Author Topic: Some constructive suggestions  (Read 1699 times)

TheVandals

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Some constructive suggestions
« on: February 23, 2020, 01:16:50 PM »
  I've been bitching in the discord channel about a lot of the features in the game that bug me, and I thought I'd take the time to put together something more constructive, more exhaustive, and ultimately, more helpful.

  I'd like to first talk about some of the things I think we could learn from 5e.

  1. 5e fixes the problem of low-duration spells.

     In my view Ravenloft's non-stop rest-athon is bad for roleplay and kills the pace of the game. People just roll out matresses in the middle of piles of rotting corpses and
     instantly have 8 hour naps, because they have no other choice, because spells last 6-10 minutes at lower level. On top of this, people just zerg through dungeons because
     they're trying to preserve their buffs. I'd suggest that for all the spells that were set to be 1 hour + X/level, the 1 hour be made 30 RL minutes or 1 RL hour. In other words,
     we increase the base duration from 6 minutes to 30 minutes.

  2. 5e fixes the problem of save-or-die effects
     
     There's not much to say here other than that save-or-die effects aren't very sporting or fun. Generally, things that instantaneously determine the outcome of a fight without
     affording the victim any opportunity to even attempt to respond or apply their ingenuity are not very enjoyable. If you look at Finger of Death or even Hold Person in 5th
     edition, they've been modified to be a lot less save-or-die'ish.

     Save-or-die isn't just about instantaneous death effects, either. There's a spider cave in Ravenloft where if you get bit enough times you can't move, become exhausted, and
     basically become a sitting duck. This is basically a save-or-die effect, and it's also a problem remedied in 5e:

  3. Fewer annoying stat drains
     
     Poisons gives hp damage and potentially the poisoned condition. In the situation above, if a person recieved a bunch of spider bites it wouldn't be save-or-die, they'd just
     take a lot of hp damage and if they didn't treat the poison suffer from the poisoned condition.
     
  4. 5e restores weapon balance

     5e got rid of critical threat ranges and x3 multipliers. x3 multipliers are to me very similar to save-or-die effects. They often deny the user any time to adapt or apply their
     ingenuity to recover, and they're in my opinion a massive balance issue. I'd probably recommend either giving all weapons 19-20 threat ranges and making them x2, and/or
     giving 2-handed weapons a bonus to confirm critical hits and/or "advantage" on critical hit damage and making them threaten
     only on 20.

5.  5e got rid of the bane of my existence: damage reduction

     As part of their bid to sanitize weapons, 5e got rid of damage reduction and all the myriad of annoying ways to overcome it. "Golf-bag" syndrome is far less an issue, and you
     you no longer have to carry around 20 different weapons in your golf-bag to deal with the variety of different damage reduction types a creature might have.
     
     Furthermore, fewer creatures have damage immunities, and more have damage vulnerabilities:

     skeletons for example aren't resistant to everything but bludgeoning. They're /vulnerable/ to bludgeoning. This is a far less frustrating system for the users: those who show up
     with blunt weapons get rewarded with a bonus to their damage, and those who prefer to opt out of the game of carrying 20 different weapons don't have to sit there and do 1-
     2 damage per hit.

6.  5e got rid of weapon finesse

     Weapon finesse is no longer a thing, and on top of that, we get dex to damage using light weapons. While I'm actually ambivilant re: the dex-to-damage thing (though not
     altogether opposed) it has always baffled me how in 3.5e being strong improved your aim with a melee weapon without a feat, but you needed a feat to use your dexterity to
     aim with your melee weapon. Dex builds are far more feasible in 5e.

7.  5e made rogues great again

     5e gave rogues d8 hit dice and allowed them to use their sneak attacks on basically everything. Combine this with 5e's dex-to-damage, and you have a class that no longer has to be sidelined 99% of the time.


These are the lessons I think we could learn from 5e. I have more suggestions but I'll save those for another day, as this has already become too long.


     


« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 01:18:55 PM by TheVandals »

MAB77

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2020, 01:36:41 PM »
Remember that the game engine is built around 3rd edition D&D. There is still much in it that we cannot adjust. Our mandate remains to emulate 3rd/3.5 edition D&D as best as possible and we balanced the module accordingly.

5e is a different game mechanic entirely with its own system of checks and balances. It is not compatible with the d20 system.
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Blissey

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2020, 01:51:43 PM »
Ravenloft, and this server specifically, is quite hard compared to other servers. I've learned that I've enjoyed the server far more by learning how to tackle those problems rather than attempt to change them, that's the fun of any game after all. If they did remove these features or tweak them, it would just be far too easy and that's no fun. There's a strict balance between mechanics and roleplay, and there are certain times where one out-weighs the other - it's still a game, however, and we can decide what way we want to play it, hence different playstyles. Some people play for the mechanics, while others play purely for roleplay. Each medium has its challenges. Once you trudge through those lower levels and finally hit that level where you suddenly become a walking killing/warding/healing machine or when you find that incredibly dynamic, immersive and fulfilling narrative, you'll find that all that hard work and dedication is very rapidly paid off and you'll find yourself with more game knowledge and how to better prepare your next characters.

FinalHeaven

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2020, 02:17:42 PM »
Rogues are absolutely not sidelined anywhere close to 99% of the time om PotM.

Beyond that, 5e is a nice system but may as well be an entirely different game in terms of how PotM is intentionally built and balanced.  While some of these tweaks might seem small on their own, they'd be large effects on the module as a whole.



haifisch021

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2020, 04:48:59 PM »
I see where you're coming from, but I actually like most of the things you listed as problems or areas of improvement :P I feel like changing all of it would hurt the game experience.
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Nemesis 24

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2020, 06:28:11 PM »
Spoken about this before, but there are a few reasons 5e changes do not translate well at all to 3.5 ruleset.  Even if they 'were' possible, it would be a problem.

1.  The shorter duration is deliberate, to enforce buffing being a careful affair of consideration rather than fire and forget.  In particular in DM events, it would make buffing a simple and singular affair.  However, the crucial thing you are overlooking from 5e that is present in 3.5, is that in 5e only a SINGLE concentration spell can be maintained.  No more.  So, while it is frustrating to have a shorter duration, if you wanted 5e mechanics you would have to, say, choose -between- magic weapon and bulls strength.  Not both.

2.  I admit I love the less save or die effects in 5e.  However 5e is limited in its counters, has a lower number DC over all, and saves are pretty good.  3.5 is a totally different animal full of many counter abilities to what you describe, including a blanket 'no death effect' lvl 4 spell.

3.  I do tend to look at point 2 for this.  But its also crucial to the server make up.  Those attacks exist to encourage party play to have a full suite of counters.  Maybe thats annoying, and frustrating, but its there for players to more or less be forced to party up.  One of the reasons, anyway.

4.  The crit multiplier thing is somewhat crucial to the game system because 5e works off a -very- limited number pool.  AB, AC, are all lower and stats cannot pass 20, except in exceptional circumstances.  This is offset in 3.5 due to the massively higher AC and AB numbers, not to mention a larger hit point pool.  Much more in the way of feats as well, to offset it.  Removing it also would make characters who are only good against living enemies extremely redundant.  Its is, for example, the only thing a weapon master is good at.

5.  Damage reduction becomes vital not to enemies but to -players- at later stages.  Without ethereal visage, without stoneskin, and more besides you'd be far more upset than with enemies you haven't armed yourself correctly against.  What you are talking about is entry level enemies.    Its not a good suggestion to remove everything based on entry level mechanics.

6.  Weapon finesse exists because unlike 5e, 3.5 is unlimited stats.  You can have 30+ dexterity in 3.5, if you want, rather than the top score of 20 in 5e.  Currently dexterity is tied to AC, and AB.  Strength is tied to AB, and damage.  However, if Dexterity was crucial to AC, AB, and damage, it would make next to no sense -not- to 'only' play a dexterity class build, for practically everyone.  There would be no sane reason not to at that point, which is why it just does not work.  Its immensely overpowered to put all of combat into one single stat.  It works wonderfully in 5e I admit, but that is because of the stat total limitation amongst other things, not to mention the lower AC and AB totals overall.  This change would need an outright massive overhaul of the entire game from base code up to be viable at all, and that isn't happening.

7.  Rogues are in fact the single most successful class on the server.  Particularly in the only field that actually matters, consequence wise - high stakes PvP.  They're also masters of stealth, outright required for most dungeons due to their trap and lock abilities, and generally are the richest due to their incredible ninja looting abilities (something which the server is designed around encouraging btw, with its highly advanced looting mechanics that cause minimum impact for other players).  The fact they can't one shot a skeleton isn't going to change the fact they're vital elsewhere.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 06:30:39 PM by Nemesis 24 »

tylernwn

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2020, 01:51:03 PM »
This module is based on 3rd edition, not 5th edition.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 01:52:57 PM by tylernwn1991 »

tylernwn

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2020, 02:42:09 PM »
... it has always baffled me how in 3.5e being strong improved your aim with a melee weapon without a feat, but you needed a feat to use your dexterity to
     aim with your melee weapon...

Just a bit of lore here. The reason that strength increases your chance to hit here is very easy to explain; In DnD the concept of a hit is not that you touched the enemy (thats something different, its a touch attach), its that you touched the enemy and hit them in such a way that you are able to do damage.

In the case of strength, it is very easy to understand why more strength equals more "hits". If you are able to swing a sword and touch the enemy with it, then if you add a lot more power behind that swing your chance of doing damage is much higher. Hence your chance of scoring the dnd definition of a hit is much higher.

On the other hand if you are very dexterous, that doesnt increase your chance of scoring a hit, since a hit is not a successful touch attack. So you need special training in order to leverage your increased agility to get between armor sockets and so on, in order to do damage.

That is why this rule is the way it is.


« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 02:45:11 PM by tylernwn1991 »

TheVandals

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2020, 02:46:39 PM »
Okay, since we're based on 3.5 we should get rid of the ability to do a full 8 hour rest every few hours, and we should remove the base spell duration increase we already gave many spells. We should go back to making 1 an automatic failure on saving throws. We should make all the medium armor suck like it does in regular 3.5. We should make it so keen and improved crit don't stack (actually I believe in this one).

I'm speaking facetiously here. The point I'm making is that we're clearly willing to deviate from 3.5, so I'm a little dubious about using our staunch loyalty to 3.5 as a counter-argument to the points I raised. Increasing the spell durations of a few spells doesn't strike me as a total betrayal of 3.5, and it clearly doesn't for the development team who have already implemented a more moderate version of what I proposed, presumably because they too noticed how annoying super-short spell durations are at low level.

I'm far more interested in application than I am in theory. In theory, yes, the short durations turn us all into cunning wizards who carefully calculate every spell. In reality the current low spell durations don't seem to me to prompt the careful management of spells at all. When your buffs run out you just sit down in the middle of a pile of corpses mid-dungeon and re-buff. That doesn't seem to me to be a very sophisticated or calculated thing.

Glass Cannon

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2020, 02:59:25 PM »
There's a difference between hacking the system and burning it down to start from scratch...
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tylernwn

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2020, 03:03:45 PM »
Okay, since we're based on 3.5 we should get rid of the ability to do a full 8 hour rest every few hours, and we should remove the base spell duration increase we already gave many spells. We should go back to making 1 an automatic failure on saving throws. We should make all the medium armor suck like it does in regular 3.5. We should make it so keen and improved crit don't stack (actually I believe in this one).

I'm speaking facetiously here. The point I'm making is that we're clearly willing to deviate from 3.5, so I'm a little dubious about using our staunch loyalty to 3.5 as a counter-argument to the points I raised. Increasing the spell durations of a few spells doesn't strike me as a total betrayal of 3.5, and it clearly doesn't for the development team who have already implemented a more moderate version of what I proposed, presumably because they too noticed how annoying super-short spell durations are at low level.

I'm far more interested in application than I am in theory. In theory, yes, the short durations turn us all into cunning wizards who carefully calculate every spell. In reality the current low spell durations don't seem to me to prompt the careful management of spells at all. When your buffs run out you just sit down in the middle of a pile of corpses mid-dungeon and re-buff. That doesn't seem to me to be a very sophisticated or calculated thing.

No offense but I think you need to play more before you make a dedicated suggestions thread complaining about everything you can think of. You are stuck on complaining about things that you will either out-level quickly, or that can't change. Play a bit more and see how things are. When you have a clear idea of what could be better and would be a solid indisputable improvement, make your suggestions and I am sure that they will get traction.

However right now you are complaining about things that are not going to change. They are either core parts of 3.5, or core parts of how NWN (the game from 2002) was designed.  Even though you were being "facetious", I think everything you used in your examples already appear in game how they were implemented in 3.5. The exception is rests, which are instead implemented the way that they were designed in the base game NWN.

Have you played the base game yet? Its great, and might help you understand why things are the way they are. Remember that the dev's didn't create this game; they are just tweaking it using the limited toolkit that BioWare provided. So there are limits to what they can do too.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 03:41:24 PM by tylernwn1991 »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2020, 03:12:20 PM »
Given that NWN (the game) is not designed for 5, this is likely not the right platform to try to implement a 5-based ruleset.

Regarding the specific of spell duration, although your complaint is about low levels, the difference mostly manifests itself at high levels.

POTM Cat's Grace
3rd level caster = 9 Turns (1.5 IG hours)
20th level caster = 26 Turns (4 1/3 IG hours)

Standard NWN
3rd level caster = 18 Turns (3 IG hours)
20th level caster = 120 Turns (20 IG hours)

The durations were nerfed not to hurt low levels, but to reduce the ability of high levels to set it and forget it.


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TheVandals

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2020, 03:47:47 PM »
Okay, since we're based on 3.5 we should get rid of the ability to do a full 8 hour rest every few hours, and we should remove the base spell duration increase we already gave many spells. We should go back to making 1 an automatic failure on saving throws. We should make all the medium armor suck like it does in regular 3.5. We should make it so keen and improved crit don't stack (actually I believe in this one).

I'm speaking facetiously here. The point I'm making is that we're clearly willing to deviate from 3.5, so I'm a little dubious about using our staunch loyalty to 3.5 as a counter-argument to the points I raised. Increasing the spell durations of a few spells doesn't strike me as a total betrayal of 3.5, and it clearly doesn't for the development team who have already implemented a more moderate version of what I proposed, presumably because they too noticed how annoying super-short spell durations are at low level.

I'm far more interested in application than I am in theory. In theory, yes, the short durations turn us all into cunning wizards who carefully calculate every spell. In reality the current low spell durations don't seem to me to prompt the careful management of spells at all. When your buffs run out you just sit down in the middle of a pile of corpses mid-dungeon and re-buff. That doesn't seem to me to be a very sophisticated or calculated thing.

No offense, but I think you need to play more before you make a dedicated suggestions thread complaining about everything you can think of. You are very much stuck on complaining about things that only apply to the beginning of your character. Play a bit more, see how things are. When you have a clear idea of what could be better and would be a solid and indisputable improvement, make your suggestions and I am sure that they will get traction.

However right now you are complaining about things that are not going to change. They are either core parts of 3.5, or core parts of how NWN (the game from 2002) was designed.  Even though you were being "facetious", I think everything you used in your examples already appear in game how they were implemented in 3.5. The exception is rests, which are instead implemented the way that they were designed in the base game NWN.

Have you played the base game yet? Its great, and might help you understand why things are the way they are. Remember that the dev's didn't create this game; they are just tweaking it using the limited toolkit that BioWare has provided. So there are limits to what they can do too.


I listed a bunch of ways in which Ravenloft already deviates from the 3.5 and NWN rule set, in the text you quoted. Ravenloft isn't 3.5, doesn't staunchly follow the 3.5 rules, and does whatever it wants whenever it wants (as it should), and the "oh we're 3.5" argument is really just "me no like change."

I first started playing Ravenloft over 10 years ago. I quit playing back then for all the same reasons I'm complaining about now, only now, the people who actually professionally develop D&D have solved all these problems like the smart people that they are and packaged their ideas into a successful commercial product. If we want to ignore all their great ideas, stick our fingers in our ears, and say "we 3.5, we 3.5" even though we've got a plethora of content that is totally inconsistent with 3.5, then be my guest. You can lead a horse to water.

TheVandals

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2020, 04:03:41 PM »
Here's a list of things we should get rid of since we're 3.5 and anything that isn't 3.5 is mental:


- 1 should be an automatic fail on saving throws
- parry should not give flat AC
- influence should be removed
- antagonize should be removed
- the lore DCs should all be lowered
- the 40 custom feats should be removed
- the custom weapons, exotic and otherwise, should all be removed
- the custom light and medium armors (I'm assuming heavy armor too) should be removed
- Every single custom spell change should be removed
  - talking about GMW giving +5 again, barkskin should have a shorter duration and the AC should progress slower, ect ect. Really this is too long to list. Basically a hundred custom
    changes to spells needs to be reverted.
- All newly added spells removed
- Ranger's animal companion should be 1/2 the ranger's level
- Ranger's caster level should be 1/2 his level

Honestly, the list of ways that we're not 3.5 will make your eyes roll in the back of your head. I bet this list constitutes like 20% of the total changes that aren't 3.5. The whole 'Anything that isn't strictly 3.5 is evil' hysteria that I'm seeing here is totally baffling.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2020, 04:14:29 PM »
I don't think anyone is arguing "hysterically" or that anything not strictly 3.5 is evil. Or we would agree with you that those discrepancies need to be purged.

Nevertheless, the degree to which a game built (programmed) on one platform can deviate from it--especially without enormous effort from Devs--is limited.

The changes (deviations) you list have accreted over many years. They are tweaks with the aim of improving balance or other aspects of game play.

Likewise, one or more of your suggestions might be worthwhile and find widespread support. But the laundry-list manner in which you're presenting them isn't conducive to their likely acceptance. Most people play here presumably because the *do* like things the way they are (for the most part). So it might be more productive to take on one aspect of the game you'd like to see changed at a time.

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ardenchasemoradin

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2020, 04:19:25 PM »
I have no authority to say this except from the goodness of my heart and for the love of this community. Let us remember the number one rule.

Be Excellent to Each Other.

This is just a game. It should be fun.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2020, 04:29:24 PM »
Theres a difference between suggestions and demanding an entire new ruleset become the basis of the game.  The 5e balance changes (which btw I love) would require an enormous change to the server.  So much so as to build a whole new game. One buff spell at a time?  Stats no higher than 20?  Stats only to saves, no bonuses?  And AB at a max of 6 plus stat and enhancement?

It works in the system its in.  It doesnt in this one.

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Kaninchen

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2020, 04:56:02 PM »
I have not played the game long enough, and I don't know enough about the mechanics of NWN, or DnD in general to comment on a lot of your suggested changes. I have however played a rogue almost exclusively (NCE caused me to create a loveable kender), and I'm currently level 14 with it.  Very rarely have I felt like I had to be sidelined. There has only been one dungeon where I was "sidelined," and that is the Salt Mines, however this is due to my character being level 11 at the time, and not because of the class. The reason people took a level 11 there? I could hit the traps and locks.

So even if I can't always contribute damage, or big numbers, I contribute something. Folk give me heal tonics to stuff down their throats if things get scary. I can pull out a bow and contribute. Had I thought of it sooner in the character's existence, I could have done stuff with set trap. Rogue gives me access to UMD, so I can do cool things with that. Rogues get access to spot, and listen. Some classes get access to neither (which is a silly thing to me). 

The class has a lot going for it, and I don't think it needs to be dabbled with too much. Your example of a larger hit dice would not have as big an effect as you think, in my opinion, because AC, AB, and concealment are the bigger deciding factors, as I've experienced, in pve combat.

My thoughts on it, anyways. And also, be excellent to each other :-D

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2020, 05:21:35 PM »

Quote
  1. 5e fixes the problem of low-duration spells.

     In my view Ravenloft's non-stop rest-athon is bad for roleplay and kills the pace of the game. People just roll out matresses in the middle of piles of rotting corpses and
     instantly have 8 hour naps, because they have no other choice, because spells last 6-10 minutes at lower level. On top of this, people just zerg through dungeons because
     they're trying to preserve their buffs. I'd suggest that for all the spells that were set to be 1 hour + X/level, the 1 hour be made 30 RL minutes or 1 RL hour. In other words,
     we increase the base duration from 6 minutes to 30 minutes.

 

While this may be true,  5e also significantly limits the number of spells you can have at one time. Want a bull's strength, then you can't have cats grace active at the same time. Need to haste, there goes your invisibility buff. 5e really is a different game than 3.5. It's not better or worse, just different. Like comparing apples to oranges

Glass Cannon

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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2020, 05:42:38 PM »
The whole 'Anything that isn't strictly 3.5 is evil' hysteria that I'm seeing here is totally baffling.

This thread stopped being constructive a long time ago, but certainly misconstruing people pointing out technical difficulties as hysterical opposition is one way to ensure a moderator will come in and lock it soon.

Nonetheless, rather than stoop to that level, I'd like to make a constructive suggestion of my own.

Before PotM can be adapted to 5E, we need a system that can be adapted to running 5E on a NWN-like server.  Beamdog may eventually open up EE enough that this is feasible on NWN, but more likely you'd have to adapt something else; I don't know, maybe it's feasible with Shards Online?  I stopped paying attention to that project years ago, but who knows?

Once you've done that, you can then start building the Ravenloft custom content on top of it.  I imagine you'll have to adapt a lot from 3E anyway, my understanding is that there is way more 3E Ravenloft material than what's available for 5E.

This will require a lot of work, so I recommend you find people with the necessary skills and motivation to help you build this server.  Pro-tip: don't call them hysterical when they raise objections, it may discourage them.
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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2020, 05:49:45 PM »
Your suggestions are as bad as your attitude.
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Re: Some constructive suggestions
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2020, 06:16:38 PM »
I've locked this topic since the tone on both sides is far from excellent.

To respond to the original topic, quite a few of these suggestions can't be implemented at all or without reworking core functions due to NwN's limitations. Generally speaking though, before making suggestions it is best to spend more time on the server, playing and learning how the different current mechanics interact with each other, then trying to figure out what can be changed and what cannot and suggest these individually rather than a laundry list; it's more likely to get considered then.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 06:21:30 PM by EO »