Author Topic: Summoning Streams  (Read 1520 times)

Ken14

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Summoning Streams
« on: March 29, 2020, 10:19:20 AM »
Ken here, yet with another conjuration suggestion. Sorry, fellas!  ;)


So, this is something I've seen employed in other servers, and I think it might be a neat concept: Summoning Streams, aka making the summon monster spell call up something specific.

For example:

Let's say it's a feat you pick : Summoning Stream (Creature). Said creatures being iconic to gothic horror and/or the server in general. Bats, wolves, spiders, ect....maybe some more esoteric ones, like Scorpions?

Anyway, once you pick up the feat, the summon monster feat should only let you call up that kinda critter. Frankly, you don't even need to implement other stats. Just use the regular summoned monster stats and replace the model with the creature specified.

With perhaps a few different models in the later tiers? A blade spider or one of those queen spiders at later levels would be neat, and pants-shittingly terrifying.

Some might go 'so a feat that basically just does a cosmetic change?', well, not entirely.

For one thing, maybe differentiate the critters just a bit by giving slight bonuses? Spiders/Scorpions getting a poison attack, Wolves getting a +2 STR bonus, ect. Stuff like that.

As well that, it would make higher tier conjuration more viable, as you wouldn't be calling up elementals anymore. Granted, your summons would no longer get benefits from the Enhanced Elemental feats, nor would they have the DR and immunities that elementals have, but that's a fair price for safe summonings, I'd wager.

But beyond that, I think this would help with solidifying characters. I know of at least a few sewer dwellers who'd enjoy being able to call up super rats, I imagine. :)

Hallvor Hadiya

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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 10:32:37 AM »
This is already a tried and tested idea on other servers; and we'd be remiss not to look at POTM contemporaries who already incorporate this system, as it does not unbalance the game and bridges the gap between multiple classes I can only think of this as a good change, a step towards lateral progression and further character customisation.

Quote from Arelith's wiki, where this system is already implemented.
Quote
"Stream" books may be found randomly as loot. These books may either be used once per day to summon a relatively weak creature, or a character may use and consume them to permanently learn the respective stream. Once a stream has been learnt, the character may use the -stream command to select a predetermined creature out of a summoning spell.

For example, a wizard with a "Water" stream casting Summon Creature VIII would always conjure a water elemental, instead of randomly getting one between water, fire, earth or air.

There are a few streams that are limited by class and abilities, or having special conditions, like the undead streams, which can only be learnt through a ritual in a very specific locations. Streams affect all summoning spells casted by the character, including those from non-casting classes using items and scrolls.

However, this thread does crop up from time to time and it is clear at this moment the current set of developers are uninterested in developing conjuration further in this way, at this time. As I can only imagine how intensive the coding behind such a system is, so all I can say is if someone can suggest a practical method of implementation i.e the code it might go further than those previous threads.
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EO

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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2020, 10:35:41 AM »
Quote
However, this thread does crop up from time to time and it is clear at this moment the current set of developers are uninterested in developing conjuration further in this way, at this time. As I can only imagine how intensive the coding behind such a system is, so all I can say is if someone can suggest a practical method of implementation i.e the code it might go further than those previous threads.

We do not implement others' code; code in big PWs like ours often is intertwined with other existing systems. The last system I imported was flintlocks about 10 years ago and I basically had to rewrite 2/3 of it.

There are no plans for the foreseeable future to further develop arcane casters; they are already far better than other classes. If you can suggest things that will bring down the power of arcane casters to a more manageable level, then giving them boons will be reexamined. I'd rather focus on making less played classes more interesting and powerful than boost/give more tools to what is essentially already the most popular class on the server.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 10:38:14 AM by EO »

Hallvor Hadiya

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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2020, 10:49:18 AM »
We do not implement others' code; code in big PWs like ours often is intertwined with other existing systems. The last system I imported was flintlocks about 10 years ago and I basically had to rewrite 2/3 of it.

I assume that would be better than writing it from scratch, but I do not pretend to know the server's intricacies or what type of hamster wheel it runs on.

There are no plans for the foreseeable future to further develop arcane casters; they are already far better than other classes. If you can suggest things that will bring down the power of arcane casters to a more manageable power then giving them boons will be reexamined. I'd rather focus on making less played classes more interesting and powerful than boost/give more tools to what is essentially already the most popular class on the server.

The system would not only be for "arcane casters", as customisation to summons is not only wanted for wizards/sorcerers but clerics and druids, as different faiths and shamans are far more likely to summon specific beings or creatures, or even druids who call upon the aid of animals who they have a direct affinity towards. This is not necessarily a boost to those classes but more customisation, and greater regard to the Lore and player agency.
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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2020, 10:51:26 AM »
Right, but once again the time spent developing this can better be spent developing classes that aren't top tier classes (as druids, clerics and arcane casters are).

Once again, the stance is pretty clear at this point; if or when casters are brought down to a more manageable level, then we can look at side upgrades. You can agree that there are plenty of classes that need more attention than pure casters.

Hallvor Hadiya

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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2020, 10:56:02 AM »
Right, but once again the time spent developing this can better be spent developing classes that aren't top tier classes (as druids, clerics and arcane casters are).

Once again, the stance is pretty clear at this point; if or when casters are brought down to a more manageable level, then we can look at side upgrades. You can agree that there are plenty of classes that need more attention than pure casters.

I can respect that, but good luck re-balancing the other classes out of the 3.5 caster power creep. I think the thread has been answered in one way or another.
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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2020, 10:59:35 AM »
I can respect that, but good luck re-balancing the other classes out of the 3.5 caster power creep. I think the thread has been answered in one way or another.

There are ways by following 3.5 (ie: spell components for wizards/sorcerers, spellbooks that can drop for wizards meaning they lose all their spells, stricter control of clerics actively worshiping their deity, etc.), question is if and how to best implement them.

Hallvor Hadiya

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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2020, 11:23:59 AM »
There are ways by following 3.5 (ie: spell components for wizards/sorcerers, spellbooks that can drop for wizards meaning they lose all their spells, stricter control of clerics actively worshiping their deity, etc.), question is if and how to best implement them.

These "spellbooks", "spell components", and stricter control of clerical worship are even hand waved in the table top more often than not, being too much busy work. And even implementation on other NWN servers is piece meal at best, and sidelined at worse. For example "crafting spell components for spells that range upwards of 7-9" is apart of quite a few servers, but that is funnelled into a relatively painless crafting system, where as compared to POTM's which is far more intensive and some would argue excruciating. Forcing people to partake in the crafting system would make some quit the class alone, so successful?

And spellbooks that can drop, everyone would shift to Sorcerers not solving the problem but simply circumventing the solution. I'd argue there will always be better classes, more optimal classes and while I'm not dismissing the ideas out of hand, as it won't be me coding them but if the power creep was so easily solved it would already be done. For one maybe start introducing some of the epic fighter feats to those classes that need it.

The answer to the divide is not to hamper people with more restrictions, but to insensitive the other classes. The boogeymen of unbalanced gameplay has always been apart of D&D, its an adapted tabletop role-playing game with very little resources on interPC combat, it will always exist as a quirk of the game. I think what people want to see is greater agency, and choice.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 11:27:59 AM by Hallvor Hadiya »
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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2020, 11:39:52 AM »
Hence why effort is spent on other classes but buffing everyone to caster level just creates more power creep, which in turn forces us to scale up dungeons, and so on and so forth.

Hallvor Hadiya

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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2020, 11:59:56 AM »
Hence why effort is spent on other classes but buffing everyone to caster level just creates more power creep, which in turn forces us to scale up dungeons, and so on and so forth.

This has been one of the reasons I'm asking so many questions - as I think we'd like to all know the direction and mind of the development team. As the "power creep" exists cause of the lvl cap as is: it already strains against the setting itself as Ravenloft was never designed with the intention of hosting this many 16+ PCs. A/MPCs struggle to find a place as currently presented cause they are either too weak to pose a threat to migrating high lvls or too strong and simply sweep aside low lvls.

DMs must segregate events and quest lines artificially due to this to maintain the threat/balance, the only real solution to that is dropping the lvl cap otherwise your playing a game of hot potato with debuffs. Lowering it would balance casters and other classes as the power creep is only really evident at the later levels, and solves many issues across the board and allows greater control over the experience as there is less content to manage. But would wipe clean all the high lvl content, and I'm not sure the server is ready for that.

As I can only see two solutions to this, embrace the creep or kill it in its infancy. But I am curious to see the development teams opinion and current approach.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 12:14:20 PM by Hallvor Hadiya »
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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2020, 12:15:35 PM »
As I can only see two solutions to this, embrace the creep or kill it in its infancy. But I am curious to see the development teams opinion and current approach.

I think at this stage the Dev team is pretty committed to the killing creep in its infancy strategy... just look at the Time Stop nerfs for proof of that :P
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 12:21:39 PM by aprogressivist »
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Khornite

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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2020, 01:55:12 PM »
Hence why effort is spent on other classes but buffing everyone to caster level just creates more power creep, which in turn forces us to scale up dungeons, and so on and so forth.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head
-Melee classes are skill point starved, especially fighters. POTM has a lot more feats and skills than standard NWN and those 2+Int (4+ for barbarians) skill points don't go far at all on fighters and barbarians.

-Melee classes live and die by their equipment. There's loads of class unique gear for casters but not a lot for fighters and barbarians. The low magic level of the server hits melee types the most.

-There's lots of ways to get more AC, tumble, parry, two weapon fighting, the fencing feats. But not a lot of ways to get more AB. Maybe a +1 to AB for every 10 points in discipline or have fighters naturally gain some extra AB.

-Boost Adamantine gear! Non-magic classes are the ones seeing the most benefit from adamantine weapons and armor. Especially with the higher enchanting costs, it's use for casters is low to nil and even clerics are better off using chitin. The lose of discipline skill bonuses on the armor definitely hurts fighter types who decide to go adamantine. Maybe adamantine weapons can do a little more damage than steel weapons.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2020, 02:41:24 PM »
Spoiler: show
Hence why effort is spent on other classes but buffing everyone to caster level just creates more power creep, which in turn forces us to scale up dungeons, and so on and so forth.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head
-Melee classes are skill point starved, especially fighters. POTM has a lot more feats and skills than standard NWN and those 2+Int (4+ for barbarians) skill points don't go far at all on fighters and barbarians.

-Melee classes live and die by their equipment. There's loads of class unique gear for casters but not a lot for fighters and barbarians. The low magic level of the server hits melee types the most.

-There's lots of ways to get more AC, tumble, parry, two weapon fighting, the fencing feats. But not a lot of ways to get more AB. Maybe a +1 to AB for every 10 points in discipline or have fighters naturally gain some extra AB.


-Boost Adamantine gear! Non-magic classes are the ones seeing the most benefit from adamantine weapons and armor. Especially with the higher enchanting costs, it's use for casters is low to nil and even clerics are better off using chitin. The lose of discipline skill bonuses on the armor definitely hurts fighter types who decide to go adamantine. Maybe adamantine weapons can do a little more damage than steel weapons.

Should probably start separate threads for these ideas, but!

My main has adamantine gear, and I don't think it needs boosting. In terms of balance, a boost would make all the other gear even more worthless than it already is. And also in terms of balance, it would increase the gap between high levels and low.

As Hallvor wrote:

Quote
A/MPCs struggle to find a place as currently presented cause they are either too weak to pose a threat to migrating high lvls or too strong and simply sweep aside low lvls.

DMs must segregate events and quest lines artificially due to this to maintain the threat/balance

Making top-level gear and top-level PCs yet stronger will aggravate that.

Just as EO says that the Devs aren't interested in buffing the most powerful classes, buffing the most powerful levels should be a very low priority IMO as well.

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Re: Summoning Streams
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2020, 03:46:59 PM »
Spoiler: show
Hence why effort is spent on other classes but buffing everyone to caster level just creates more power creep, which in turn forces us to scale up dungeons, and so on and so forth.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head
-Melee classes are skill point starved, especially fighters. POTM has a lot more feats and skills than standard NWN and those 2+Int (4+ for barbarians) skill points don't go far at all on fighters and barbarians.

-Melee classes live and die by their equipment. There's loads of class unique gear for casters but not a lot for fighters and barbarians. The low magic level of the server hits melee types the most.

-There's lots of ways to get more AC, tumble, parry, two weapon fighting, the fencing feats. But not a lot of ways to get more AB. Maybe a +1 to AB for every 10 points in discipline or have fighters naturally gain some extra AB.


-Boost Adamantine gear! Non-magic classes are the ones seeing the most benefit from adamantine weapons and armor. Especially with the higher enchanting costs, it's use for casters is low to nil and even clerics are better off using chitin. The lose of discipline skill bonuses on the armor definitely hurts fighter types who decide to go adamantine. Maybe adamantine weapons can do a little more damage than steel weapons.

Should probably start separate threads for these ideas, but!

My main has adamantine gear, and I don't think it needs boosting. In terms of balance, a boost would make all the other gear even more worthless than it already is. And also in terms of balance, it would increase the gap between high levels and low.

As Hallvor wrote:

Quote
A/MPCs struggle to find a place as currently presented cause they are either too weak to pose a threat to migrating high lvls or too strong and simply sweep aside low lvls.

DMs must segregate events and quest lines artificially due to this to maintain the threat/balance

Making top-level gear and top-level PCs yet stronger will aggravate that.

Just as EO says that the Devs aren't interested in buffing the most powerful classes, buffing the most powerful levels should be a very low priority IMO as well.

+1 I don’t see the need to boost Adamantine gear or any high lvl PCs