Author Topic: Dropped Enchanted Weapons  (Read 3254 times)

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Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« on: January 18, 2020, 06:56:40 PM »
It is my view that enchanted weapons represent a major investment to their owner and being soul bound I think it would make sense IC for there to be mechanics in play that would help the weapons find their way back to their owner. Some suggestions include:

1) Persistence through resets.
2) Can not be picked up at all by anyone else but their owner or alternatively a system where by the owner can "find" or track their weapon and another PC cannot log off with it.

MAB77

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2020, 01:28:33 PM »
This was decided against long ago. In the interest of storytelling we purposefully made it possible for a player to lose its weapon or to hand it over to someone else as a legacy. Captured weapons can be ransomed or even rebounded to a new owner. Good stories occurred around such events. The investment into making a magical weapon does not override the need of a player to be careful with one's own equipment.
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Hypatia

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2020, 02:07:41 PM »
I thought enchanted items could only be used by the person who enchanted them?  How do you hand them over to someone else?

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2020, 03:23:45 PM »
They can be picked up by others, and re-enchanted to be bound to a new owner.

I don't have a horse in this race besides the persistence through resets thing. Having to get a DM to return your enchanted weapon if the server crashes at a bad time sounds pretty unfortunate and I can think of a few situations where it would happen even if they're unlikely to occur every day.
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Disorder

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2020, 03:24:33 PM »
There was a change. Now someone else can re-enchant, spending experience points, your item and use it.
In theory, this is great.
In reality, rules do not forbid you to take especially precious enchanted adamantine weapons and use them as sort of a 'hostage'.
I know, it sounds silly, but this can happen.


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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2020, 03:27:36 PM »
There was a change. Now someone else can re-enchant, spending experience points, your item and use it.
In theory, this is great.
In reality, rules do not forbid you to take especially precious enchanted adamantine weapons and use them as sort of a 'hostage'.
I know, it sounds silly, but this can happen.

That's not silly and it predates the change to enchanting. It's the main reason why shields and weapons drop in the first place. If you die alone without friends, you're more likely to get robbed, hence why it's always safer to travel with a trusted party.

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2020, 03:37:08 PM »
I don't see anything unreasonable at all about a villain holding someone's precious items hostage.

The way it is now is certainly far better than it used to be, however.  Now if a villain wants to actually use the item they have to sacrifice their own XP to do so.  Before, you could use someone else's enchanted items without any cost.



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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2020, 06:53:36 PM »
This was decided against long ago. In the interest of storytelling we purposefully made it possible for a player to lose its weapon or to hand it over to someone else as a legacy. Captured weapons can be ransomed or even rebounded to a new owner. Good stories occurred around such events. The investment into making a magical weapon does not override the need of a player to be careful with one's own equipment.

I don't doubt there's opportunity here for responsible players but surely there's a larger opportunity in an enchanted dropped weapon for griefing and there's certainly no hard rules or mechanics to discourage such behaviour. A low level rogue could easily stumble across such in a high level area, pick up a weapon, log off and never be seen again. It's not even possible for a player to "spot" their old weapon if someone else is using it having enchanted over the top.

To player consequence, weapons are an inconsistent penalty, a greatsword represents both a greater investment in ingots and xp then a shortsword in turn which is greater than a mage staff... which in turn is greater than a monk's fist... unless they become droppable  :D. I love that this server strongly encourages parties but personally the most fun I have is when there is a manageable risk most of which get negated once you hit five ideal players at which point it becomes click and mush which while death penalties remain significantly high players will continue to take excessive measures to ensure it doesn't happen.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 07:11:11 PM by Relapse »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2020, 08:38:28 PM »
A dropped weapon is always an inconsistent penalty. A low level may have spent her "life savings" acquiring some weapon that is just as consequential to her to lose as a high-level losing something enchanted.

Quote
I love that this server strongly encourages parties but personally the most fun I have is when there is a manageable risk most of which get negated once you hit five ideal players at which point it becomes click and mush

All the more reason that those above a certain level (such as the level required to enchant) need to have "manageable risk." What I'm saying is that this argument seems to turn back on itself: you enjoy the server when it's not push a button and win...but don't want the genuine risk of losing enchanted weapons (a risk which by its nature falls exclusively on levels of 14+).

My main has an enchanted weapon, and it would indeed upset me to lose it. But it's a Gothic Horror server, with one of the prevalent themes being setback and loss. Retrieving or replacing an enchanted weapon might be one of the few meaningful challenges remaining to certain levels.

Needless to say, the weapon can be unequipped to avoid losing it.

(I do think dropping items because of a full inventory is entirely different and would love to see that weirdness fixed.)

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Khornite

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2020, 09:48:57 PM »
I'm more curious if it would be possible to make it so disarming people just drops the weapon into their inventory instead. With as rare as disarm is among NPC enemies, it's not too bad but it's fairly common in PVP.
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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2020, 01:14:57 AM »
A dropped weapon ...

A non enchanted weapon hasn't got an experience association and we all know that as you level the effort to obtain both experience and higher end material increases exponentially but you are right I don't necessarily think it should be enchanted specifically. To the next point risk is hardly an absolute proposition, I like a challenge :), i just see it as a potential avenue for griefing. I don't really see losing a weapon as any aspect of gothic horror, perhaps a hardcore server?

make it so disarming people just drops the weapon into their inventory instead...

Most people will just have the weapon on the hotbar, it wont mean much unless there is a timeout to prevent re-equiping it. Probably best to raise in a separate topic i'm sure other people will have their thoughts.


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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2020, 01:28:14 AM »
In case your weapon is lost due to rp outcome and it's irrecoverable you can always take a badass decision and enchant a new one ! Show everyone you're not easy to discourage !
I enchanted things from lvl 19 back to lvl 15 close to 16 with Th'rar... it takes time yes but at the long end you'll end up proud of yourself !
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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2020, 01:40:02 AM »
In case your weapon is lost due to rp outcome and it's irrecoverable you can always take a badass decision and enchant a new one ! Show everyone you're not easy to discourage !
I enchanted things from lvl 19 back to lvl 15 close to 16 with Th'rar... it takes time yes but at the long end you'll end up proud of yourself !

+ Badass !

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2020, 01:44:24 AM »
I dunno, I think stealing a powerful heirloom sounds like a pretty common theme in media, and for Gothic stuff and for horror stuff. As is losing and recovering it. Even the whole "soul split from the body, trying to find one's way back to life" thing is extremely appropriate.

There is a cooldown to re-equipping a weapon. Being unarmed for even a single round of combat can be a big deal. But, I see your point.

I'm also pretty sure unequipping your weapon while in combat will not save it from being dropped.
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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2020, 02:41:27 AM »
Ask for a custom makers stamp when you get your weapon made, anyone that sees it drop later from a thief or opportunist and clicks examine will think 'Wtf thats not yours man'.

Got to put your name on it for that security measure, make it too risky for someone to use it.

[A small plaque reads "property of Karaz Steel"] fits within the 60 character limit.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 02:44:01 AM by zDark Shadowz »

PlatointheCave

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2020, 03:01:24 AM »


If conflict escalates to CvC I think weapon loss should be on the table.

I've had instances where taking a weapon was an IC punitive measure I have executed and been on the receiving end of. Such weapons have gone on to be moved through underworld RP or used to send a message.

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2020, 03:04:06 AM »
I am just not certain if there's a reliable way to take enchanted weapon back from someone who stole/took it for whatever reason.
One thing is when weapon drops from character's hands. Another thing is when it's stored and put into inventory.
For example: your character that lost weapon eventually dealt with thief. Thief is captured, but for some reason refuses to hand it over. You'd still need a DM to be present during such encounter to take weapon from thief's inventory.  Another case is when thief will be corpsed. Someone can find thief's body, revive them and you'll have to repeat capturing procedure.

Common sense tells me that cases I briefly mentioned will be a rule breaking, however I don't see any line about how encounters with stolen enchanted weapons should be handled.

The way I see situation, if there's absolute consent between all players involved current system will work fine. The moment someone would want to be overly mean towards another DM involvement can't be avoided.

Some time ago I've heard that according to rules you can't demand from another player to drop any item from their inventory for you. Is that correct?


Khornite

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2020, 03:31:29 AM »

make it so disarming people just drops the weapon into their inventory instead...

Most people will just have the weapon on the hotbar, it wont mean much unless there is a timeout to prevent re-equiping it. Probably best to raise in a separate topic i'm sure other people will have their thoughts.

The ways that I have seen it implemented, the hotbars are undone once the disarm goes off. So you still have to search your inventory. Which sometimes can take longer.
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PlatointheCave

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2020, 04:06:54 AM »
If the thief has it on them, it could be recovered with DM supervision.

If they do not, you may never see your weapon again. Especially if they passed the weapon on.

Tracking down a lost weapon could be fun for creating story but there is not - nor do I think there should be - any requirement that you should recover it.

Assuming the CvC rules were followed in the first case, it's another risk and consequence to conflict.

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2020, 05:37:34 AM »
Assuming the CvC rules were followed, the use of the word "thief" is a misnomer.  If they took your enchanted weapon after felling you in a legitimate fight, it's now their enchanted weapon. :P

Returning enchanted weapons to their original owners is more an OOC courtesy than any kind of principle.
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immasturgeon

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2020, 08:12:59 AM »
Could this be used as griefing? Sure, but it doesn't seem to be terribly prevalent at the moment.

Also, having an undesired outcome in a conflict doesn't count as being griefed. Not having an A to B path spelled out to get a weapon back in the way you think is fair does not count as griefing. It is a consequence to conflict. There was recently a long corpse hiding conversation conversation and this seems to me to be in the same territory.

These suggestions seem to be to be too limiting to RP potential. They limit play to solve a problem that doesn't seem to actually be a problem.

APorg

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2020, 09:15:18 AM »
I am just not certain if there's a reliable way to take enchanted weapon back from someone who stole/took it for whatever reason.
One thing is when weapon drops from character's hands. Another thing is when it's stored and put into inventory.
For example: your character that lost weapon eventually dealt with thief. Thief is captured, but for some reason refuses to hand it over. You'd still need a DM to be present during such encounter to take weapon from thief's inventory.  Another case is when thief will be corpsed. Someone can find thief's body, revive them and you'll have to repeat capturing procedure.

Common sense tells me that cases I briefly mentioned will be a rule breaking, however I don't see any line about how encounters with stolen enchanted weapons should be handled.

The way I see situation, if there's absolute consent between all players involved current system will work fine. The moment someone would want to be overly mean towards another DM involvement can't be avoided.

To be clear, if a thief takes something of yours through breaking the rules (e.g. pickpocket without hostiling first), that's cheating, and you should take screenshots to prove what happened and what you lost.  In that case, even if the thief can't be found because they logged off permanently or whatever, a DM should be able to restore your weapon for you.

If a thief takes something of yours through legitimate means (e.g. picks it up after you're killed, pickpockets you while they've hostiled you), then while it's perfectly okay to portray this IC as theft, from an OOC rules perspective, it's technically their gear now, and a DM is under no obligation to intervene.

Enchanted gear is no different, as per OOC rules.  Because enchanted gear is both highly valuable and useful to its original owner, and useless except as a trophy to everyone else, there's been a bit of an OOC culture of respecting it more; but in fact if they take your enchanted gear through rules-wise legitimate means, it's now theirs.

Quote
Some time ago I've heard that according to rules you can't demand from another player to drop any item from their inventory for you. Is that correct?

That's correct.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 09:17:05 AM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2020, 12:05:05 PM »
Quote
If a thief takes something of yours through legitimate means (e.g. picks it up after you're killed, pickpockets you while they've hostiled you), then while it's perfectly okay to portray this IC as theft, from an OOC rules perspective, it's technically their gear now, and a DM is under no obligation to intervene.

This doesn't sound right to me. If anything, it sounds as if the person doing the taking is opting into PvP through their actions and is making themselves a target. And it goes back to what the previous poster said about "The moment someone would want to be overly mean towards another DM involvement can't be avoided.". Beating the person like a pinata isn't going to get you your sword back without a DM intervening.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 12:13:39 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2020, 12:12:24 PM »
Quote
If a thief takes something of yours through legitimate means (e.g. picks it up after you're killed, pickpockets you while they've hostiled you), then while it's perfectly okay to portray this IC as theft, from an OOC rules perspective, it's technically their gear now, and a DM is under no obligation to intervene.

This doesn't sound right to me. If anything, it sounds as if the person doing the taking is opting into PvP through their actions and is making themselves a target.

Both of these statements can be (and IMO are) true.

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Re: Dropped Enchanted Weapons
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2020, 12:14:39 PM »
Quote
If a thief takes something of yours through legitimate means (e.g. picks it up after you're killed, pickpockets you while they've hostiled you), then while it's perfectly okay to portray this IC as theft, from an OOC rules perspective, it's technically their gear now, and a DM is under no obligation to intervene.

This doesn't sound right to me. If anything, it sounds as if the person doing the taking is opting into PvP through their actions and is making themselves a target.

Both of these statements can be (and IMO are) true.

Yeah, updated my post to get to the previous point. It's a one-sided problem. The initial aggressor has the ability to steal the weapon but the other person has no recourse if the aggressor hides it in his inventory. It's not very fair.
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