Buff Shadow Fiend/Shadow Lord Summons from Death Domain, or replace them

[tylernwn]

The Problem:
Both of these summons are terrible. This is owing mostly to their comically low attack bonus. For example the shadowfiend has +3 AB, which could be surpassed by a level 1 wizard with 16 str.

This is not good for a mid to late game summon, which is when you can unlock them.

Anecdote:
This was driven home hard when I tested mine. I sent one of these against a single Agarat (cr 4-5?) and the shadow fiend was unable to defeat it over the duration of the ability. This means this summon is essentially useless. As this is a one hittable, no threat, enemy for my main character.

Solutions:
Obviously these creatures need to either have a much higher AB, or to make non-stop shadow attacks.

I believe the actual shadow fiends encountered in the forests of Barovia are much, much stronger than this. So maybe we should replace the summon with that?

If the devs are open to it, I would even say to completely replace these two summons with other shadow plane creatures. Maybe a greater shadow and a shadow demon? Those are also in the module.

[Hallvor Hadiya]

I can't say I see anything wrong with this, even with the suggested change it still can't compete with a player of the equivalent or even lower level, as it would be impossible to solo with one even buffed it does not cause issue with the dungeon experience. And either needs to be changed to reflect its status as a mid to late game summon, or simply removed as this is the core feature of the domain and seems nothing if not anaemic.

[Leezil]

Agree, shadows should be scary.

[Maverick]

+1 As someone who has seen it used in combat they come off very weak.

[Kaninchen]

I play a shadow dancer, and can confirm Summon Shadow is not great.  In shadow dancer progression, at least it supposedly gets stronger for every 3 ranks in the class. Do death domain clerics have a similar growth of their summon?

[tylernwn]

I play a shadow dancer, and can confirm Summon Shadow is not great.  In shadow dancer progression, at least it supposedly gets stronger for every 3 ranks in the class. Do death domain clerics have a similar growth of their summon?

Unfortunately no. The summon doesnt get any stronger.

[Kaninchen]

Also curious if Shadow Affinity buffs the ones clerics summon.

[SardineTheAncestor]

The Death Domain Cleric gets to summon the Shadow at level 2. It is much stronger than the summoner and can easily carry you through fights, provided there are people around you who are okay with it. It scales up, but it does not scale very well, becoming more of a thematic thing than an actual boon in combat. You can read about it here: https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Summon_shadow_(shadow_conjuration)

If this is not functioning, that is a bug. If it is functioning, it's just that the lord isn't much more powerful than the others.

[tylernwn]

The Death Domain Cleric gets to summon the Shadow at level 2. It is much stronger than the summoner and can easily carry you through fights, provided there are people around you who are okay with it. It scales up, but it does not scale very well, becoming more of a thematic thing than an actual boon in combat. You can read about it here: https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Summon_shadow_(shadow_conjuration)

If this is not functioning, that is a bug. If it is functioning, it's just that the lord isn't much more powerful than the others.

I know what you are talking about, but what you are saying is misleading. I don't really want to talk about it since I feel like it will take focus away from what I am discussing.

However to address your point. If you take the feat Shadow Affinity with Death Domain, you will then get access to a Shadow Mastiff (CR6) at level 2. A strong summon. However, having actually tested this out, I guarantee you that this summon is actually not as useful as you think. Furthermore, the argument that it comes at the expense of all other summons isn't a strong argument.

Here is a rundown of the summon negative plane avatar ability, start to finish. You get access to 4 summons in total:
1. Shadow - it is “cr 3”. It is very weak. Even at level 2 this is not going to be helping you much. For example 3 risen skeletons (cr 1-2) will beat it. This was my experience
2. Shadow Mastiff - It is cr 6. It is strong if you take shadow affinity since you can access it at level 2, otherwise you will get it at level 8. However please note, that even if you take this at level 2, everything it kills won’t give xp (this was my experience). So you can't use it for power gaming. Nevertheless, I think this is actually the strongest summon out of them all.
3. Shadow Fiend - Topic of this post.
4. Shadow Lord - Topic of this post.

Saying this domain is overpowered because you can take an extra feat to get (admittedly) a very strong summon early on, that doesnt give you any xp, isn't a reason to not balance the later level summons better. It's more an argument about why Shadow Affinity should be removed or rebalanced. However that is a different topic than this one.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Well, I didn't say it was overpowered. In my experience the level 2 cleric's shadow can hold its own where the level 2 cleric cannot.

I don't think it's misleading to say the shadow starts out useful and gradually becomes weaker. Like all summons, it just gets outclassed unless buffed a hell of a lot, and even then, it's just going to disappear.

[tylernwn]

Well, I didn't say it was overpowered. In my experience the level 2 cleric's shadow can hold its own where the level 2 cleric cannot.

I don't think it's misleading to say the shadow starts out useful and gradually becomes weaker. Like all summons, it just gets outclassed unless buffed a hell of a lot, and even then, it's just going to disappear.

Yeah sorry. I misread your comment. I thought it was about the strong summon justifying the weak ones. I will correct it when I get a bit more time.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Oh yeah, definitely not saying that, just a misunderstanding between us is all.  I find the domain underwhelming too. If I'm reading this right, a level 15 cleric unlocks it, yet it only has 22 AC, 65 HP, and 8 AB? It's just not capable at all. It's a spooky thing that follows you around and little else, unless you want to bully a low level player with it.

[tylernwn]

Anyway to discuss some tangible ideas:

1. Adjust the scripts, and keep the creatures the same:
Keep the same summons, but change their script so that they make shadow attacks every round, or every other round. This seems to be what their stats were balanced for; heavy use of touch attacks. Every round these creatures are not making shadow attacks, they are missing.

This simple fix works reasonably well, as it gives the summons their intended niche; using shadow attacks to drains targets to 0 str, after which the living target instantly dies. I think shadow attacks already have this worked in by design. So it's just an AI adjustment to use the attack regularly and consistently. Currently, (I believe) the death domain versions do not ever use shadow attacks; so the summons are completely defanged.

2. Fix the Attack Bonus, on a creature that was designed to make touch attacks but never does:
I think +5 to their Attack Bonus will probably put them on the right path. Even better if some of this come from increased str (and therefore increased damage). This would not make the summons good, but at least they would not embarrass themselves against low level enemies.

3. Use the rules as intended to replace the whole roster, with other valid options:
I believe in pnp you are not restricted to summoning only these specific shadow plane creatures. Nwn arbitrarily chose these ones. However others are valid by the rules as well. So we can pick ones that give a reasonable progression.

[Tabula Rasa]

Sorry to be a post necromancer but are there any plans to adjust the summons?
I made the mistake of taking Shadow Affinity feat... But it only made the summon weaker.
At level 8 the summon is weaker than it would be at level 1. The level 1 summon has drain attack and damage reduction, the second form has two attacks/round. But the Shadow Fiend at level 8 has only one attack/round, no damage reduction, not enough ab to hit anything and it cant damage werecreatures or other shadows.