Learning Luktar and Balok...

[Jeebs]

I like to think that our playerbase is responsible enough not to abuse things.  I have no issues with someone RPing knowing a few basic things in another language, I have in the past myself and you can have fun with that sort of thing.  Maybe the Barovian who taught you how to say these few things hates Outlanders and told you something offensive instead of the actual thing you think you're saying.  I don't know.  I found language tools neat, but I rather like being able to read what other people are saying... some of our players are rather amusing at times and I'd hate to miss out on that.

Thanks to Sofiya the only Phrase grevis knows in Balok is "I'll gut you outlander"

Of course she told him it meant "You are quite handsome."

See this is exactly what I'm talking about, there's cheesing, and then there's creative and amusing use of it within reasonable limits such as this.

[Bluebomber4evr]

It took Eliza a good fifteen years to learn both Luktar and Balok

Quite a feat when you consider only 6 years have passed in-game

She's local  Silly Blue!

Anyway, in regards to the language tool thing, I'd still personally like to see it, but Soren really dislikes the idea. He feels it creates an elitist atmosphere. I'm not sure it would, but I respect his decision anyway.

[Mark Johansen]

it's okay about the langauge tool, i just think we need some offical ruleing on languages and how we take it on.

is the trade tounge and native language of the char free and we can then select another for each int modifyer?

something in that line, just so we all are on the same page.

[Bluebomber4evr]

it's okay about the langauge tool, i just think we need some offical ruleing on languages and how we take it on.

is the trade tounge and native language of the char free and we can then select another for each int modifyer?

something in that line, just so we all are on the same page.

Hmm, well I'll bring it up at the next developer's meeting since we'll have to make a rule for it.

[Purist]

No rules, bring the tools! It's not elitist.

[Eagle882]

No rules, bring the tools! It's not elitist.

I would be inclined to agree, it's just the way things work.  If one doesn't know what another is saying, then they should not have the slightest clue as to what is being said, aside from body language and tone.

[Aduial]

No rules, bring the tools! It's not elitist.

I would be inclined to agree, it's just the way things work.  If one doesn't know what another is saying, then they should not have the slightest clue as to what is being said, aside from body language and tone.

+1

[Jeebs]

is the trade tounge and native language of the char free and we can then select another for each int modifyer?

something in that line, just so we all are on the same page.

I had asked this question of a DM in the past (I forget which one now though) and that was the answer I was given yes.

[Thoraion]

You may want to think about the disadvantages of a language tool.
It may have a few advantages, but considering a long list of disadvantages that i can think of, the simple tagging that is used today looks by far better to me.

About a learning roll: DC 30 after 6 months? And -1 for each months exceeding 6? ... Time to get me a dm for that roll for my characters!

[Jay]

You may want to think about the disadvantages of a language tool.
It may have a few advantages, but considering a long list of disadvantages that i can think of, the simple tagging that is used today looks by far better to me.

About a learning roll: DC 30 after 6 months? And -1 for each months exceeding 6? ... Time to get me a dm for that roll for my characters!

I'm not sure if that's right, it's been a while sinc ei found that referance in the books, but it's something like that.
you'd also probably sound like a 4yr old trying to speak the language as is it only a *Basic* understanding.

[Talek]

On a side note, when people are speaking forign languages, its good they put (B) or [L] as prefix... some spell out Balok, Luktar.. some even spell out what they sound like. This is great at first, but it doesnt need to be repeated every sentence when the people in the area do not change... Even if you just say [Speaking in Luktar] and then type away, saves you some time

[Sharauvyn]

I like the way languages work right now, because it allows people to make jokes or enhance the mood of an exchange for the players of characters who don't speak a language. The one Jay  mentioned earlier about Grevis and the "You look handsome," phrase is great. I've seen people use the fact that a player knows what their character doesn't to great effect, for amusement, humor, dread, and a wide variety of effects that couldn't be done if they player didn't know what the other said. Not to mention the fact I think it creates a more trusting atmosphere for people to have to remind themselves not to metagame.  It's good practice, too.  Seeing a garda say something in Balok, for instance, and then resist the urge to jump into the conversation at a time that it doesn't matter sets the right tone for not metagaming when it does matter.

That's what I think.

[Jay]

Ah here it is!!

Though i remind everyone that this is for a reference not an official ruling:

From the Ravenloft DMG page 25:

Using Bonus Languages
Characters from culturally isolated lands (be they Islands of Terror or simply remote villages) may begin the game  fluent in only their native domain language, regardless of their intelligence score. If a character leaves her bonus language "slots" empty, she can later fill those slots through total cultural immersion, allowing her to learn languages without having to expend skill points. [...] Once a character decided to learn a language, each month she spends immersed in a foreign culture entitles her to an intelligence check (DC 25) to learn that cultures language. Each additional month spends studying the local tongue (which she can do while engaged in other activities) grants her a cumulative +1 competence bonus on the intelligence check. (Thus after six months of immersion the check drops to 20) Of course, this process is very times consuming [...]

[Thoraion]

On a side note, when people are speaking forign languages, its good they put (B) or [L] as prefix... some spell out Balok, Luktar.. some even spell out what they sound like. This is great at first, but it doesnt need to be repeated every sentence when the people in the area do not change... Even if you just say [Speaking in Luktar] and then type away, saves you some time

I prefer the tagging of every text.
Reason? Not everybody who "hears" the dialogue is there from the beginning and just walks up later - and how would that one notice that he would not understand a word?
And... you really can never know who's listeing or if someone else may hear you

I'm not sure if that's right, it's been a while sinc ei found that referance in the books, but it's something like that.
you'd also probably sound like a 4yr old trying to speak the language as is it only a *Basic* understanding.
[/quote]
Probably. It depends on the degree of immersion. But if this is limited to what you learn after 6 months, you are most likely right. As a more pragmatic approach, i would deduct the level of understanding from the roll and by how far it exceeds the result required for basic understanding.
Example:
Basic DC is 25, reduced by 18 after a total of 24 months of immersion. So the modified DC is 7.
The roll is 18, exceeding the DC by 11. This indicates much more than a basic understanding, but it would surely not suffice for passing as a local or a scholarly dispute (let's assume that something like a barovian scholar exists  )

Well... this is at least how knowledge rolls work... and since i am not sure about learning languages, this is just a suggestion.

[Jay]

Well... this is at least how knowledge rolls work... and since i am not sure about learning languages, this is just a suggestion.

Corrected myself in the post above yours. That is how it works in table top.

Ah here it is!!

Though i remind everyone that this is for a reference not an official ruling:

From the Ravenloft DMG page 25:

Using Bonus Languages
Characters from culturally isolated lands (be they Islands of Terror or simply remote villages) may begin the game  fluent in only their native domain language, regardless of their intelligence score. If a character leaves her bonus language "slots" empty, she can later fill those slots through total cultural immersion, allowing her to learn languages without having to expend skill points. [...] Once a character decided to learn a language, each month she spends immersed in a foreign culture entitles her to an intelligence check (DC 25) to learn that cultures language. Each additional month spends studying the local tongue (which she can do while engaged in other activities) grants her a cumulative +1 competence bonus on the intelligence check. (Thus after six months of immersion the check drops to 20) Of course, this process is very times consuming [...]

[Purist]

But this is Barovia.

[Jay]

But this is Barovia.

But seriously, context please?

[Purist]

Context? I wonder how one may learn a language in a xenophobic place at the same rate one would learn in any other non-xeno~ country. Maybe the rules should be adjusted to the reality of the setting?

I had one or two guards in my stay here. Always hated ICly how outlanders approuched me speaking balok.

[Jay]

true, but Barovians will continue to speak Balok around you *if* you can find a teacher it will certainly speed it up. But contextual clues and other common phrases will eventually be learnt by somebody with a high enough Int.

I'm not saying it should be *easy* but i am saying it's hard to be surrounded by a culture and not *evertally* pick up the lingo.

[Lilianne]

I think it's worth pointing out that Balok is one of the most widely spoken languages in the western Core and is the main language in Borca, which is a civilized and politically powerful country. I'm just pointing this out because people seem to get annoyed OOC by native non-Barovians speaking Balok when in fact it is a very common language.

[Purist]

Maybe the OOC concern comes from the fact that people, probably, didn't learn it anywhere else other than Barovia.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Maybe the OOC concern comes from the fact that people, probably, didn't learn it anywhere else other than Barovia.

Cue MST3K Mantra.

While it's generally true that Barovians are a xenophobic lot, that doesn't mean that all Barovians universally possess the same amount of xenophobia. Also, there's plenty of people willing to overlook their own prejudices if the price is right.

[Thoraion]

Well... this is at least how knowledge rolls work... and since i am not sure about learning languages, this is just a suggestion.

Corrected myself in the post above yours. That is how it works in table top.

That was the post my own post was based on. But what i suggested was determining the degree of mastership of the language in addition to that. Like (don't nail me to the values...):
- roll equals the DC or exceeds it by 4: Basic understanding of the language
- roll exceeds the DC by 5 to 9: Fluent, but with a heavy accent and several gaps in the vocabulary, ocassional grammar lapses (so like my english  )
- roll exceeds the DC by 10 to 14: Perfect, but with an accent
- roll exceeds DC by 15 or more: hard to identify as a non-native speaker

[Valiant_Destiny]

Seems it should be fine to speak basic phrases like, Hello, goodbye, Night, Day, yes, no. 

That's about all my character says in Balok, just to be polite to those whose country he's in.  But I do see the problem with someone outright putting a {B} or [Balok] in front of a full sentence or conversation, and is not Barovian or has not had some kind of formal teaching and an average Int. 

And isn't it One extra language for each intelligence bonus.  So a level 12 intelligence with a +1 bonus could really only speak Two languages.   Unless there was some factor from maybe your place of birth that would allow more.  For instance Vanquist speaks Low Mordentish and High Mordentish, with average intelligence.  I did this because it says that most farmers or underclassed peasants that even entered the upper class areas, spoke at least some High Mordentish.  I may be wrong in this, DM tells me otherwise or someone has an issue with it, id be willing to discuss.  But I don't see someone just outright fluently speaking another language that was not raised around it, and doesn't have the intelligence bonuses to add Balok as a fourth or whatever.

[dutchy]

when you keep getting confronted with stuff like buna and da and nu and salut and ziua and noapte     then yes you would know the meaning  of those words and probably how to prenounce them     but the full deal wouldnt be possible without the int score and lessons behind it.


so thats a yes on a few words and a no on the total langauge.

..basicly +1  viliant destiny