Learning Luktar and Balok...

[JironGhrad]

heh, it must be... that's how we always played, and it made so much sense I never bothered to look it up... after all, a human with 10 int can only learn his common, why should a similar elf be any different?

[Ravenous]

Since common is common
And well in the FR setting book(at least) all characters learn Common(or Undercommon in the Underdark) and their regional/racial language. So nearly all characters begin with at least two languages + int mod additional languages.. I have a nagging suspicion that demi-humans might begin with up to three languages even with only 10 Int, though this is only a suspicion

[EO]

Half-elves speak elven and common. Half-orcs speak common and orc.

[Nefensis]

Once again id like to poke at the word background. Kukri when she arrived in barovia did not spoke elven even tho it was a free language, she was just not raised in a place where she learned it. Altho when the roleplay came along, i eventually gave her the elven language.

Same for Aina who does not speak common as her 8intel AND background reasons.

[Aran]

real life stories:

for someone somewhat fluently in languages 3 month in a country making an effort makes you understand the language.

I am danish, nobody speaks danish apart from us, so we tend to learn a bit of foreighn languages.
1 week in france and i could begin to understand a bit, 2 weeks and i could speak a bit.

It is actually unrealistic not being able to understand more and more of a language used in a place you reside permanently.

Aran

[Rex]

real life stories:

for someone somewhat fluently in languages 3 month in a country making an effort makes you understand the language.

I am danish, nobody speaks danish apart from us, so we tend to learn a bit of foreighn languages.
1 week in france and i could begin to understand a bit, 2 weeks and i could speak a bit.

It is actually unrealistic not being able to understand more and more of a language used in a place you reside permanently.

Aran

All that really shows though is that you are a reasonably intelligent individual with more then a bit of willpower.  I got drug all over the world in my youth and when I had the opportunity, picked up enough of whatever language I needed to get along with.  But that's not fluency, it's functionality.

Unfortunently, out of the German, French, Greek, Russian, Polish, and Danish that stuck with me, all I can basically recall Now, after being rooted here for a decade or so, and not immeresed in anything but English, redneck, ebonics, and chicano/spanglish, is a few of the swear words.  Though if I toss on the german news on satellite I can follow along with a bit of effort.

I blame the Babylonians for the problem personally.  Them and their damn tower!

~Rex 

[Iconoclast]

Something to consider though Aran, is that the natives don't want to be talking with most outlanders.  Most outlanders reside at the outskirts.  They are not immersed in the local culture.  They are kept at the margins.  While picking up a few phrases is likely, it is not common for outlanders to learn to speak Balok or Luktar fluently enough to be used as an asset.

[Aran]

you dont really need to be part of conversations

just sitting at an in or at a market where people trade will let you pick up most common phrases.

knowing those you start to understand more and more.

they might not want to talk to us, but they cant prevent the outlanders listening in.

then what of the mage with say 16 in intelligence.

he should then just by listening in a few days used this way, have a basic understanding of the language just by analysing  what is being spoken where.

this is the truth of real life ;-)

But that said, as soo many other things are different in ravenloft the local language could be magical in some way  just as non magically giftet cannot read scrolls ;-)



Aran

[Ravenous]

13th Warrior with Antonio Banderas... And Sven Volter(swede)...
I kinda liked the way he picked up the language after sitting around listening at what they said around the campfire.. Probably took a few weeks/months that they speeded up though..
But then again Banderasīs character was some kind of scholar with alot of brainpower..

[Iconoclast]

Actually, in real life, people don't become fluent in a language by listening in on conversations.  A child of average intelligence at age four would learn a second language with much greater success than an adult mage with an intelligence of 18.  

However, some languages are sister languages, so to speak.  There may be cognates (sematics) or they may share syntaxical structure, making some languages easier to learn than others in some cases.  If someone is then immersed in the culture, and they pay close attention to how the language is being used in practical context, then they have an easier time learning some of the basics.  I'd have a much easier time, being a native English speaker, learning German, as opposed to Manderin.  Then, when you factor in how many dialects can exist within one language, its pretty wild.  

If an outlander's native language has a lot in common with Luktar and Balok, then they'd have an easier go at learning some of the basic conversational word patterns.  Since the local culture has been isolated for some time, the chances of an outlander's native language having much in common with Balok and Luktar, are slim.  

In any event, if anyone has a strong enough desire to study up on the subject of language aquisition or learning, I can refer them to the research and studies.  I'm not offended if someone doesn't take my word for it.  You can study it for yourself.  

Sadek, its funny that you brought up the 13th Warrior movie.  In my language studies, we've often referred to that movie.  There is nothing realistic in that.  It's fantasy all the way. 



  

[Ravenous]

Sadek, its funny that you brought up the 13th Warrior  movie.  In my language studies, we've often referred to that movie.  There is nothing realistic in that.  It's fantasy all the way.

Hehe, yeah I know .. It was just made in an interesting way..

But 18 in Int is alot! Itīs genius level intelligence, or at the very least very close to it.. But yeah, itīs no easy feat to pick up a language. And children have an easy time.. If only my parents were multi-langual and spoke 5 languages when I was a kid..

[Adorah]

Iconoclast,

You make a lot of very valid points but... and I have to make this clear, if you are dropped into anothers person's culture,
You learn the language, or you die.. typically.  I have seen many accounts of this, and not in movies, but in slavery. Do you
think people take the time to teach their slaves to communicate past a bull whip and a bark? No way... but many if not most of
these slaves pick up the language, they MUST.. it is direly important... this is documented in many places, and references to
learning languages when totally immesed in a culture does happen.

The examples I find people using may be a little misleading... Yes Eraldurs dad may have been Strong Spanish for years and speaking
broken french, but... and I may be entirely wrong here... i doubt he was an island in a sea of french.  He undoubtably spoke
on the phone with his family, and took refuge in his own language a lot of the time, perhaps with Spanish friends. He likely spoke
Spanish at home... typical of many people moving to a new country, they take refuge in their own culture, their own languages.

The example of 13th Warrior is a Fallacy, listening and learning a language over such a short time period, I call BS on right away,
but the reference I use as per the slaves, they had great incentive to learn their captors languages, they HAD no one to take
refuge in, as slaves were often alone on farms or ranches, and they would likely practice and practice HARD to learn it, even if
they hated the language.

If I was dropped in Quebec, and heaven forbid I had to learn French in its entirety, without English people to help me out, I would
learn the language... what matters is several things; your personal intelligence, your drive to learn the language, and your use of the
language..

Even Parrots can learn words in languages, mimicing the words and gaining understand from things like... I am Hungry, or I love you...
If a Parrot can pick up the words, I have no doubt that an above average intelligent human can at least pick up some words too.

Cheers...

[shadymerchant]

I have never looked into the subject, but I would imagine that you greatly overestimate the amount of foreign language a first generation slave can pick up in a foreign environment. It is true that they would pick up some amount, as learning phrases like "fill the bucket" and "clean the oven" isn't that difficult when it is repeated to you five times (with gestures) and each subsequent failure to understand is met with punishment. I imagine many slaves in such an environment would turn to longer standing slaves to get a little help.

I'd imagine it would be somewhat like going to a foreign country with a book of phrases in the native language. When you wish it, you can open up the book and find the phrase matching your desired action. Look at the same ones enough and you'll get it down. Throw the book away however and you won't be learning new ones from that point on. A slave, do to their situation, has great incentive to memorize the wording given to them.

I'd be interested in any cases of such quick learning though.  In any case, Barovia is not "sink or swim" slavery.

[Iconoclast]

The language tool, as previously said, will accomodate for those outlanders who may come to learn Luktar or Balok, when supported by role playing.  Nothing is stopping a character from learning very basic words such as 'hello,' 'goodbye,' 'yes, 'no,' and so on.  

If Outlanders were immersed in the culture, the natives wouldn't call them 'outlanders.'  


Its far too subjective, to allow a player to decide on thier own when or if their character has learned Balok or Luktar.  The awarding of a language tool, will ensure that the player has the role playing to support their character's learning of Balok or Luktar.  Basically, those outlanders who become part of a native-based faction, I imagine will have a greater chance of learning the language.

Luktar and Balok are invaluable resources.  For example, the outlander who becomes involed with the Gundarakite, who spends plenty of time in their company, would likely be able to learn luktar after a while.  That would be one of the benefits.  Now if you allow any player to decide their character knows Luktar, after two weeks, without being immersed among the Gundarakite, that would stink of rotten cheese.   That is another reason as to why a language tool is needed.  

Edit:  Well put Shady.






    

[Heretic]

The examples I find people using may be a little misleading... Yes Eraldurs dad may have been Strong Spanish for years and speaking
broken french, but... and I may be entirely wrong here...

You are entirely wrong.

Anyways, re-read my post with the Chinese example vs Vallaki merchants, I visit China town often, like as often as some of you spend in the city of Vallaki with your characters, you don't see me speak chineese nor getting a single word of what the hells they say, and yet, these chinese folks are far more friendlier than your typical Barovian would be.


Moral: "Me rub you lon' time, suky fuky?''

[Adorah]

Then I apologize.. I put it in Bold just in case...

Sorry Eraldur..

But your example with the Chinese stuff? That is silly..

Recognizing symbols does not equate to understanding speaking the language... your right...

However as diverse as languages are their roots are often similar in vein, specifically Latin based languages, I am more inclined to believe humans could pick up Balok quicker then an elf...

Second to that, "visiting" Chinatown isn't living for a long period of time in China... you still go home, people in these towns usually speak the language of the day in order to get you to buy something... Hardly equivalent.. Outlanders are stuck in a world designed for an entirely different set of people, they adapt, or they die out.. yet every damned person I see speaks common? Why does THAT happen? Well it sort of has to... without a common language that every outlander could understand what fun would the game be?

I do know that symbol you posted up you might not know the Chinese word for... but that isn't that point I'm making, it is likely you pass the symbol enough to gain the inferences of it... Oh look a symbol that looks like a t and a j mixed up... I will go in and see what it is... oh a carpentry place... it might mean wood or craft... and you go from there.. And you may be able to reproduce it... this 5 minute thing practiced half a dozen times or so, could stay in your memory forever, or even after a year of studying, you may never get the curve just right on the letter... some people are natural linguists, some are not, but there should be something, and I agree with Iconoclast, to regulate it...

Again sorry Eraldur.

[Heretic]

Second to that, "visiting" Chinatown isn't living for a long period of time in China... you still go home, people in these towns usually speak the language of the day in order to get you to buy something... Hardly equivalent.. Outlanders are stuck in a world designed for an entirely different set of people, they adapt, or they die out.. yet every damned person I see speaks common? Why does THAT happen? Well it sort of has to... without a common language that every outlander could understand what fun would the game be?

Well, like I said. The Outlanders you refer to, are gathered around the Ladies Rest where they all speak "Common" tongue; and they -do- visit the city as often as I visit China Town, part of the reason I would not buy someone learning so quickly is because of the lack of interaction and actual immersion on the behalf of outlanders vs the setting due to them not being forced to adapt or/and die out. An Outlander can perfectly survive without visiting Vallaki, nor depending on its economy. The immersion is already quasi-unexistant, now, if it was present, I seriously question the quality of the immersion you'd have, really. Would be like sliding a Kenyan in the middle of a KKK sect and have him try to 'Interact' with them.

[EO]

Most outlanders, about all outlanders rather, live in the Lady's Rest or on the fringes of town with..more outlanders. Most outlanders visit Vallaki to shop or drop for an ale with..more outlanders with whom they speak. It is very similar to the Chinatown example. They don't live in Barovian homes or drink with Barovians, they don't play chess with Barovians, they hang out with other outlanders who speak common.

For the record:

Balok-Romanian (direct translation)
Luktar-Hungarian (direct translation)
Common/Low Mordentish-English
High Mordentish: French

There are plenty of other languages, but common, luktar and balok are what you will likely see. For those who might be wondering, Romanian is an indo-european language (that means, in the same big family as English, French, Italian, German, etc)and more specifically it is in the same family as French, Italian and all; languages directly influenced by Latin. Hungarian, on the other hand, is a totally different language type more akin to Russian and as such not at all based on latin (or perhaps lightly) and it's not an indo-european language. That means that one would likely have an easier time learning Balok than Luktar as the roots are closer for Balok.

[Rex]

Sadek, its funny that you brought up the 13th Warrior  movie.  In my language studies, we've often referred to that movie.  There is nothing realistic in that.  It's fantasy all the way.

Hehe, yeah I know .. It was just made in an interesting way..

But 18 in Int is alot! Itīs genius level intelligence, or at the very least very close to it.. But yeah, itīs no easy feat to pick up a language. And children have an easy time.. If only my parents were multi-langual and spoke 5 languages when I was a kid..

Roughly put, INT is one of the easier stats to translate.  Tack a zero on the end of the stat and that is the IQ of the individual.  Gives you a good ballpark to bat around in.  18 Int is a 180 IQ.  14 puts you right at the beginning of the Genius level.

You should see the scales for STR.  You would never turn your nose up at a 12 again.   

Besides, Languages, are a SKILL, and in PnP, you can buy more skills with your skill points as you level, learning more languages then the bonuses provided by your INT score.  Now, NwN basic engine does not let you do that, but Many of the servers that run on 3.5 skill base, have the extra skills missing from the NwN basic set up and you can simply toss skill points in the needed area when required through leveling/experience.  Many of the Player Resource Consortium set ups also have such, so you can buy Jump, Climb, Swim, Language, etc etc etc ......

A good compromise, is using an existing skill like Lore.  Everyone can buy it.  Last place I saw that did that it was Lore/4=language max.


~Rex 

[Nefensis]

I would go ahead and agree that UNLESS someone specificly rped learning the language, showed and taught by a PC or NPC with the natural knowledge of the language.. cant learn it.

Exemple.. Logan has been hanging around Aina quite a bite and since her language is close enough to elven/his high intelligence score/ her showing him what word means, AKA basicly teaching him, He is one of the only char out there that can say victoriously that he understand her.. for the most part.
All the others with either elven as their race and a high WIS/high LORE i give out hints to what she is saying and NO, even a roll of 25wis dosnt make you magicaly understand  what she;s saying

Einstein didnt wake up one morning understanding chinesse.

[Bluebomber4evr]

as a side note: "low" mordentish is NOT common, nor is it modern english. It is old english.

[Crule]

There are plenty of other languages, but common, luktar and balok are what you will likely see. For those who might be wondering, Romanian is an indo-european language (that means, in the same big family as English, French, Italian, German, etc)and more specifically it is in the same family as French, Italian and all; languages directly influenced by Latin. Hungarian, on the other hand, is a totally different language type more akin to Russian and as such not at all based on latin (or perhaps lightly) and it's not an indo-european language. That means that one would likely have an easier time learning Balok than Luktar as the roots are closer for Balok.

It's called a "romance language" ... and yes, Latin was the parent language to French, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, Romansch (a swiss language), and Romanian.   However, Romanian also has a lot of Slavic influence on it.     German, however, is not a romance language.  It is a "germanic" language.   English is more related to German than it is to French or Spanish.

[Nefensis]

Canis magister est..

Man 5 years of latin in high school.. i loved it.

[Rex]

Eric would learn.  Provided someone wanted to try and teach the uncouth beer swilling mountain man a proper language.

That could actually be an interesting "hook" for someone.

~Rex 

[Orchson]

It's possible to learn a foreign language, provided you wish to do so.

First, myself as an example.

I speak English more or less fluently. Have some problems with grammar, but all and all, I speak it good enough. Prior to learning English in school (as a part of the standard Swedish educational system) I spoke English as well. I picked up on English through sky channel alone. Well, that, and asking my mom what some of the words ment. In a year (not kidding) I learned to speak English well enough to work as a guide to German tourists visiting Sweden. At this point, I was 9 years old. In 1 year, between ages 8 and 9, I learned english good enough to guide tourists.

For a child, learning a language is a piece of cake.

However, I do oppose any notion about it being impossible for a grown man to do so. The dude who has the pizza place down the road from where I live came to Sweden when he was 28. He's lived here for 4 years now. Only 4. And he speaks Swedish very well. However, he too had education.

Without education, I'm very hesitant to accept people learning new languages. Especially in a setting such as Ravenloft, where chances are none would sit down with you for several hours each day and teach you. It's true as someone said before - you don't just pick up on a language. Or, rather... You need to have something to refer to. A language means nothing if you don't have 2 things - first off, someone to help you translate the words. The grammar is likley to come natural if you're constantly exposed to a new language (hence why people go on language trips for 6 months and come back speaking the other language quite well). And second, you need a rather large base of words in order to start somewhere.

Learning some words is acceptable. Yes or no is typichal. As well as hello, goodbye, etc etc. When you hit then 200 word marker, you have a good chance of putting new words into context, and understanding what they mean.

Also, I remember playing on a server where elven was scripted. I also remember that after a year, I could hold a conversation with a person using the script, without using a script myself. So I am hesitant to agree that it's impossible to learn a new language. If I can do it by reading elven 4 hours a day playing a game, then someone who lives in the world 24 hours a day would stand a good chance of doing so too.

How this should be done is another question. A script would be nice, and preferably one that isn't anywhere on the internet. That way, if people learn In Game, then they learn In Game. You can't claim someone to be metagaming or god modding the knowledge of a language if the person playing is actually learning it for real.