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Author Topic: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules  (Read 10926 times)

FinalHeaven

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2020, 11:53:36 AM »
The most important takeaway here is to be 100% familiar with the rules and, if you're in doubt,  talk to a DM.  Just in this thread is a huge amount of misconceptions about what is and isn't allowed.

Also, as Iridni said, players are often dishonest.   Whether its intentional or not, it's best not to assume everything you hear is 100% accurate if you've not witnessed it first hand for yourself.



ILLY6666

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2020, 12:03:55 PM »
I could write a whole essay on how PVP here and the mindset that surrounds it is not at ALL constructive and harms RP more than helps it, but I'll attempt to keep it brief.

I agree with their points, so I won't repeat what has already been said by them but instead offer another point to the mix.

Bounties: As it stands right now, these can be written freely by the PC in charge within the set limits. The limits pertain to how much they can offer in reward, as some rewards only NPCs can offer (DMs) and you also required DM oversight for such as Vaulting.

Consequentially, no matter how small your bounty may be, that gives the entire server permission to attack you on sight in any part of the server (as long as it's not before NPCs that would react) without any kind of RP. Which in an ideal word is to allow for sneakster bounty hunters to retain their advantage but I feel I speak for many when I say that this advantage is used primarily to gank as Khornite has previously mentioned. As such the consequence is that guard PCs have a reach that extends throughout the whole server. Or alternatively, any group or other PC the bounty is in conflict with can use that as an excuse to engage them in PvP without any kind of RP.

If focus is to be had in rewriting the PvP rules, then the bounty system itself should also be looked at, in my opinion.
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2020, 12:16:01 PM »
I could write a whole essay on how PVP here and the mindset that surrounds it is not at ALL constructive and harms RP more than helps it, but I'll attempt to keep it brief.

1) Stealth is so insanely overpowered here. Stealth is one of the few skills where you can easily get it into the high 80s with relative ease. If I cared, my FIGHTER with ZERO ranks in sneaking could hit a 40 stealth with just gear alone. It's insanity. No other skills have THAT MUCH gear that is THAT EASY to get. You can literally take every slot of gear on your character and drop in a +4/+5 stealth item. Then the "visibility" system just further helps stealthers. This encourages the gank PVP that we see so often. I know the server is not balanced around PVP but this one is...really bad. Really, really, bad.

2) The corpse system is a GREAT idea in theory. In practice? With the corpse hiding? It gives players (as stated before) the ability to perma characters. Players can TAKE AWAY your ability to raise through the mists, I think that was a mistake. If someone wants to ensure someone is dead and stays dead, all they  have to do is rotate a corpse's location every few days or once a week. The server is MASSIVE. There have been characters who had 20+ people looking for them FOR MONTHS and the body was still not found. The player just gave up on every playing that character again and was robbed of that fun that they could have had. Maybe get rid of players being able to get rid of mist-raising. Or add in an option where if a corpse has been hidden for 3 months, players can go to the vistani or something and sacrifice a lot of gold or the person to be raised can sacrifice EXP at the pillar of light in order to get a HINT of where their body is.

3) The fact that people can effectively perma other characters breeds paranoia. Which encourages people to be as ganky as possible in PVP as they can. I've seen people stand on the EDGE of rendering distance, take a shot with a flintlock, run away hasted, go back, take another shot, later, rinse, repeat until the person they were after is dead. How is that fun for the person getting roflstomped by an exploit that can't be proven short of a screen recorder? I've seen people literally record their PVP settings (Hell, I still got links). Why is "hey, I better boot up my screen recorder for my gank" even a thought that should occur to someone?

4) AFK ganking. People will just follow targets around, wait for them to AFK, then move in for their gank. I know with how the server is set up, you can't really have an AFK mechanical form of protection or let people access the AFK hall from anywhere. You also can't have a system in place where people can just run to the DMs every time theyre mad at the result of a PVP and say they were AFK, either. THere's no perfect solution here, but with the rules as they are, it encourages people to follow others around and wait until they're AFK to go for their gank...Or to leave their character hidden and AFK overnight and just read whatever they overheard while the player slept. It's like Raid: Shadow Legends! It plays itself! lol. Guys, it you have to go AFK, just log out.

God, I could go on and on, but I don't want to talk your ears off! Glad to hear changes are coming!

1. You can easily get stealth to 80's through a massive skill, feat and money investment, like with every other skill. Besides, detection skills can be leveled just as easily, especially Listen.

2. I also heard of cases where corpses have been found in the spawns of a few hours.

3. Paranoia is part of the setting, and like we have said before, you need a legitimate reason to engage in PVP and corpsehide someone. You can't just go on a murder spree.

4. AFK ganking is against the rules and should be reported immediately.

1) Splash in a few levels of fighter, the investment isn't that much. Again, without a single point in stealth skills, I can easily get in the 40s. You also gloss over the point I make of how easy it is to max out stealth via gear and the amount of +5 stealth gear vs other skills. Stealth gear is absurdly common.

2) Correct, but that doesn't really disprove my point at all, does it? Nor does it even address my point.

3) Yes, paranoia is part of the setting. But again, you are evading my point that the system in place causes paranoia which encourages people to play the game in that results in actions that are...pretty munchkin. Look at the example of PVP that I give and tell me how something like what I describe (which DOES happen on this server) how does janky stuff like that which is just -barely- legal, contribute to RP?

4) I have been told the opposite by DMs as "the same risk applies to all" and have personally seen AFK PVP upheld by DM events.
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2020, 12:29:46 PM »
I've lost two PC's I put 5+ years into due to metagaming. I had one PC that was being ganked on a daily basis simply because the guy could. I've reported each and every instance. I've included screenshots, and evidence in each. Absolutely nothing has happened despite my reports. I was never even notified if the 'investigations' were finished or what the results were. I was left completely out of it. And I watched the offenders get away with it. I guess I'm not entirely sure I have faith in 'reporting' things anymore due to my experiences reporting things.

I have no issues reporting on the time I had a misunderstanding of the rules and received my warning about PvP. But of course I took the next step and spoke with a DM for almost an hour through discord about my misunderstanding. Now that I know what I did wrong I have a better understanding of how to properly engage in RP/PVP and thus use such actions in a manner that advances at least one story properly. But that is the thing. Once PVP is initialized and done properly within the rules, the loser of the PvP has potential for their story to end. If the proper rp happens, and then by the rules PvP is warranted, then it comes down to two player's deciding to not give ground as the result of this is PvP. If you happen to lose this battle, then you have to accept the consequences of not backing down during the rp prior. However, this doesnt mean that the attack happens immediately when the rp happens. It is very possible the character walks away angry and lets that fester and later decides to attack when they see the person doing something similar or likely the same thing. This would be one of those instances where they come from stealth and attack you, however there was rp. It was just 1, 3, 10 days ago. Doesnt mean that there wasnt rp. We play in a persistent world and persistently performing the same actions comes with consequences.

And of course as mentioned by everyone else, if its not proper rp and they attack you seek out a DM. They can confirm if it was or wasn't, and take the appropriate actions as such.

As for corpse hiding... a legally hidden corpse is only a matter of time before it is found. You can't log out with it on you, so its not like it is permanently sitting in someone's inventory. Sure moving it around means people have to search everywhere many times and often, but back to the persistent world, it means the attacker has to continue to do that in order to prevent the person's revival.

As for the "ethics" of PvP and the ability for one player to close another player. This goes back to your choices of rp. If you don't want a character closed don't rp situations where that is possible. Can't avoid it? That just isn't true, you can walk away from any rp session for as simple a reason as your PC is annoyed or tired of those situations.

This is just my take on rp with PvP, it may not all be correct or the best ideas, but we are all adults and should be able to have a server with PvP and accept those consequences, even if it means you have to restart with a new character.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2020, 12:38:19 PM »
3) The fact that people can effectively perma other characters breeds paranoia. Which encourages people to be as ganky as possible in PVP as they can.

  This has forever been my experience and grievance with PvP on PotM. It is the single worst aspect of the server over my decade here, and always has been. People invest so much time in their characters that it paralyzes most players (unless they have some form of support- be it DM or faction) from engaging in what could be endless storylines that the DMs would hardly even need to peek on.

   A persistent world was never the model for 3.5, if it had been, the setting and lore would have adapted to accommodate for such things as player conflict, to help *build* tension and narrative rather than render it viable only to those ready to gamble everything, on the chance they won't be horrendously murdered by someone they never even knew existed. Or, again, those with some form of *insurance*. The answer is never a ready one, but those in the reins get to decide the direction of the vision. I, personally, would develop the lore to incorporate perhaps two systems to accommodate player agency of narrative and freedom of form.

   First, I'd have the base death system such that you could always bring your character back, unless certain conditions were met. Such as DM intervention, and maybe have a 'timer' that people would need to remain dead if PCs did certain things with a corpse. But nothing permanent. At worst, I'd have it so after that length of time, they would have to mist raise themselves, undergoing that loss of xp. So that's first.

   Second, I'd develop a system where PCs could somehow attune themselves through some lore-oriented artifacts or magic so that when they died, while they might lose *something*, they would still respawn at a faction or appropriate location. This could be tied to 'the soul' and have a limited number of *strikes*.  It would make it so people could be free to engage in many types of PvP and never feel the OOC pressure that they could lose literally years of investment over a single, literally unfair (so far as a shared narrative goes) engagement. This could spawn faction wars, and all sorts of amazing stories without the DMs needing much involvement at all. Obviously the specifics of the system would gear it one way or another, there would still be consequence, only now it could more gradually build into a final showdown or series of events. Maybe even have it so through this lore-artifact, or mist-stone, or w/e, that PCs could openly sacrifice whatever saving grace they have remaining for a truly epic show of presence.

   These are not clear answers, but merely distant visions I would immediately pursue were I the one at the reins in charge. You guys have done an amazing job building this place over the year, but some elements are archaic and in much need of improvement if certain long standing grievances are to be satisfied. These mechanics I propose literally make your lives easier, as everyone now plays by a definite set of core rules, which, naturally, the DMs hold sway over due to circumstance and scenario.

   My  :twocents:

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2020, 12:39:53 PM »

Bounties: As it stands right now, these can be written freely by the PC in charge within the set limits. The limits pertain to how much they can offer in reward, as some rewards only NPCs can offer (DMs) and you also required DM oversight for such as Vaulting.

Consequentially, no matter how small your bounty may be, that gives the entire server permission to attack you on sight in any part of the server (as long as it's not before NPCs that would react) without any kind of RP. Which in an ideal word is to allow for sneakster bounty hunters to retain their advantage but I feel I speak for many when I say that this advantage is used primarily to gank as Khornite has previously mentioned. As such the consequence is that guard PCs have a reach that extends throughout the whole server. Or alternatively, any group or other PC the bounty is in conflict with can use that as an excuse to engage them in PvP without any kind of RP.

If focus is to be had in rewriting the PvP rules, then the bounty system itself should also be looked at, in my opinion.

People end up having bounties only after they opt in conflict. I can't see where's  the issue here. Not everyone can attack the character who has bounty on their head, but rather groups or individuals who are involved in a conflict behind the standing bounty, that had ic-ly conversations or ic message exchange with groups of interest.
If the guards realize they can't bring to justice someone they proclaimed criminal they're free to seek support and aid. Again, that looks logical.
The characters who repeatedly violate their banishment or ignore their own standing bounty by remaining in the area where they're wanted or banned from should face consequences sooner or later and logic says that should happen with them sooner rather than later.

I am also curious what sort of roleplaying activities do you expect from an assassin type of pc, who's likely working alone heavily relying on surprise effect on a server where any kind of skill/stat roll, that can be used as alternative to usual red/hostile mechanic,  can be ignored during encounter?

Derek Jeter

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2020, 12:42:33 PM »

Bounties: As it stands right now, these can be written freely by the PC in charge within the set limits. The limits pertain to how much they can offer in reward, as some rewards only NPCs can offer (DMs) and you also required DM oversight for such as Vaulting.

Consequentially, no matter how small your bounty may be, that gives the entire server permission to attack you on sight in any part of the server (as long as it's not before NPCs that would react) without any kind of RP. Which in an ideal word is to allow for sneakster bounty hunters to retain their advantage but I feel I speak for many when I say that this advantage is used primarily to gank as Khornite has previously mentioned. As such the consequence is that guard PCs have a reach that extends throughout the whole server. Or alternatively, any group or other PC the bounty is in conflict with can use that as an excuse to engage them in PvP without any kind of RP.

If focus is to be had in rewriting the PvP rules, then the bounty system itself should also be looked at, in my opinion.

People end up having bounties only after they opt in conflict. I can't see where's  the issue here. Not everyone can attack the character who has bounty on their head, but rather groups or individuals who are involved in a conflict behind the standing bounty, that had ic-ly conversations or ic message exchange with groups of interest.
If the guards realize they can't bring to justice someone they proclaimed criminal they're free to seek support and aid. Again, that looks logical.
The characters who repeatedly violate their banishment or ignore their own standing bounty by remaining in the area where they're wanted or banned from should face consequences sooner or later and logic says that should happen with them sooner rather than later.

I am also curious what sort of roleplaying activities do you expect from an assassin type of pc, who's likely working alone heavily relying on surprise effect on a server where any kind of skill/stat roll, that can be used as alternative to usual red/hostile mechanic,  can be ignored during encounter?

Completely false. People get bountied without opting into conflict or engaging in war with a faction, a lot of times unknowingly they are bountied. Sometimes they are banished and log out and dont even KNOW they are banished and log back in and BAM bounty because they logged out and logged back in in the place.
And a bounty is basically a timer to death or even CLOSURE
People are bountied for existing.
And a bounty is a free ticket to no RP pvp. And no rp pvp is disgusting, and completely defies what they say is a story driven server.

The rules do need tweaking. Massive tweaking.
Getting a bounty put on you for sneezing and then being able to be no RP AFK pvp ganked by level 20 monk full body concealment the flash death squad is hilarious and an antithesis to what a ROLEPLAY SERVER is supposed to be, a server that is RP centric.
And of course people have quit because the rules are BAD.
So either change that rule of a bounty being a basically death ticket waiting to be counted down, when you're in mist camp or another freaking land away from Vallaki, when the bounty setters are not the protectors of the world, or make it so the rule only applies in the land its in, But I think RP needs to be the main focus, not a faction death squad. It puts too much power in the hands of the faction, or a small group of players, or even a clique. Which is why when a DM says oh players cant close your character, they really actually kind of can, and while you're technically right, you are also aware you are technically wrong. And I hate it, and I hate to see people quit because of it. And everyone is in the wrong. If people could just RP instead of OOC smacking or PVPing the server would be a better place. But sadly its too late, and its happened plenty before and it will probably continue to happen. But the rules need to be changed BAD.

I cannot comment specifically on these instances because I do not have all the knowledge but I do agree the rules need changing
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 01:21:19 PM by Derek Jeter »

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2020, 12:45:25 PM »
Regarding bounties, this is an escalation and a form of RP that *can* lead to PvP. But it also gives the player a chance to de-escalate. (For example, when Sus had a bounty, she eventually turned herself in, and a lot of RP resulted from that.)

It doesn't seem realistic to me to have a rule against players' offering bounties. Nor do I think that just because a PC has a bounty, all other PCs have open season.

To speak from what I know, the Kinship, for example, in the time I've been there does not hunt PCs with a bounty on them. If we have other reasons for going after that PC, we would use the bounty as cover for operating in Barovia, since we are expected to obey local law and now have a reason that the Garda won't bust our chops for dealing with the problem.

As for "sneakster bounty hunters," yes, it is open season as far as they are concerned. But these PCs lead some of the riskiest lives on the server themselves.

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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2020, 12:45:36 PM »
Quote
1) Splash in a few levels of fighter, the investment isn't that much. Again, without a single point in stealth skills, I can easily get in the 40s. You also gloss over the point I make of how easy it is to max out stealth via gear and the amount of +5 stealth gear vs other skills. Stealth gear is absurdly common.

Uhhh, a naked, brand new level 1 Bard with no gear at all casting Amplify will have the ability to detect a person with 40-44 Move Silently. That's why stealth gear exists in the form it does. And Listen/Spot gear is also pretty common (particularly listen). I've come across around +20 in Jackal's rings and Helm of the Bat in the last couple days.

It takes a significant investment to be okay at stealthing, and a significantly smaller investment to be better than that at detecting.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 12:48:05 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2020, 12:51:18 PM »
Completely false. People are bountied all the time without opting into conflict

If you have proof of this then it should be brought to a DM because it is against the rules.

On the other hand, your definition of "opting into conflict" may not be entirely in line with what is within the bounds of the rules.

Furthermore, the rule regarding roleplay is not inherently to mean that an assailant must roleplay openly with their target before committing a hit.  It is meant to mean that some form of roleplay did occur to get the target PC in trouble to begin with.  As with a lot of roleplay on the server, you might not have the full picture.




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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2020, 12:56:14 PM »
Quote
1) Splash in a few levels of fighter, the investment isn't that much. Again, without a single point in stealth skills, I can easily get in the 40s. You also gloss over the point I make of how easy it is to max out stealth via gear and the amount of +5 stealth gear vs other skills. Stealth gear is absurdly common.

Uhhh, a naked, brand new level 1 Bard with no gear at all casting Amplify will have the ability to detect a person with 40-44 Move Silently. That's why stealth gear exists in the form it does. And Listen/Spot gear is also pretty common (particularly listen). I've come across around +20 in Jackal's rings and Helm of the Bat in the last couple days.

It takes a significant investment to be okay at stealthing, and a significantly smaller investment to be better than that at detecting.

There are also at most 2-3 very good stealthers who can avoid dedicated detectors while fully buffed while relying on scrolls that last not as long as a druid’s spot feat and spells such as owls insight and true seeing. Detect will easily win in a closed room or area if you are prepared while, yes, stealthing will have an advantage in a vacuum due to weather and ease of moving behind people or it being night.
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Derek Jeter

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2020, 01:04:07 PM »
Completely false. People are bountied all the time without opting into conflict

If you have proof of this then it should be brought to a DM because it is against the rules.

On the other hand, your definition of "opting into conflict" may not be entirely in line with what is within the bounds of the rules.

Furthermore, the rule regarding roleplay is not inherently to mean that an assailant must roleplay openly with their target before committing a hit.  It is meant to mean that some form of roleplay did occur to get the target PC in trouble to begin with.  As with a lot of roleplay on the server, you might not have the full picture.

That is certainly possible in some instances. I still think the rules need tweaking though :D

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2020, 01:04:16 PM »
Completely false. People are bountied all the time without opting into conflict or engaging in war with a faction, a lot of times unknowingly they are bountied. Sometimes they are banished and log out and dont even KNOW they are banished and log back in and BAM bounty because they logged out and logged back in in the place.
And a bounty is basically a timer to death or even CLOSURE

The rules do need tweaking. Massive tweaking.
Getting a bounty put on you for sneezing and then being able to be no RP AFK pvp ganked by level 20 monk full body concealment the flash death squad is hilarious and an antithesis to what a ROLEPLAY SERVER is supposed to be, a server that is RP centric.
And of course people have quit because the rules are BAD.
So either change that rule of a bounty being a basically death ticket waiting to be counted down, when you're in mist camp or another freaking land away from Vallaki, when the bounty setters are not the protectors of the world, or make it so the rule only applies in the land its in, But I think RP needs to be the main focus, not a faction death squad. It puts too much power in the hands of the faction, or a small group of players, or even a clique. Which is why when a DM says oh players cant close your character, they really actually kind of can, and while you're technically right, you are also aware you are technically wrong. And I hate it, and I hate to see people quit because of it. And everyone is in the wrong. If people could just RP instead of OOC smacking or PVPing the server would be a better place. But sadly its too late, and its happened plenty before and it will probably continue to happen. But the rules need to be changed BAD.

The case with the pcs whose banishment was violated because of logging out and not being ported from an area should be discussed with DM.
Summons are not bounties. Don't mistake those. Also no one ever forbid to negotiate/ discuss conditions on how the bounties can be removed.

I'll try to ignore your commentary about lvl 20 monks, because I don't find my previous post personified, there was no intention to target a specific player, and I'll ask you to do the same.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2020, 01:05:33 PM »
Completely false. People are bountied all the time without opting into conflict or engaging in war with a faction, a lot of times unknowingly they are bountied. Sometimes they are banished and log out and dont even KNOW they are banished and log back in and BAM bounty because they logged out and logged back in in the place.
And a bounty is basically a timer to death or even CLOSURE

The rules do need tweaking. Massive tweaking.
Getting a bounty put on you for sneezing and then being able to be no RP AFK pvp ganked by level 20 monk full body concealment the flash death squad is hilarious and an antithesis to what a ROLEPLAY SERVER is supposed to be, a server that is RP centric.
And of course people have quit because the rules are BAD.
So either change that rule of a bounty being a basically death ticket waiting to be counted down, when you're in mist camp or another freaking land away from Vallaki, when the bounty setters are not the protectors of the world, or make it so the rule only applies in the land its in, But I think RP needs to be the main focus, not a faction death squad. It puts too much power in the hands of the faction, or a small group of players, or even a clique. Which is why when a DM says oh players cant close your character, they really actually kind of can, and while you're technically right, you are also aware you are technically wrong. And I hate it, and I hate to see people quit because of it. And everyone is in the wrong. If people could just RP instead of OOC smacking or PVPing the server would be a better place. But sadly its too late, and its happened plenty before and it will probably continue to happen. But the rules need to be changed BAD.

The case with the pcs whose banishment was violated because of logging out and not being ported from an area should be discussed with DM.
Summons are not bounties. Don't mistake those. Also no one ever forbid to negotiate/ discuss conditions on how the bounties can be removed.

I'll try to ignore your commentary about lvl 20 monks, because I don't find my previous post personified, there was no intention to target a specific player, and I'll ask you to do the same.

Oh Im not targeting anyone specifically, I just think monk is OP :D

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2020, 01:05:51 PM »
Alright folks, this is veering very close to discussing individual cases. If you have concerns about PvP, take them up to a DM, this is not the place to air your grievances regarding specific situations.

If this keeps going on, we'll lock this thread.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2020, 01:11:42 PM »
I think one big thing that should be cleared up is what counts as "opting into conflict?"

I will give a personal example from my past here: I had a character who possessed an item, but had not actively herself sought conflict, and was ganked with no rp, and corpse hidden.

So that left me confused and upset. Understandably, especially when the attacker wouldn't let me know why.  It took several attempts before a DM finally confirmed to me that it was legit, and there were things behind the scenes around said item. I had not wanted to get into pvp, and had no idea that by having that item I was setting myself up for pvp.

Beyond the opting into conflict, I think the whole 'for advancement of story and rp" could use some aswell. And, I still want to know about burned corpses. Can they be identified? If they aren't meant to be, perhaps a tag could be added to the item noting that? Could save a lot of time, otherwise if it's meant that ashes and bone chips can be identified like corpses... Why then, can we burn them?
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2020, 01:26:29 PM »
I think one big thing that should be cleared up is what counts as "opting into conflict?"

I will give a personal example from my past here: I had a character who possessed an item, but had not actively herself sought conflict, and was ganked with no rp, and corpse hidden.

So that left me confused and upset. Understandably, especially when the attacker wouldn't let me know why.  It took several attempts before a DM finally confirmed to me that it was legit, and there were things behind the scenes around said item. I had not wanted to get into pvp, and had no idea that by having that item I was setting myself up for pvp.

That's a bit too vague to comment on but normally just "possessing" an item is not grounds for PvP, unless of course you stole that item or when you acquired it did so at the detriment of someone else, part of a plot or something. Opting in means having participated in the escalation of the conflict knowingly; as per the rules "this encompasses extensive provoking, aggressive or confrontational behaviour by the victim, if they are intruding upon you and extensively refuse to withdraw, or if they are a member of a faction your faction is in conflict with. Retaliation of an attack of self or close ally is also legitimate reason to engage in PvP." Simply being insulted is not grounds for PvP, the keyword is extensive. It has to be warranted; you can't just kill someone because they sneezed or you feel they looked at you strangely. As for retaliation, it can be via an assassin or bounty, but then both must uphold PvP rules (the one who pays for the justifiable cause, the one who does the hit has to respect the rest (hostile and whatnot)).
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 01:29:33 PM by EO »

ladylena

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2020, 01:31:56 PM »
I think one big thing that should be cleared up is what counts as "opting into conflict?"

I will give a personal example from my past here: I had a character who possessed an item, but had not actively herself sought conflict, and was ganked with no rp, and corpse hidden.

So that left me confused and upset. Understandably, especially when the attacker wouldn't let me know why.  It took several attempts before a DM finally confirmed to me that it was legit, and there were things behind the scenes around said item. I had not wanted to get into pvp, and had no idea that by having that item I was setting myself up for pvp.

That's a bit too vague to comment on but normally just "possessing" an item is not grounds for PvP, unless of course you stole that item or when you acquired it did so at the detriment of someone else, part of a plot or something. Opting in means having participated in the escalation of the conflict knowingly; as per the rules "this encompasses extensive provoking, aggressive or confrontational behaviour by the victim, if they are intruding upon you and extensively refuse to withdraw, or if they are a member of a faction your faction is in conflict with. Retaliation of an attack of self or close ally is also legitimate reason to engage in PvP." Simply being insulted is not grounds for PvP, the keyword is extensive. It has to be warranted; you can't just kill someone because they sneezed or you feel they looked at you strangely. As for retaliation, it can be via an assassin or bounty, but then both must uphold PvP rules (the one who pays for the justifiable cause, the one who does the hit has to respect the rest (hostile and whatnot)).

Well it was a event that happened years ago, and was dealt with, so I didn't want to get too into it, but I did not opt into any form of pvp knowingly. So, I want to make sure I'm clear here... If out of no where you're killed and corpse hidden and can't for the life of you recall engaging in hostilities with another, that's not ok and needs to be checked?

Also what about burned corpses and identification relating to those?
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2020, 01:35:24 PM »
Quote
Well it was a event that happened years ago, and was dealt with, so I didn't want to get too into it, but I did not opt into any form of pvp knowingly. So, I want to make sure I'm clear here... If out of no where you're killed and corpse hidden and can't for the life of you recall engaging in hostilities with another, that's not ok and needs to be checked?

Also what about burned corpses and identification relating to those?

Yeah, if the former happens, check with a DM. Usually we'll ask the other party why they PvPed you and determine the course of action from there. Sometimes you may not remember it but it happened.

And yeah, it's fair to "identify" remains; if we didn't want players to ID them we'd just not put the name on them.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2020, 01:44:11 PM »
Burned corpses that are bone and ash retain some form of easy identification?
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2020, 01:46:02 PM »
Burned corpses that are bone and ash retain some form of easy identification?

Yeah, for simplicity's sake; if we didn't want that we'd make them anonymous. In this case it's a "gaming experience trumps realism" thing.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2020, 01:48:32 PM »
Burned corpses that are bone and ash retain some form of easy identification?

Yeah, for simplicity's sake; if we didn't want that we'd make them anonymous. In this case it's a "gaming experience trumps realism" thing.

Both good and bad. I was sort of hoping that ashed corpses could take over corpse hiding, but either way, looking forward to the clarifications coming up EO
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2020, 02:05:14 PM »
As a previously mentioned "ganker," I believe I'll offer my opinion.

Once upon a time I didn't know how PvP worked, and I got in trouble for it, made changes, and now I know how to correctly deal with it.

As someone playing a character actively trying to engage in conflict, I will say that I establish my own OOC rules. I don't harshly go after characters who are grossly under-leveled, and if I do it is just RP threatening to build story. I try to set up some form of RP before and after, which may or may not come at the cost of some DM assistance. Mainly, I try to be accommodating to the victim, so they know what's coming and can prepare, or not, for it.

However, with that said, dropping someone from stealth, unless you know for a fact the player will participate in some RP, is really the only option. If I just gave everyone the benefit of the doubt and assumed they'd play along in RP, I wouldn't still have a character. Popping out and essentially saying, "Hey, I'm here to kill you," is most of the time, social and character suicide unless you're prepared for every possible outcome. Granted, with the new disguise system this is made far easier, and parlor tricks with certain spells aren't needed as much. However, there are still cases where the character cannot utilize that.

Ultimately, it all falls on player discretion and how each player presents the situation to one another. I realize not all attackers will be courteous in the PvP exchange, and vice versa. While I wish it could be all roleplay and fun story time, sometimes that's just not how it works.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2020, 02:18:48 PM »
I have been avoiding playing evil characters or playing characters with slight chance of being assasinated because of corpse hiding,I did look for people's corpses and it was really really unfun with possibility of lack of any ic clues and the murderers can just move the corpses when they are in different timezone
One of the things i would like to be  added is addition of some way of branding people that are carrying corpses(maybe smell?)  this increases the risk of relocation of corpses.
also maybe give someway for spirits to be able to track their corpse over a long time(a month or so ?) so if the spot hasnt changed so it  could be found so maybe the player that is dead can see if the corpse hider is breaking rules .

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2020, 03:24:36 PM »
I have been avoiding playing evil characters or playing characters with slight chance of being assasinated because of corpse hiding,I did look for people's corpses and it was really really unfun with possibility of lack of any ic clues and the murderers can just move the corpses when they are in different timezone
One of the things i would like to be  added is addition of some way of branding people that are carrying corpses(maybe smell?)  this increases the risk of relocation of corpses.
also maybe give someway for spirits to be able to track their corpse over a long time(a month or so ?) so if the spot hasnt changed so it  could be found so maybe the player that is dead can see if the corpse hider is breaking rules .

If you have any inclination to believe that your corpse is in a spot that is violating the rules (or, indeed, the corpse of someone you know is in such a spot), then you should contact a DM. They have the capability to easily identify such things and will take steps immediately to resolve it. The results of their labor will most likely not be made known to you - but they will look, and unless we're accusing DMs of being a secret cabal bent against certain players, they will make sure things are above board.

As long as corpse-hiding is legal, the ability to track down your corpse would without doubt result in tells sent and people suddenly "coincidentally" finding bodies.

As a more general address to the topic at hand, I won't pretend that corpse-hiding is a perfect solution. I also won't pretend that the negative experiences people have shared or implied are invalid. However, I do think that some people want a system where they always have the option to say "Time out! PvP is one of my red lights!" and frankly that's as damaging to a shared narrative as people getting punked and dumped for thin reasoning (whichyoucanreporttoaDM).

This issue is a part of the nature of being a large-scale shared narrative. Smaller communities can get away without systems like this because all of the players are reasonably able to be in touch with each other at all times, and those small communities typically have a very concrete shared mindset. I've seen enclaves on large, relatively consequence-free servers that emulate this as a necessity, while the rest of said server generally continues either in rather light storylines (because consequence is 100% at player whim) or what I call the "feedback loop of conflict", best described by Chumbawumba's 1997 hit Tubthumping.

"I get knocked down, but I get up again
You are never gonna keep me down"

For us, there need to be tools to provide an actual cessation/delay of conflict, to prevent the feedback loop. Some large communities do this via a "New Life Rule", whereby you can't simply stand up after getting knocked down and go to your local garda/newspaper/do-gooder and say "Here is my 20/20 description of the people who killed me and the dark secrets that I uncovered that I was killed for knowing" - some do it by having a system where after a certain number of deaths, you're just dead, incentivizing de-escalation. PotM's death system is how we handle it. And it could be better! As EO says, he's working on some changes.

FinalHeaven actually raised a relevant point, in that I believe there might be some misconception of what qualifies as "opting in" to conflict. Opting-in is not sending a tell to a faction leader saying that they can kill you, it is willingly having your character engage in behaviors that lead to conflict. Striving openly against the tyranny of the garda or gathering/spilling the secrets of a guild of rogues and assassins would be good examples that might warrant being hidden for a while, or indefinitely if you decided to act against these powerful institutions without allies. If these sorts of things didn't count as opting-in, it would be unfair to those your character acts against, as it would render them powerless to react.

Without some means to ensure de-escalation, or to cease/delay conflict, stories very quickly become slug-fests that don't make much sense and take on a tinge of absurdity. Characters trend towards open disregard of persons and groups that should warrant a degree of care in dealing with and death cheapens (and it's not exactly expensive right now). Risk creates good stories - it's why people like Game of Thrones, Martin manages to make his characters feel like they don't have plot-armor, even if it's not true.

I'll leave off with some advice for those afraid of stealthers. If you've done things that cause you worry that people might be skulking in the shadows looking for you, invest in detection. As high as stealthers can get their scores, you can get yours (especially listen) and for cheaper (especially listen). Keep moving - stealth is slow, don't stand still for them in a public place. Keep your meetings in private places - lock, ward, trap the entrances. Actually consider what you would do if you were being hunted - would you carry on with life as normal, and then be shocked when you were found?

This ended up being a lot more than I intended to type, so I'll actually leave off with a brief tl;dr.

  • Report it to the DM if you suspect a body has been hidden in an illegal location, your's or others'
  • Risk creates good stories - look at Game of Thrones
  • Some system for de-escalation, cessation, or delay of conflict needs to exist to give stories meaning
  • Opting-in to conflict can be done in more ways than you might think
  • If you're being hunted, act like it
  • Be excellent to one another
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