Author Topic: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules  (Read 10918 times)

Nepharian

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On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« on: January 15, 2020, 08:43:30 AM »
Hello everyone,

I realize this might seem 'salty' to some, but I assure you this is not my intention.
Everything written here is my own opinion and/or concerns.

I've been here for more than a year now, and PoTM has yielded me many, MANY amazing hours of RP with a ton of interesting characters.
There has been deep stories, absolute fear, intrigue and no small amount  of character development - and I have absolutely enjoyed it all.

What I have not enjoyed though, is the Bounty/Assassination/PvP ruleset.

In my opninion, PvP should always be used to further the narrative. To add to it and to create dispute and intrigue between characters and/or factions.
So I am sorry, but buffing your character to demi-god level and jumping out of nowhere to murder another character, and then corpsehide them in some faraway location (or in a faction building!), does not add to the roleplay or narrative.

It detracts from it.
And it can absolutely destroy storylines.

I agree that IC actions should have IC consequences (Of course! We are not playing a children's game!), but working on a character for more than a year (some of you other oldies, 8+ years!) and then suddenly have them taken from you because of the no-RP PvP bounty system... that really hurts.

I know it is just a game, and that I probably shouldn't get so attached to my characters, but I can't help that. And I know I'm not alone in this.

Can we please have a look at these rules? Again, PvP should be used as a means to further the narrative - not just end storylines in a matter of seconds.


Just my humble opinion on something that has been more than a little painful, to more than a few people.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 08:47:19 AM by Nepharian »

LivingWasteland

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2020, 08:54:42 AM »
I've shared this mindset for a long time. I feel corpse hiding is the biggest loophole in the rules. Not only can it force a character to closure their character (Which I was under the understanding no PLAYER could force another PLAYER to close their character.) But hiding an impaired corpse or locking it behind a door for 6+ months or longer is exactly that.

This rule here:

"- Hiding, delivering irrevocable wounds or burning corpses falls under the general rules of PvP and is considered as such."

Seems to completely undermine the following rules:

- PvP should always be done to further the positive experience of all sides and as part of a roleplay event. Turning instantly toward trying to kill each other seldom leads to more roleplay, and much more often just ends it. Try alternate methods in playing out the IC fighting first (for example, use emotes, rolls and subdual) before taking the other character's life, and never PvP to get a sense of winning, but always to further the story.

- Unless you have justifiable reason to assume that the counterpart is interested in the form of PvP and that it will enhance their experience, your character may not actively attack another character without overriding in-character reason and only when the victim has actively sought into the conflict. This encompasses extensive provoking, aggressive or confrontational behaviour by the victim, if they are intruding upon you and extensively refuse to withdraw, or if they are a member of a faction your faction is in conflict with. Retaliation of an attack of self or close ally is also legitimate reason to engage in PvP. In doubt, seek DM advice.

And of course, the most important rule,

3. Always treat your fellow players, DMs and developers with respect.

Iridni Ren

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2020, 08:57:33 AM »
Just as an FYI, EO has said in Discord that they are going to make an announcement soon with revisions to the current system.

So stay tuned.

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Nepharian

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2020, 09:01:50 AM »
Just as an FYI, EO has said in Discord that they are going to make an announcement soon with revisions to the current system.

So stay tuned.

This is great news! I wasn't aware of that.
I still think that, at least for now, this thread is relevant though.

Iridni Ren

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2020, 09:08:48 AM »
I'm not trying to shut down discussion :D

We had a good, healthy talk about this in Discord--yesterday? within the last couple of days--and only want those experiencing recent pain to know the Team is acutely aware that things need to change and have something in the pipeline.

Maybe they'll give some hints as to what here because I'm curious myself!

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2020, 09:22:49 AM »
There is a very simple rule which perhaps might help you:  If you cannot stand the thought of having your character taken away from you, either by being bountied or corpsehiden, don't engage in rp which can lead to that.

I must say that I don't quite understand what is your problem with current PVP rules is? Not all characters are build for a face-to-face duel, and some of them are made specifically for stealth kills (eg. assassin PRC). There are ways to counter it by having detection skills, avoiding places where you can be attacked and so on and so forth.

PVP is a natural way of enforcing consequences between player characters. Currently we have a very transparent set of rules for PVP and corpsehiding, which were even updated to make looking for a character's corpse easier, and like Iridni said, we will soon see some changes for the current system. 

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2020, 09:26:47 AM »
There have been instances where a character has done nothing other than know/be related to someone who did something wrong. So I wholeheartedly disagree with your 'natural consequences' statement. Bystanders get caught up in it. And that really isn't fair to the folks who's only crime is being associated with someone who makes bad choices. Sometimes the victim is even unaware of the bad choices their associate makes that got them corpsed.

Arawn

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2020, 09:28:46 AM »
There have been instances where a character has done nothing other than know/be related to someone who did something wrong. So I wholeheartedly disagree with your 'natural consequences' statement. Bystanders get caught up in it. And that really isn't fair to the folks who's only crime is being associated with someone who makes bad choices. Sometimes the victim is even unaware of the bad choices their associate makes that got them corpsed.

If true—and remember, no player has or should have perfect knowledge of all secret IC things—that is a rulebreak and must be reported as such.
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2020, 09:34:58 AM »
I'm glad there is going to be a revision. I've always felt that the pvp rules were vague.

Kinga, sometimes you may not actively engage in rp that you think will lead to that, yet due to things behind the scenes that you do not know of, it can happen. I've experienced it personally. It's confusing and upsetting.

The rules say it should be done to further the story, but what story? One story ends when you kill them and corpse hide them. Personally, I really dont like corpse hiding. You can already burn the body to ashes and bone fragments.

I would love to see more clarity added to the rules. I believe that when there is going to be conflict it is polite to inform the other character of the impending assault, or at least to find out what they are comfortable with. Not everyone is ok with being ganked out of no where and corpse hidden. There are always other options. We have items that for rp reasons create amnesia, there are magic spells... There is mutilation, destroying the characters life through rumours, and other things.

Sure there are reasons to have someone killed, but I don't know... I've been on the end of some crummy gankings. No rp, just outta no where death. It's confusing, especially if you aren't aware of any hostility. Somewhere among ourselves we seem to have lost a civility of being open to discussing things done to other characters. I can recall at one point being told to straight up have 0 ooc communication, I've been on that receiving end and it feels salty. It didn't feel good for me to do either. We are here for fun, right?

PVP is needed for certain, but the rules need more clarification and less vagueness. I'd love to see something put in place to encourage alternative punishments than death, or even suggestions of what is permittable as an alternative to killing and corpse hiding. Also on that matter, what is the rule for finding a burned corpse? A body is easy, but the burned ones have always left me a little leery on how to identify
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Iridni Ren

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2020, 09:44:54 AM »
Although I like explicitly clear rules myself, given the infinite varieties of roleplay possible here, the rules will never be able to spell out every situation. Just as real-life laws require judges, we will always need DMs to interpret the rules and make decisions.

Additionally, rules cannot enforce being good sports. Ultimately as players, both aggressors and victims, we have to put fair play and the basic ethos of the server (as one of collaborative story-telling rather than competition) into play. To be sure, not everyone shares that ethos, which again necessitates the need for DM adjudication.

I hate corpse-hiding personally. But it has been a necessary mechanical crutch in trying to balance the desire for some not to closure their PCs against the need for that PC to at least be removed from the story for a time. Hopefully, the change will be something less painful to the players who experience it.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 09:59:39 AM by Iridni Ren »

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immasturgeon

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2020, 09:45:54 AM »
+1 to Kinga, +1 to Arawn, +1 Wrak

I understand that PvP may be unsettling and you feel like it is unfair to you. But turning that point of view 180, the "ganker" they may feel that they have no recourse to act save PvP. It is not excellent to them or their story for the antagonist to avoid consequences. The pendulum swings both ways. Both people need to be able to tell story, and often the person on the loosing end of PvP was not accommodating or willing to deescalate. If you think it's a no RP PvP report it and let the DMs sort it out.

As far as ganking. . . well that's well within the RP of many characters and classes. . . why would a rogue/assassin fight a fair battle with a paladin?

ladylena

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2020, 09:46:53 AM »
All you need to do to stop someone from rezzing is badly impair the corpse. That will stop them from coming back on their own.
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Nepharian

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2020, 09:48:33 AM »
The issue is that it very often puts an end to the story of the victim PC. And I find that in many cases, this is just not a good way to handle it.
I've nothing against PvP and oppression RP, but ending a character permanently is just way, way too easy... and I don't think it should be.
Not in most cases.

LivingWasteland

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2020, 09:59:37 AM »
I've lost two PC's I put 5+ years into due to metagaming. I had one PC that was being ganked on a daily basis simply because the guy could. I've reported each and every instance. I've included screenshots, and evidence in each. Absolutely nothing has happened despite my reports. I was never even notified if the 'investigations' were finished or what the results were. I was left completely out of it. And I watched the offenders get away with it. I guess I'm not entirely sure I have faith in 'reporting' things anymore due to my experiences reporting things.

Arawn

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2020, 10:07:36 AM »
I've lost two PC's I put 5+ years into due to metagaming. I had one PC that was being ganked on a daily basis simply because the guy could. I've reported each and every instance. I've included screenshots, and evidence in each. Absolutely nothing has happened despite my reports. I was never even notified if the 'investigations' were finished or what the results were. I was left completely out of it. And I watched the offenders get away with it. I guess I'm not entirely sure I have faith in 'reporting' things anymore due to my experiences reporting things.

Remember that the DM Team doesn't publicize or comment on individual disciplinary outcomes, so not hearing anything is in no way evidence that nothing was done. Unfortunately, for the same reason, I can't comment with specifics, but if you have any concerns about how any given issue was handled, you can and should speak to a member of the CC about it.
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2020, 10:28:36 AM »
The issue is that it very often puts an end to the story of the victim PC. And I find that in many cases, this is just not a good way to handle it.
I've nothing against PvP and oppression RP, but ending a character permanently is just way, way too easy... and I don't think it should be.
Not in most cases.

Stories are not meant to last an infinite amount of time and characters don't always get their dreamy happy endings. This is Ravenloft - stories are often meant to end in tragedy and woe, and I feel like many people have forgotten about that. You don't always win, you don't always get to do whatever you have planned. Your victories are meant to taste like ash, due to the losses your pc has sustained. Sometimes your character's life is cut short - it happens to the best of us. You can either be a good sport about it and appreciate the amazing story you had so far, or distract yourself with making a new pc and wait for others to rescue your characters. There is no way to hide someone permanently.

All you need to do to stop someone from rezzing is badly impair the corpse. That will stop them from coming back on their own.
But that doesn't stop others from resurrecting them. And what kind of consequence is that? Merely slap on the wrist. Imagine this: you have an obviously evil group, whose leader is killed and badly impaired. Of course many people in such situation have decided to leave the corpse and have the bad guy learn their lesson, but what if said bad guy keeps returning and returning ad infinitum by being resurrected by others from their group? What other way to prevent this than hide him temporarly?

ladylena

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2020, 10:30:54 AM »

All you need to do to stop someone from rezzing is badly impair the corpse. That will stop them from coming back on their own.
But that doesn't stop others from resurrecting them. Imagine this: you have an obviously evil group, whose leader is killed and badly impaired. Of course many people in such situation have decided to leave the corpse and have the bad guy learn their lesson, but what if the said bad guy keeps returning and returning ad infinitum by being resurrected by others from their group? What other way to prevent this than hide him temporarly? And what kind of consequence is that? Merely slap on the wrist.
[/quote]

That is why I asked about identifying a burned corpse.
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2020, 10:40:47 AM »
Im surprised it hasnt been pointed out before, but one of your first comments is actually false. You are NOT allowed to corpsehide anyone behind a door that cannot be unlock by open lock or bashing it down. That includes faction buildings, rented rooms, etc...

LivingWasteland

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2020, 10:42:34 AM »
It may be against the rules, but it does happen. One of my PCs was hidden in a rented tenement room for months. As long as the faction kept the rent paid, I was locked away. Nothing was done about it, though.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2020, 10:42:44 AM »
Im surprised it hasnt been pointed out before, but one of your first comments is actually false. You are NOT allowed to corpsehide anyone behind a door that cannot be unlock by open lock or bashing it down. That includes faction buildings, rented rooms, etc...

So that means all the corpses in the Vault in the citadel are breaking the rules?


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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2020, 10:45:17 AM »
Those are not hidden corpses. Anyone in the vault goes there at DM discretion.

Iridni Ren

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2020, 10:58:14 AM »
With DM approval, yes, a corpse can be kept behind a locked door. I've ICly been aware of this two times (although I was not involved in the PvP) in three years. So it's not that common. Or at least it's possible to play a character who participates in a lot of fun things on the server without seeing a lot of PvP and corpse hiding.

Also, I will say this. Players are not honest (surprise!).

A DM has told me that part of the reason they don't comment on specific issues publicly is they prefer to take the hit and be "the bad guys" rather than increase players fighting with one another. But unfortunately this also means players can be inaccurate either by mistake or willfully without much rebuttal.

If you were not personally involved in the PvP or the corpse hiding, don't take anyone else's description of it without a grain of salt.


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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2020, 11:03:47 AM »
First of all, yes, we will be making changes to mechanics surrounding PvP. We'll comment further on this later.

Secondly, when in doubt about your corpse, just ask a DM in-game to check. We won't reveal the location of your corpse but we'll be able to know if it was hidden illegally. We've handled such requests a few times in the past where there was indeed a rule break. If it's hidden in an illegal place, we'll move it somewhere it can actually be retrieved.

Thirdly, with DM oversight and okay, corpses can be hidden behind locked doors (ie: The Vault, Verzi hits). Once again, if in doubt that a DM really authorized something, don't hesitate to contact one of us.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2020, 11:23:25 AM »
I could write a whole essay on how PVP here and the mindset that surrounds it is not at ALL constructive and harms RP more than helps it, but I'll attempt to keep it brief.

1) Stealth is so insanely overpowered here. Stealth is one of the few skills where you can easily get it into the high 80s with relative ease. If I cared, my FIGHTER with ZERO ranks in sneaking could hit a 40 stealth with just gear alone. It's insanity. No other skills have THAT MUCH gear that is THAT EASY to get. You can literally take every slot of gear on your character and drop in a +4/+5 stealth item. Then the "visibility" system just further helps stealthers. This encourages the gank PVP that we see so often. I know the server is not balanced around PVP but this one is...really bad. Really, really, bad.

2) The corpse system is a GREAT idea in theory. In practice? With the corpse hiding? It gives players (as stated before) the ability to perma characters. Players can TAKE AWAY your ability to raise through the mists, I think that was a mistake. If someone wants to ensure someone is dead and stays dead, all they  have to do is rotate a corpse's location every few days or once a week. The server is MASSIVE. There have been characters who had 20+ people looking for them FOR MONTHS and the body was still not found. The player just gave up on every playing that character again and was robbed of that fun that they could have had. Maybe get rid of players being able to get rid of mist-raising. Or add in an option where if a corpse has been hidden for 3 months, players can go to the vistani or something and sacrifice a lot of gold or the person to be raised can sacrifice EXP at the pillar of light in order to get a HINT of where their body is.

3) The fact that people can effectively perma other characters breeds paranoia. Which encourages people to be as ganky as possible in PVP as they can. I've seen people stand on the EDGE of rendering distance, take a shot with a flintlock, run away hasted, go back, take another shot, later, rinse, repeat until the person they were after is dead. How is that fun for the person getting roflstomped by an exploit that can't be proven short of a screen recorder? I've seen people literally record their PVP settings (Hell, I still got links). Why is "hey, I better boot up my screen recorder for my gank" even a thought that should occur to someone?

4) AFK ganking. People will just follow targets around, wait for them to AFK, then move in for their gank. I know with how the server is set up, you can't really have an AFK mechanical form of protection or let people access the AFK hall from anywhere. You also can't have a system in place where people can just run to the DMs every time theyre mad at the result of a PVP and say they were AFK, either. THere's no perfect solution here, but with the rules as they are, it encourages people to follow others around and wait until they're AFK to go for their gank...Or to leave their character hidden and AFK overnight and just read whatever they overheard while the player slept. It's like Raid: Shadow Legends! It plays itself! lol. Guys, it you have to go AFK, just log out.

God, I could go on and on, but I don't want to talk your ears off! Glad to hear changes are coming!

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2020, 11:48:08 AM »
I could write a whole essay on how PVP here and the mindset that surrounds it is not at ALL constructive and harms RP more than helps it, but I'll attempt to keep it brief.

1) Stealth is so insanely overpowered here. Stealth is one of the few skills where you can easily get it into the high 80s with relative ease. If I cared, my FIGHTER with ZERO ranks in sneaking could hit a 40 stealth with just gear alone. It's insanity. No other skills have THAT MUCH gear that is THAT EASY to get. You can literally take every slot of gear on your character and drop in a +4/+5 stealth item. Then the "visibility" system just further helps stealthers. This encourages the gank PVP that we see so often. I know the server is not balanced around PVP but this one is...really bad. Really, really, bad.

2) The corpse system is a GREAT idea in theory. In practice? With the corpse hiding? It gives players (as stated before) the ability to perma characters. Players can TAKE AWAY your ability to raise through the mists, I think that was a mistake. If someone wants to ensure someone is dead and stays dead, all they  have to do is rotate a corpse's location every few days or once a week. The server is MASSIVE. There have been characters who had 20+ people looking for them FOR MONTHS and the body was still not found. The player just gave up on every playing that character again and was robbed of that fun that they could have had. Maybe get rid of players being able to get rid of mist-raising. Or add in an option where if a corpse has been hidden for 3 months, players can go to the vistani or something and sacrifice a lot of gold or the person to be raised can sacrifice EXP at the pillar of light in order to get a HINT of where their body is.

3) The fact that people can effectively perma other characters breeds paranoia. Which encourages people to be as ganky as possible in PVP as they can. I've seen people stand on the EDGE of rendering distance, take a shot with a flintlock, run away hasted, go back, take another shot, later, rinse, repeat until the person they were after is dead. How is that fun for the person getting roflstomped by an exploit that can't be proven short of a screen recorder? I've seen people literally record their PVP settings (Hell, I still got links). Why is "hey, I better boot up my screen recorder for my gank" even a thought that should occur to someone?

4) AFK ganking. People will just follow targets around, wait for them to AFK, then move in for their gank. I know with how the server is set up, you can't really have an AFK mechanical form of protection or let people access the AFK hall from anywhere. You also can't have a system in place where people can just run to the DMs every time theyre mad at the result of a PVP and say they were AFK, either. THere's no perfect solution here, but with the rules as they are, it encourages people to follow others around and wait until they're AFK to go for their gank...Or to leave their character hidden and AFK overnight and just read whatever they overheard while the player slept. It's like Raid: Shadow Legends! It plays itself! lol. Guys, it you have to go AFK, just log out.

God, I could go on and on, but I don't want to talk your ears off! Glad to hear changes are coming!

1. You can easily get stealth to 80's through a massive skill, feat and money investment, like with every other skill. Besides, detection skills can be leveled just as easily, especially Listen.

2. I also heard of cases where corpses have been found in the spawns of a few hours.

3. Paranoia is part of the setting, and like we have said before, you need a legitimate reason to engage in PVP and corpsehide someone. You can't just go on a murder spree.

4. AFK ganking is against the rules and should be reported immediately.