Author Topic: Skill point adjustment  (Read 1249 times)

Iridni Ren

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Skill point adjustment
« on: March 29, 2020, 04:12:49 PM »
This is an idea to help address several balance issues on the server I've heard mentioned. The numbers and classes affected are easy enough to adjust and are only a "starting bid" :)

All classes receive an additional skill point per level for the first five levels. A way to program this might be a free feat similar to Quick to Master that everyone gets, regardless of class, race, etc.

This will help address that POTM has extra skills that many classes are unable even to dip because of a scarcity of points. Low levels who haven't yet acquired gear will also have a few more points until they do so.

Above 15th level, the following classes do not receive skill points at all:

cleric, paladin, wizard, druid

Maybe some prestige classes. I don't know enough about them, but the classes above are usually described as the most powerful. Bards as well, but bards are a skill-based class, so nerfing high-level bards would be better done through some other means.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 07:04:44 PM by Iridni Ren »

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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Stat point adjustment
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 04:28:07 PM »
There's something I like about this, particularly the implications that more people will end up multiclassing if they want to get more out of their skillpoints, and the skill bonuses for fresher characters.
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Phantasia

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Re: Stat point adjustment
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2020, 04:52:30 PM »
Let's keep in mind that this server does not use vanilla feat progression. You should see how feat starved people are on Arelith are, or any other server that does not have custom progression before perhaps suggesting we add even more to classes (and races) that already have an immense well of versatility through spells/racial feats.

The working solution for any of the classes you mentioned is to multiclass as a rogue, if they wanted additional skill points, and that works quite well for all of them except paladin, which has access to People's Champion (which isn't even restricted to Ezra or the Lawgiver any more if memory serves right).

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "do not receive any skill points at all," they surely do, unless there is some bug, though I gather you are not pleased wit the 2+INT skill point bonus for clerics/paladins/wizards. One of those classes has intelligence as a primary statistic, so they get plenty of skills and feats. And it is very possible for a cleric/paladin to invest in more intelligence as well.

Regardless of this, there's plenty of items to boost skill points in the game world, it's a matter of finding them all, and your character can do just about anything that isn't entirely out of their purview (i.e. UMD). With the sheer amount of potions, spells, and gear, you can soft cap some skills at 50. While this does not sound like an ideal solution, it does take a time investment, and lets these classes get a little more without having to multiclass even. Or if they do, to get much more than they ever would have had.

Think things are fine as they are now, but maybe clerics could see more prestige classes, as well as paladins that aren't just the ones we have now.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 04:59:18 PM by Phantasia »
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Stat point adjustment
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2020, 05:53:43 PM »

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "do not receive any skill points at all," they surely do, unless there is some bug, though I gather you are not pleased wit the 2+INT skill point bonus for clerics/paladins/wizards. One of those classes has intelligence as a primary statistic, so they get plenty of skills and feats. And it is very possible for a cleric/paladin to invest in more intelligence as well.


Most of your post is based on the misunderstanding above. I'm suggesting a change that everyone get +1 Skill Point / Level for the first five levels. A second change would be the classes listed would not receive any additional skill points after level 15.

Some examples:

A fighter winds up a net +5 skill points from level 5 on. This would be the result for everyone other than the classes I listed.

A 15th level human cleric with 10 Int also has +5 skill points as a result.

At 16th level, however, the cleric does not receive whatever points she would have been otherwise entitled to (3). She is now only +2 net previous to the change. At 17th, she is net -1, until at 20th she would be net -10. The nerf is almost inconsequential to all but the highest levels of the strongest classes.

I had not thought of the multiclassing aspect Sardine mentioned, but this could indeed be an incentive to multiclass casters. As pure casters are considered stronger, this probably is a positive balancing aspect as well. As paladins have limited multiclassing options, perhaps they should be removed from my suggested list.




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Re: Stat point adjustment
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2020, 06:41:54 PM »
 Stats and Skills are generally seen as two separate mechanics. Using the terms interchangeably (as in your leading post) will undoubtedly lead to some confusion. As I thought you were referring to what most people consider 'stats' to be: "Ability Scores".

 That said, I'm all for expanded systems- though this is light compared to my apocalyptic visions.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Skill point adjustment
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2020, 07:05:19 PM »
D-oh!

You're right, and I've edited the topic name accordingly :)

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Khornite

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Re: Skill point adjustment
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2020, 07:22:42 PM »
I think more skill points is good, but less skill points just kind of dampens RP. A great way to statistically represent a character's progression is by picking up a new skill and training in it, whether it be open lock, tumble, lore, or use magic device. This suggestion kind of removes that after level 15 and also is fairly unrealistic to think people just stop learning things after that point.
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Re: Skill point adjustment
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2020, 07:41:20 PM »
I'm hoping Beamdog will go the other way, and instead offer the option to remove the Discipline skill, which would bring us closer to 3.5e, and would effectively result in +1 skill point for most builds too.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Skill point adjustment
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2020, 07:46:54 PM »
I think more skill points is good, but less skill points just kind of dampens RP. A great way to statistically represent a character's progression is by picking up a new skill and training in it, whether it be open lock, tumble, lore, or use magic device. This suggestion kind of removes that after level 15 and also is fairly unrealistic to think people just stop learning things after that point.

My argument is from game balance rather than realism.

To your point, however, we have a level cap that implies people just stop learning (gaining experience) completely at five levels higher. This change indicates that certain classes, as they focus ever more on specific parts of their profession such as the highest circles of magic, can no longer progress beyond where they currently are. If they do want to continue progressing in these other skills, they must multi-class and give up maximizing that most difficult knowledge of their primary class.

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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Skill point adjustment
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2020, 03:41:21 AM »
As far as I know the skillpoints arent given on a per level basis in the 2da, its just one line of set values per class. Without editing the character file or temporarily giving someone +2 intelligence for the first 5 levels, I dont think extra skillpoints can be given like this.

Background bonuses offer a small amount of skillpoints at character generation, I think this is fine enough.

Quick to master is a placeholder feat I believe, you get the skillpoint for being human, not for having the feat.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 03:42:54 AM by zDark Shadowz »

Arawn

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Re: Skill point adjustment
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2020, 03:57:00 AM »
All classes receive an additional skill point per level for the first five levels. A way to program this might be a free feat similar to Quick to Master that everyone gets, regardless of class, race, etc.

NWNX can handle this. Implementation isn't the problem.

This will help address that POTM has extra skills that many classes are unable even to dip because of a scarcity of points.

You've mistaken a feature for a bug--this is exactly what we want. We've worked very hard to make things this way. You are not supposed to be able to take everything. You have to choose, and your choices are significant, because they can indeed cut off areas of progression as you develop. That you've noticed this means that it is working as intended. We don't see this as a problem, we see it as a goal. We think skills are in a pretty good place. We may even add a few more going forward.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 03:58:42 AM by Arawn »
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Skill point adjustment
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2020, 07:50:29 AM »
Spoiler: show
All classes receive an additional skill point per level for the first five levels. A way to program this might be a free feat similar to Quick to Master that everyone gets, regardless of class, race, etc.

NWNX can handle this. Implementation isn't the problem.

This will help address that POTM has extra skills that many classes are unable even to dip because of a scarcity of points.


You've mistaken a feature for a bug--this is exactly what we want.
Spoiler: show
We've worked very hard to make things this way. You are not supposed to be able to take everything. You have to choose, and your choices are significant, because they can indeed cut off areas of progression as you develop. That you've noticed this means that it is working as intended. We don't see this as a problem, we see it as a goal. We think skills are in a pretty good place. We may even add a few more going forward.


Not at all. The main point of this topic and suggestion is to address balance issues that EO has mentioned many times regarding certain classes, mostly high level casters. I would not casually blur the distinction between the side effect of more skill choices--intended or not--and a genuine "bug." But it is a complaint I've seen.

Having five more skill points won't make anyone able to master any given skill, but it might mean an additional language slot, for example. Or a +1 to AC.

What you address, however, is an incidental, rather than the major reasons for my post. From the earlier threads:

Right, but once again the time spent developing this can better be spent developing classes that aren't top tier classes (as druids, clerics and arcane casters are).

Once again, the stance is pretty clear at this point; if or when casters are brought down to a more manageable level, then we can look at side upgrades. You can agree that there are plenty of classes that need more attention than pure casters.

I'm fine with where clerics are myself :)

One idea that comes up pretty regularly is decreasing the server's overall level cap because--as was also discussed in the other thread--the difficulty for DMs to balance encounters and similar balance problems for AMPCs/MPCs. This suggestion:

* Is a "partial" lower level cap. Certain classes do not level beyond 15 in one significant aspect of the game.

* Reduces the power creep of those classes at the point where most would say they progressively become the most out of line with other classes.

* Buffs low levels slightly.

To be sure, if the Devs don't want to toss low levels the slight increase in skill points, then only the second part of the suggestion could be implemented. I think the change would go down better with players, however, if it was seen as taking a little bit from the richest PCs and giving something to everyone, rather than just another nerf.

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Arawn

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Re: Skill point adjustment
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2020, 07:58:34 AM »
If neither of the issues you mentioned are the actual issues you're trying to address, then you went about this a bit backwards. Start by enumerating the actual problems as you see them and which you're trying to address here, then suggest solutions. Simply saying "balance problems as mentioned elsewhere," even if you cite a post that mentions other non-specific balance issues, is so vague as to preclude any meaningful discussion.

We have no intention of lowering the level cap, because of how our (ridiculously large) amount of content is balanced and tweaked. Likewise removing end-game progression.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 08:02:13 AM by Arawn »
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tylernwn

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Re: Skill point adjustment
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2020, 09:20:09 AM »
The skill system seems fine to me. You just have to plan accordingly. It also creates room for the skillful to really shine. Which is nice in a way too.