Author Topic: Muse - toggle mode  (Read 2566 times)

Leezil

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Muse - toggle mode
« on: April 17, 2020, 05:49:57 AM »
Is there a way to make Muse a toggle-able ability? That would allow a player to stifle bonuses when in their judgement it isn't appropriate.

As it is, it can give a person's presence away, provide bonuses to people who can't see or hear the Muse, and in my personal experience cause people to Muse chase :P

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Iridni Ren

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2020, 09:00:09 AM »
Is there a way to make Muse a toggle-able ability? That would allow a player to stifle bonuses when in their judgement it isn't appropriate.

As it is, it can give a person's presence away, provide bonuses to people who can't see or hear the Muse, and in my personal experience cause people to Muse chase :P

This would be contrary to the feat's description: "His very presence inspires passion and stirs others to works of creative genius."

Moreover, such people likely would attract stalkers.

I *thought* the feat worked based on line of sight already, but I could be mistaken. That would seem appropriate, but I don't think it should be toggle-able.

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Leezil

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2020, 09:53:42 AM »
Is there a way to make Muse a toggle-able ability? That would allow a player to stifle bonuses when in their judgement it isn't appropriate.

As it is, it can give a person's presence away, provide bonuses to people who can't see or hear the Muse, and in my personal experience cause people to Muse chase :P

This would be contrary to the feat's description: "His very presence inspires passion and stirs others to works of creative genius."

Moreover, such people likely would attract stalkers.

I *thought* the feat worked based on line of sight already, but I could be mistaken. That would seem appropriate, but I don't think it should be toggle-able.

It may be that the writer implied that to mean some sort of magical ability that works even when hidden or simply not in the same room, but to me that seems unlikely. If LoS prevents it that fixes the issue.
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Arawn

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2020, 09:56:52 AM »
Yeah, I don't think we get to choose if other people are inspired by us or not!
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Leezil

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2020, 10:59:28 AM »
Yeah, I don't think we get to choose if other people are inspired by us or not!

Does the feat take into account visibility? For example if the person is in Stealth or Invisible?
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Onkel Bob

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2020, 11:12:32 AM »
I think it's entirely reasonable that we should be able to choose who is inspired by our character's presence. A high-ranking priest of the Lawgiver would have a very inspiring presence for his followers, but is likely feared and hated by opposing factions. Or maybe that priest can inspire creativity in his enemies too and use that as an argument for his religion's superiority. In either case, it's much more interesting if it is a trait the player has control of rather than that they have to roll with having to inspire literally everyone regardless of who their character is.

Being able to toggle the feat on or off at will would empower the roleplaying of possession of the feat.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2020, 11:16:42 AM »
Yeah, I don't see why not, really, though the way we control other auras is by hostiling people before using them.

Do hostiles receive the Muse benefit?

Can we get confirmation on whether or not line of sight is how Muse grants its benefit? It would be very sad if people were just watching their skills page to notice the presence of, say, a sneaking muse, or a muse who has not yet entered the room but is on the other side of the wall. Up there with other metagame detection exploits.
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Arawn

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2020, 11:21:02 AM »
I think it's entirely reasonable that we should be able to choose who is inspired by our character's presence. A high-ranking priest of the Lawgiver would have a very inspiring presence for his followers, but is likely feared and hated by opposing factions. Or maybe that priest can inspire creativity in his enemies too and use that as an argument for his religion's superiority. In either case, it's much more interesting if it is a trait the player has control of rather than that they have to roll with having to inspire literally everyone regardless of who their character is.

Being able to toggle the feat on or off at will would empower the roleplaying of possession of the feat.

That's not what the Muse feat is, though. It's not religion- or culture-specific. The person's presence is inspiring, as described. You can hate someone and still inspire them. It's not anything you do--it's a background feat, so it's what you are.

If hostiles don't get the bonus (and I can't remember) it would be because they're in open conflict, not because of their position one way or the other.
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Agony

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2020, 11:34:52 AM »
To me, a muse is something like Helen of Troy. Not so much about what they did, but simply something about them.  Some je ne sais quoi.

Also, I don't see inspirations as only a positive emotion, but rather some sort of emotion strong enough to drive creativity and skill. If you are able to turn that on and off at will, it misses the point of the feat.


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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2020, 11:35:28 AM »
Also, if hostile denies the feat's use, then we already have a way of toggling it :)

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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2020, 11:37:58 AM »
Also, if hostile denies the feat's use, then we already have a way of toggling it :)

This should be tested and applied if discovered to work, because I'm pretty sure stalking people is one of the things that could conceivably lead to PvP if the stalker refuses to stop being a nuisance after being told to go away.
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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2020, 11:47:25 AM »
Also, if hostile denies the feat's use, then we already have a way of toggling it :)

This should be tested and applied if discovered to work, because I'm pretty sure stalking people is one of the things that could conceivably lead to PvP if the stalker refuses to stop being a nuisance after being told to go away.

I agree it should be tested.

I'm not sure muses should be able to deny others the use of crafting stations (telling them to "go away") as though their ability somehow means they own the place.

Again, the feat description and that you can take it only at first level (something inherent rather than acquired) indicate that it's a passive ability. If someone is actively pestering you, then that seems a legitimate reason for making her hostile. But trying to prevent someone from passively soaking up your muse benefit seems like small potatoes (and metagaming) to me.

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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2020, 11:59:49 AM »
In that case the muse can be the one to walk away. I specifically meant stalkers -- stalking implies unwanted following; if the muse is the one at the crafting station pestering someone not to use it, they're the one being the nuisance that deserves a knuckle sandwich.
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Agony

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2020, 12:12:36 PM »
I don't even think being hostile should deny them the bonus. The entire point is that you innately inspire someone, if you want to or not. I am 100% sure stalkers still feel inspired by their targets, no matter how angry the target gets about it. Rather than "turn off" the ability, you should deal with it ICly as you would if someone were stalking them even if they did not have the feat. After all, the feat is a mechanical representation of something you PC would not actually have any knowledge of being able to "do". It's like turning off Luck of Heroes or Strong Soul, or even demonstrating any kind of IC awareness that they have it.

ETA: I do believe it should require awareness of their presence, however, if that is not already a consideration. But I am 85% sure it does account for perception of the "object".
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 12:14:39 PM by fenixphire »


Iridni Ren

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2020, 12:19:53 PM »
I don't even think being hostile should deny them the bonus. The entire point is that you innately inspire someone, if you want to or not. I am 100% sure stalkers still feel inspired by their targets, no matter how angry the target gets about it. Rather than "turn off" the ability, you should deal with it ICly as you would if someone were stalking them even if they did not have the feat. After all, the feat is a mechanical representation of something you PC would not actually have any knowledge of being able to "do". It's like turning off Luck of Heroes or Strong Soul, or even demonstrating any kind of IC awareness that they have it.

ETA: I do believe it should require awareness of their presence, however, if that is not already a consideration. But I am 85% sure it does account for perception of the "object".

Generally, I am okay with everything you say here. The only reason I support that hostiling should turn it off is the feat says "All allies."

There are also benefits from it that would apply to enemies in combat situations, not just crafting.

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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2020, 12:29:27 PM »
Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that. The feat represents being in the presence of greatness, sure. But the description says allies, so it would be malfunctioning if it grants its bonus to enemies.
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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2020, 12:36:50 PM »

Generally, I am okay with everything you say here. The only reason I support that hostiling should turn it off is the feat says "All allies."

There are also benefits from it that would apply to enemies in combat situations, not just crafting.

That's a fair point! I am still of the personal belief that it should apply anyway and that "all allies" could be removed, BUT that is only personal preference to better match the theme of the feat. I completely see the consideration to mechanical balance in it not applying to hostiles, though, and have no strong objection to such.


APorg

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2020, 01:07:09 PM »
To me, a muse is something like Helen of Troy. Not so much about what they did, but simply something about them.  Some je ne sais quoi.

Also, I don't see inspirations as only a positive emotion, but rather some sort of emotion strong enough to drive creativity and skill. If you are able to turn that on and off at will, it misses the point of the feat.

Agree 100%.

A lot of stories about muses are quite dark, too, with horrible things happening to the muses because the people they inspire become obsessed with them.  Being able to "turn off" being a Muse just doesn't fit the feat's theme.
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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2020, 01:13:11 PM »
Remember that in NWN, except for parties (which we don't have), all allies are just non-hostile players. It makes sense people who are hostile (meaning imminent violence) can't actually get the bonus while crafting.
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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2020, 01:18:50 PM »
I'm not really sure who would be crafting in combat or what reason someone would have for being hostile to the muse while crafting.

As for having it be toggled on/off, I don't really agree with it for the points Fenixphire has made. On top of that, if a character is stalking a Muse, or there's a Muse chase, that's roleplay being generated. Conflict roleplay is still roleplay. There's your pc involved, the stalker(s), and anyone else getting in the middle. It has the potential to create an interesting story involving a good number of players and I don't think that potential should be removed.

Leezil

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2020, 02:16:37 PM »
My personal suggestion still has more to do with the player being able to use their judgement to determine whether the feat makes any IC sense, for example if they are hidden, etc. I've been testing and haven't been able to verify one way or the other.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2020, 02:42:42 PM »
I wouldn't call it cheesing to hostile someone and deny them the Perform bonus which might upgrade their Bardsong especially if combat is imminent. That's what is really in question here; the feat can be any way it wants, as long as its description is accurate.

I would call it cheesing, and would report them, if they detected a Muse via their Perform skill going up, even though the Muse can't be perceived. How can you be inspired by the presence of someone who is not, to your knowledge, present?
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Hypatia

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2020, 02:50:34 PM »
Seems like you'd need to be able to see someone to be inspired by their presence. And if they stick a bag over their head... they wouldn't be very muse-like. I agree with a toggle. I guess going hostile does it.

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2020, 03:00:54 PM »
I wouldn't call it cheesing to hostile someone and deny them the Perform bonus which might upgrade their Bardsong especially if combat is imminent.

That seems circular in that combat being imminent is the cause for hostiling, rather than anything to do with the Muse feat. It's the same as hostiling before casting a "Mass" buff to prevent buffing those you're getting ready to PvP.

Quote
I would call it cheesing, and would report them, if they detected a Muse via their Perform skill going up, even though the Muse can't be perceived. How can you be inspired by the presence of someone who is not, to your knowledge, present?

Report them for what? They can't help it if they're inspired if that's how the mechanic works.

I agree that it should work only if the muse is perceived, but it doesn't *have* to work that way if Devs don't code it that way.

How many players check their Perform skills as a way of seeing whether a Muse might be around?  That seems like an almost never occurrence, and they would be doing it only if they already suspected it. So I'm not sure how the other player would ever know it to report it.

As far as the boost to crafting, yes, they're more likely to notice that passively, but they have to be at a crafting station and actually crafting. They're not setting out to detect the muse. So maybe they do notice that it seems strangely easier to craft.

I think the feat should work only if perceived. But if it works even when the muse isn't perceived, I think the instances in which players would be using it to detect stealth are negligible.

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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Muse - toggle mode
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2020, 03:12:09 PM »
I wouldn't call it cheesing to hostile someone and deny them the Perform bonus which might upgrade their Bardsong especially if combat is imminent.

That seems circular in that combat being imminent is the cause for hostiling, rather than anything to do with the Muse feat. It's the same as hostiling before casting a "Mass" buff to prevent buffing those you're getting ready to PvP.

It's not circular, though. It is the same as hostiling before casting a mass buff, which is the expected course of action and fully permitted within the rules.

Quote
I would call it cheesing, and would report them, if they detected a Muse via their Perform skill going up, even though the Muse can't be perceived. How can you be inspired by the presence of someone who is not, to your knowledge, present?

Report them for what? They can't help it if they're inspired if that's how the mechanic works.

I agree that it should work only if the muse is perceived, but it doesn't *have* to work that way if Devs don't code it that way.

How many players check their Perform skills as a way of seeing whether a Muse might be around?  That seems like an almost never occurrence, and they would be doing it only if they already suspected it. So I'm not sure how the other player would ever know it to report it.

This is in reference to the first post I made, which was replying to Leezil mentioning that it could "give away your presence." I'm saying if someone is not detected (e.g. different room, hidden, invisible) and someone else looks at their skills page, sees they have a +2, and then blurts out "We're not alone," that's definitely metagaming. I only posted about it because Leezil mentioned it, and honestly I can't imagine any other situation in which it would give away your presence, besides being disguised.

edit: fixed a quote link lol
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 03:40:03 PM by SardineTheAncestor »
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