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Author Topic: Arcane Archer  (Read 3554 times)

Kaninchen

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2020, 03:51:22 PM »
Comparing 10 levels of AA to 10 levels of WM, the class doesn't seem inferior when the server has so many crit immune foes:

Quote
AB and number of general feats same
HP +20 WM
Skill Points +20 AA
Non overlapping skill choices: WM Antagonize, Discipline, Parry.
AA Hide, Move Silently.
Saves AA +4 Fort
Weapon Master +1 AB for superior weapon focus in chosen weapon
AA +5 Enhancement Bonus for arrows
Misc: WM ki damage per day per level; AA imbued arrow 3 x day
 WM increased multiplier, ki critical; AA seeker arrow, hail of arrows, arrow of death

Requirements
WM +5 AB
AA +6 AB
Stats: WM 13 Int; AA none
Feats: WM weapon focus, dodge, mobility, expertise, spring attack, whirlwind attack
AA weapon focus, point blank shot
Skills: WM 4 ranks antagonize; AA none
Misc: AA one level of some arcane class

I think archery in general is tricky to balance (like guns) because against mobs it's not too great without a tank wall in front of you, but for PvP it can be devastating.

If I am understanding the gist of what Gibbs is saying here, it isn't the damage that they need needs looking at, but rather the flavor of the class. The feat progression doesn't seem to add terribly much in the ways of "arcane" to the class, aside from some progressive EB, and shooting a fireball.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2020, 03:59:10 PM »
Spoiler: show
Comparing 10 levels of AA to 10 levels of WM, the class doesn't seem inferior when the server has so many crit immune foes:

Quote
AB and number of general feats same
HP +20 WM
Skill Points +20 AA
Non overlapping skill choices: WM Antagonize, Discipline, Parry.
AA Hide, Move Silently.
Saves AA +4 Fort
Weapon Master +1 AB for superior weapon focus in chosen weapon
AA +5 Enhancement Bonus for arrows
Misc: WM ki damage per day per level; AA imbued arrow 3 x day
 WM increased multiplier, ki critical; AA seeker arrow, hail of arrows, arrow of death

Requirements
WM +5 AB
AA +6 AB
Stats: WM 13 Int; AA none
Feats: WM weapon focus, dodge, mobility, expertise, spring attack, whirlwind attack
AA weapon focus, point blank shot
Skills: WM 4 ranks antagonize; AA none
Misc: AA one level of some arcane class

I think archery in general is tricky to balance (like guns) because against mobs it's not too great without a tank wall in front of you, but for PvP it can be devastating.


If I am understanding the gist of what Gibbs is saying here, it isn't the damage that they need needs looking at, but rather the flavor of the class. The feat progression doesn't seem to add terribly much in the ways of "arcane" to the class, aside from some progressive EB, and shooting a fireball.

The OP's criticism of the class is mechanical. To quote directly:

Quote
The primary issue with seeker arrow is that it does a maximum of 8-10 damage, when you can just fire a normal arrow to deal 20. The fact that seeker arrow is the only action you can take for that round, and that it does the same damage as punching something, it makes the feat completely useless in any form of combat. Its only use is to rp with, and do fun rp shots like bending an arrow through the air around trees and such, which while fun, makes the feat seem useless. Once again a limited number of uses, the max being two, I think this feat could benefit from using the type of arrow equipped to make the damage roll. This change taking place for both seeker arrow and hail of arrows would make the feats actually useful in combat, and would make more sense than just shooting something for 4 damage.

Emphasis mine (whereas the "flavor" of trick shots is something praised about the class).

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AgentGibbs

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2020, 04:26:29 PM »
Its a mechanical recommendation to make the feats that AA does get useful. You use the WM's crit multiplier increase, and this is a huge buff to damage against a large portion of the server (and PvP), where as the feats AA gets do 3-9 damage, making them unusable in any non rp, or purely "flavor" instance. But the overall feel of a class, and the usefulness of its utility adds or subtracts from the flavor of the class. An AA as it stands can't add flavor to anything with hail of arrows other than to kill a group of grimishkas running around. While a fun instance of rp that might be, the feat is otherwise of no use. Seeker arrow is the same way, its great for rp, but only does 4-5 damage to anything it is actually used on, making it pointless to use outside of trying to one up someone in an archery competition. And as for the balance of these feats, they are one or in the case of seeker arrow, a 2x per rest use, but are also the only action that can be taken the round that it is used. By making them actually deal a reasonable amount of damage (ie the damage of the arrow equipped at the time), it means for that turn they can guarantee the damage of one arrow, whether that be seeker arrow's for sure hit, or one hit on multiple targets with hail. That roughly looks like 15-20 damage, which is only enough to finish something off that is running away, not to shift the tide of battle since it is the only action taken during that round for the AA.

Derek Jeter

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2020, 05:10:16 PM »
My PRC involves walking on a treadmill unable to move bugged getting beat in range, and im the /only/ active one, and even I think AA needs some improvement with the feats and seeker.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2020, 01:34:19 PM »
Arcane Archer is the only class that has permanent, no spell slot required +5 Enhancement bonus at range with its arrows.  If it had nothing else for the class but that it would in fact still be worth it.  It is the only class that is always ready to pierce any and all damage reduction that can in fact be bypassed.  It has some extra flavour and some of those might be fairly potent but an AA can kill any fully buffed spellcaster in a single arrow flurry without them having a darn thing they can do about it. 

The ranger has more flexibility.  Its got some handy spells.  But the fact is that the ranger is basically the paladin to the weapon master in regards to the AA relationship.  A paladin loses to a weapon master if neither is buffed.  The paladin beats the weapon master if it is buffed.  The ranger beats the AA if it is buffed, for output.  But the AA wins if it isn't. 

Making its extra toys more dangerous is a problem in of itself.  If you're going to do that, do you drop down that absolutely incredible permanent +5 EB on its archery to say a +3 or a +4 instead?  You must be aware that what you're asking for might well be getting a slice of cake that requires the rest of it to be given away for the sake of balance.

AgentGibbs

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2020, 11:47:11 PM »
There is no way that making something do regular arrow damage as the only action of the round breaks the balance of the class. When instead of attacking for 4 attacks in a round I give up those 4 attacks for 1 attack. What you are saying would make sense if these feats werent the only action the AA got that round. I am asking for the feats to be looked at because they are the only action available that round, and the fact that they do 5 damage means they are useless compared to anything that any class can do for that round. Giving them the damage of the arrow equipped in no way effects the balance of the class, other than making its feats that it can use as its only action that round viable.

Marcus Weyland

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2020, 04:05:24 AM »
Not that I'm opposed to classes getting common-sense tweaks or changes that bring them more in line with their concepts in the context of a NWN persistent world (as opposed to the P'n'P), but it occurs to me I don't know the Team's policy on balancing prestige classes.

Arcane Archers aren't the only class with some mechanically-unfavored feats. I have yet to encounter a Pale Master who utilized any of their five unique touch-attack abilities, or a shadow dancer who'd spend a round using Shadow Daze, and I've never heard of Blackguards or even Assassins getting any utility out of their Use Poison ability, dependent as it is on the presence of poison items with competitive DCs. Grimetrekker has two levels that confer no bonuses besides slightly improved water breathing, and its tenth level has nothing at all where certain other prestige classes save the best for last, so to speak.

In brief, I don't know if these prestige classes are actually meant to compare to one another in terms of combat viability, or just be accurate to the options players have in PnP. Some seem to serve a niche, allowing players to explore very specific concepts (Grimetrekker, People's / Divine Champs, Monster Hunters, Dirgists, maybe others), some seem to be powerhouses, serving a niche and also offering undeniably superior capabilities (Pale Master, Dragon Disciple, Dwarven Defender, Weapon Master, etc), and there's some grey areas as well.

So I guess I'm not sure if there's a policy about these things. Are changes often made to boost the relative combat power of certain classes, or is adherence to the PnP the only real objective?

Lyrithean

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2020, 05:26:25 AM »
As a long time Arcane Archer I'll pipe in on this thread.

There is a big difference between NWN and Pen&Paper D&D. P&P rules break in an MMO enviroment. Sometimes to the benefit of certain classes, sometimes detrimental.
In P&P as anyone who has played will be well aware. Adventures are dynamic, fluid, there is no grinding, there is a DM always present, once you clear a dungeon (crypt, caves, castle, etc) it stays cleared and item rewards and xp are predetermined and balance by the DM. Buffing is done on the fly as the players don't always know whats ahead of them and when they'll need or won't need certain things. Time doesn't flow at a static pace, sometimes days will fly in a matter of minutes or a battle that takes minutes will take over an hour.

In an MMO enviroment. There's grinding, more minmaxing to get the best build, players know where to grind for good xp or items, there is very little DM presence. The world is pretty much static and barely changes and people use that preknowledge to their advantage.

The classes were built with the P&P enviroment in mind and when NWN was created they tried to get the P&P aspect right as best they could. But some classes had their abilities condensed and altered to make things simpler and easier to play. They didn't figure on the players going crazy over the game. When first released Permanent servers were not really a thing that was thought of. The game has been going for 18 years and a lot of it has evolved and changed over those 18 years.. Most of it for the better.

However sadly I don't think the Prestige classes have really done much evolving since they were added to the game in 2003 in the Shadows of Undrentide expansion.

I know Arcane Archer hasn't changed much since it's original creation and is still basically the same simplified version that was originally created.

Here's the original version from the Shadows on Undrentide- (And yes I am aware that someone already quoted a good part of this)
Quote
Arcane Archer
Master of the Elven war bands, the arcane archer is a warrior skilled in using magic to supplement his combat prowess. Fighters, rangers, paladins and barbarians become Arcane archers to add a little magic to their combat abilities. Conversely, wizards and sorcerers may adopt this prestige class to add combat capabilities to their repertoires.

Hit Dice: d8
Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
Skill Points: 4 + Int Modifier

Requirements
To qualify as an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Race: Elf or Half-elf
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Feats: Weapon Focus Longbow or Weapon Focus Shortbow, Point blank shot
Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells.

Abilities
  • Enchant Arrow: The arcane archer is able to shoot arrows with increased precision and damage. This ability is automatically applied to all arrows fired and increases with experience. +1 at 1st level;+2 at 3rd level;+3 at 5th level;+4 at 7th level;+5 at 9th level.
  • Imbue Arrow: Beginning at 2nd level, the arcane archer is able to shoot a fireball arrow three times a day.
  • Seeker Arrow: At 4th level the arcane archer can fire one arrow per day that cannot miss. At 6th level he can fire two seeker arrows per day.
  • Hail of Arrows: - At 8th level and beyond the arcane archer is able to fire an arrow at each and every target within range.
  • Arrow of death: This ability, gained at 10th level, allows the arcane archer to, once per day, fire an arrow that can instantly kill an opponent.

This has pretty much remained the same for 17 years, the only change I can think of is that it used to require 1st level spellcasting ability, now it only needs arcane cantrips.

Now here is the P&P version

Quote
Arcane Archer
Master of the elven war bands, the arcane archer is a warrior skilled in using magic to supplement her combat prowess. Beyond the woods, arcane archers gain renown throughout entire kingdoms for their supernatural accuracy with a bow and their ability to imbue their arrows with magic. In a group, they can strike fear into an entire army.
     Fighters, rangers and paladins, and barbarians become arcane archers to add a little magic to their combat abilities. Conversely wizards and sorcerors may take this prestige class to add combat capabilities to their repertoire. Monks, clerics, druids, rogues and bards rarely become arcane arcane archers.
     NPC arcane archers often lead units of normal archers or form small, elite units formed entirely of arcane archers. These units are one of the prime reasons that the elves are so feared in battle.

Hit Die: d8
Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria
Race: Elf or Half-elf
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Feats: Point Blank shot, Precise shot, Weapon focus (longbow or shortbow)
Spells: Ability to cast 1st level arcane spells

Class Skills
The arcane archer's class skills are Craft, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spot, Survival, and Use Rope.

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Abilities
  • Enchant Arrow: At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes enchanted, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike magic weapons enchanted by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or money to accomplish this task. However, an archer's magic arrows only function for her. For every two levels of arcane archer the character advances past 1st level in the prestige class, the magic arrows she creates gain +1 greater potency (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and +5 at 9th level).
  • Imbue Arrow: At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains this spell-like ability, allowing her to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered upon where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast of the spell is wasted.
  • Seeker Arrow: At 4th level, the arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target even around corners. Only an unavoidable obstacle or the end of the arrow's range prevents the arrow's flight. For example, if the target is within a windowless chamber with the door closed, the arrow cannot enter. This ability negates cover and concealment modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. This is a spell-like ability. (Shooting the arrow is part of the action.)
  • Phase Arrow: At 6th level, the arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (A wall of force, a wall of fire, or the like stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is tolled normally. This is a spell-like ability. (Shooting the arrow is part of the action.)
  • Hail of Arrows: In lieu of her regular attacks, once per day the 8th-level arcane archer can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer's primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow. This is a spell-like ability.
  • Arrow of Death: At 10th level, the arcane archer can enchant an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow's attack, to make a Fortitude save (DC 20) or be slain immediately. It takes one day to create an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The enchantment lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.

I've highlighted the main obvious differences in the P&P version of the class compared to the NWN version. The differences that aren't shown are that for seeker and hail of arrows the archer uses whatever arrow that is equipped.

The whole writeup in regards to examples for why different classes might take the class is a little lazy IMHO. Warriors and barbarians who want to add magic to their class don't need to take Arcane archer, they have to take levels in some sort of arcane class first anyways. Paladins and Rangers already have magical abilities. Conversely, by the time a sorceror or wizard gets the +6 AB requirement (12th level) they're already well on their way to becoming powerhouses. That whole addition to the class description sounds like the prestige class is a hobby. Like saying warriors might multi-class to bard so they can sing better around the campfire.

Now playing this class for the how ever many years I've been playing it I can honestly say that seeker arrow and arrow of death are laughable at best in their utility, followed by hail of arrows and then imbue arrow in order of worst to best. And I agree with AgentGibbs wish to see these changed. I personally would like to see the class become better inline with the P&P version. It wouldn't overbalance the class into being overpowered.

  • Enabling Seeker arrow and hail of arrows to make use of the currently equipped arrows wouldn't increase them that much but would make them something that would be more useable.
  • Imbue arrow is a little more difficult I think to script into the game as the P&P version makes use of any area of effect spell that the character knows.
  • Arrow of Death is one of those instances where the P&P version of the ability breaks in an MMO, it wasn't made with the idea that opponents would be stacked with buffs or have their difficulty rating pumped to compensate for the overpowered MMO Character build. A little boost in the DC  wouldn't make it that much better but a little more effective.

Now Arcane archer isn't the only Prestige class that could use some love, and it's a free world so anyone can post their own thread on the Prestige class they love.
Anyways, love it or hate it thats my take on this debate.

EO

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2020, 11:10:55 AM »
For now, I'll fix a bug with the special arrow abilities that made them not pierce DR. The physical damage will now properly pierce DR based on the arrow's enhancement bonus. As for the rest, it's more involving and a lot of it is hardcoded so won't be edited for now.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2020, 02:22:11 PM »
Are changes often made to boost the relative combat power of certain classes, or is adherence to the PnP the only real objective?


I'd say change occurs primarily based on Dev desire and the difficulty in coding required. Perceived impact on server performance is also a consideration.

Whether a Dev will desire to make the change can be influenced by citing canon 3/3.5 sources.

Balance also comes into play, but most of the time (at least since I've been on the server) a class will seldom ever gain power in contravention of 3.0/3.5. It's much more likely in my experience something will be nerfed because, regardless of 3/3.5, it is causing problems in balance or playability.

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AgentGibbs

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2020, 03:55:54 PM »
For now, I'll fix a bug with the special arrow abilities that made them not pierce DR. The physical damage will now properly pierce DR based on the arrow's enhancement bonus. As for the rest, it's more involving and a lot of it is hardcoded so won't be edited for now.

Which things would be hard coded? I just ask so I have an idea of what to keep asking about and what isn't possible to change.

EO

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2020, 08:10:59 PM »
For now, I'll fix a bug with the special arrow abilities that made them not pierce DR. The physical damage will now properly pierce DR based on the arrow's enhancement bonus. As for the rest, it's more involving and a lot of it is hardcoded so won't be edited for now.

Which things would be hard coded? I just ask so I have an idea of what to keep asking about and what isn't possible to change.

Well, Imbue Allow would be impractical to change; you'd need to change most area of effect spells, add checks, etc. The other abilities that affect one arrow may work but would require us creating custom on-hit spells and those aren't the most efficient. Enhance Arrow is 100% hardcoded. I may look into the class some more at some point but it's understandably a low priority. I don't think it's as weak as some portray it to to be, but it could use some love eventually.

Lyrithean

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2020, 10:52:28 PM »
Thanks for looking into it EO.. even a little is much appreciated. :)

I was reading the Beamdog forums and was reminded that NWN was originally 3rd edition, which only had the base classes, and the PRC's were added with the Shadows of Undrentide and made as close as possible to the 3.5 edition as possible using what was already in place. Now there was some posts about fully integrating the 3.5 edition rules into the game, but couldn't find any confirmation that this was happening, possibly opening up new possibilities with classes and feats, but it would break the original modules that came with the game.
Anyone know anymore about this?

AgentGibbs

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Re: Arcane Archer
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2020, 12:14:32 AM »
For now, I'll fix a bug with the special arrow abilities that made them not pierce DR. The physical damage will now properly pierce DR based on the arrow's enhancement bonus. As for the rest, it's more involving and a lot of it is hardcoded so won't be edited for now.

Which things would be hard coded? I just ask so I have an idea of what to keep asking about and what isn't possible to change.

Well, Imbue Allow would be impractical to change; you'd need to change most area of effect spells, add checks, etc. The other abilities that affect one arrow may work but would require us creating custom on-hit spells and those aren't the most efficient. Enhance Arrow is 100% hardcoded. I may look into the class some more at some point but it's understandably a low priority. I don't think it's as weak as some portray it to to be, but it could use some love eventually.

Sounds good, thanks for looking into all this.  :D