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Author Topic: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say  (Read 16472 times)

Janarah

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2020, 08:49:27 AM »
I would love to see the Grimeshka cave reviewed, DC 21 chest, 2 lootable spots...no real lore behind the cave, yet they have huts that aren't used and don't really make sense for them? Perhaps something similar? Goblins?

That's certainly not max spawn then with that low of a dc lock. There are three lootable spots, on top of the gremishka's and their archers. I believe the area is meant for level 2, and should be, meaning you can use a shirt of chains and be relatively ok. However, I have seen the lock on the chest reach up to 34 on the action server (since hardly anyone is around), the loot is usually restricted to low level druid scrolls and little else however, and a small amount of coin. I wouldn't mind seeing the huts available like in the kobold cave, or maybe a second level added to try and get new players use to dungeons, maybe some low dc secret doors?

I mean if it's a level 2 dungeon like it seems meant to be then the dc's for the locks and traps should range from what? dc 25 to 27? Same if anything was added to it, ie, secret doors.
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Destinysdesire

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #101 on: June 26, 2020, 08:56:39 AM »
My level 3 still gets XP from high spawn there, and it was a DC I think...29 or 30 lock on the chest which I could not open. So I believe the area is set for 2-3, but I would love to see the area expanded to a level area that can go through 4-5. Not many areas for that, that isn't  drastically overkill at medium spawn.

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2020, 09:05:40 PM »
I would love to see the Grimeshka cave reviewed, DC 21 chest, 2 lootable spots...no real lore behind the cave, yet they have huts that aren't used and don't really make sense for them? Perhaps something similar? Goblins?

That's certainly not max spawn then with that low of a dc lock. There are three lootable spots, on top of the gremishka's and their archers. I believe the area is meant for level 2, and should be, meaning you can use a shirt of chains and be relatively ok. However, I have seen the lock on the chest reach up to 34 on the action server (since hardly anyone is around), the loot is usually restricted to low level druid scrolls and little else however, and a small amount of coin. I wouldn't mind seeing the huts available like in the kobold cave, or maybe a second level added to try and get new players use to dungeons, maybe some low dc secret doors?

I mean if it's a level 2 dungeon like it seems meant to be then the dc's for the locks and traps should range from what? dc 25 to 27? Same if anything was added to it, ie, secret doors.

I'll tone down the lock and bash DCs for the Gremishka and Kobold caves to be more manageable for low levels. These dungeons are aimed at very low levels and we've been trying to rebalance them in that direction.

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #103 on: June 29, 2020, 10:57:47 AM »
I wouldn't mind seeing a third and final level being added to the fire beetle caves. A third level that is maybe aimed at characters around level 4, with tougher beetles (that give more xp) and more rewards.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 11:07:45 AM by tylernwn »

Janarah

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #104 on: June 30, 2020, 12:29:55 PM »
I would love to see the Grimeshka cave reviewed, DC 21 chest, 2 lootable spots...no real lore behind the cave, yet they have huts that aren't used and don't really make sense for them? Perhaps something similar? Goblins?

That's certainly not max spawn then with that low of a dc lock. There are three lootable spots, on top of the gremishka's and their archers. I believe the area is meant for level 2, and should be, meaning you can use a shirt of chains and be relatively ok. However, I have seen the lock on the chest reach up to 34 on the action server (since hardly anyone is around), the loot is usually restricted to low level druid scrolls and little else however, and a small amount of coin. I wouldn't mind seeing the huts available like in the kobold cave, or maybe a second level added to try and get new players use to dungeons, maybe some low dc secret doors?

I mean if it's a level 2 dungeon like it seems meant to be then the dc's for the locks and traps should range from what? dc 25 to 27? Same if anything was added to it, ie, secret doors.

I'll tone down the lock and bash DCs for the Gremishka and Kobold caves to be more manageable for low levels. These dungeons are aimed at very low levels and we've been trying to rebalance them in that direction.

I tested the chain, treant, and bone shirt. I was wrong about damage type, they seem to be doing untyped dmg, so none of the shirts will help you in the cave unless the archers still spawn on occasion. Haven't seen any on the max spawn on action, so uncertain if they can still spawn.
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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #105 on: June 30, 2020, 12:31:57 PM »
The only thing that helps in that cave...is a very rare drop from higher areas called Robes of the Old Order. Because they absorb damage...thats it.

Janarah

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #106 on: July 08, 2020, 01:05:47 PM »
Things noted on action with mostly max spawns:

The wolf cave near deganwy could use a loot pile or two, you know, maybe a dead elf or something.

The haunted monastery, south of deganwy, the traps could use some looking at, and the locks. It seems to be geared for level 8 and lower, but ran across dc's in the 40's yesterday. And some of the traps can do upwards of over 100 dmg on a failed ref for chars with no evasion. The loot there is still pretty nice, but i do miss the occasional rare leviathan longsword drop. Maybe some loot on the boss paladin ghost would be nice, geared towards paladins? (not really my cup of tea for a class, but all of them need love.)

Noticed that with a two lvl 2's and a level 5, half of the fire beetle cave gave absolutely no xp for over half of the mobs there to the level 2s. (level difference?)

The empty caves up near the silver seams around kroffburg could be turned into more variable caves with quests related to the kroffburg area and a bounty board for there.

The crypt under the ml church in the skirts seems to be geared for levels 2-8, but the dc's on the locks can often get into the high 30's low 40's. Maybe an adjustment is needed there?

The old gundrakite base west of the fishing lodge could be turned into a shadow fiend dungeon instead of remaining unused space.

The old abandoned faction area in the southern mountains on the way to kroffburg could be turned into some sort of dungeon (were bears?) to get rid of unused space.

Re-add the third floor to the crypt in barovia village and fill it with morghs and ghosts maybe? Or add an offshoot to the collapsed hall on the second floor? The morning lords must have had time to clear some of that out by now. . .

Do something with the locked door under the abandoned temple in the sewers. Maybe more wererats and such?

A nice slime dungeon somewhere would be nice, but not with the small ones, since they seem to some how do neg energy dmg and stat drains now. Maybe a tiered spawn of slime, orchas, and highest puddings?

Adjust the carrion crawler dungeon in ghastria, the tiny grave oozes sink into the floor, are super tiny, and you can't pick up their ooze once you finally manage to target and kill them.

Razorbacks look amazing, but only have 25 hp or less. For something that looks terrifying they are woefully underpowered compared to dire boars.

The sr on skeletal warriors seems to be higher than the sr on knights (though i am honestly uncertain why skeletons have sr).

Maddened corpses have at least +1 fists, this may be intentional. It puts a damper on low levels doing the crypt, as one of the buffs (ghostly) which would help them a good deal, becomes useless. This may be a cannon thing with maddens, but I am not sure where my book is to look it up at the moment.

The wasps/wasp tower. Their ac is 25 +, thier to hit is amazing, their poison is deadly. They are worthless for xp around levels 4-8 which is surprising since they are deadlier than the ants near vob. They might need a little love in the xp/cr dept.



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Kaninchen

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #107 on: July 08, 2020, 02:17:43 PM »
Depending on build choices, rogues can manage DCs at 40 around lvl 6-7. Especially if they pick up some lock picks to help, or get a knock/cat's/fox's to help, and a couple of other loot drops. Though I imagine this is much harder to do on the action server, as there are less people at any given time, so less chance of finding a decent trap book off of a merchant, or a warder.

I agree that Gilos could use a loot drop, considering how annoying that place would be to fight normally.

I asked about the locked gate in the sullen woods, as I never knew anyone to get through to it, and was told it was an old gundy base! That was a neat lore tidbit, but I agree it could be used for other things, since I was also told it hasn't been used in over a decade.

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #108 on: July 09, 2020, 11:10:19 PM »
Quote
The haunted monastery, south of deganwy, the traps could use some looking at, and the locks. It seems to be geared for level 8 and lower, but ran across dc's in the 40's yesterday. And some of the traps can do upwards of over 100 dmg on a failed ref for chars with no evasion. The loot there is still pretty nice, but i do miss the occasional rare leviathan longsword drop. Maybe some loot on the boss paladin ghost would be nice, geared towards paladins? (not really my cup of tea for a class, but all of them need love.)

Quote
The crypt under the ml church in the skirts seems to be geared for levels 2-8, but the dc's on the locks can often get into the high 30's low 40's. Maybe an adjustment is needed there?

Most locks are fine, I'll slightly tone down some of the locks by a few points.

I'll tone down some of the traps there, though no drops on the ghost.

Quote
The sr on skeletal warriors seems to be higher than the sr on knights (though i am honestly uncertain why skeletons have sr).

I'll fix all skeleton warriors/skeleton variants so they all have consistent properties; I'll tone down the SR on the knights.

Quote
Maddened corpses have at least +1 fists, this may be intentional. It puts a damper on low levels doing the crypt, as one of the buffs (ghostly) which would help them a good deal, becomes useless. This may be a cannon thing with maddens, but I am not sure where my book is to look it up at the moment.

That's canon in 3E.

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #109 on: September 11, 2022, 12:24:32 PM »
I realize this is a bit of thread necromancy, but it does seem like the right place for this post to go.

Last night, for the first time in a very long time (3 years?), I tried to run through the well catacombs that run under the Village of Barovia with a party of 4 adventurers.
The party makeup was characters of the following levels: 14, 13, 12, 8.  Everyone got KOed at least once, but mercifully no one got corpsed.

It was a brutal and taxing trek, and eventually the dungeon wore us down and won and we had to retreat, but it felt like a great overall challenge for the group we brought!

That said, there was little to be rewarded:
Loot-wise, I think the greatest treasures we found along the way were a couple of Rokuma Sheaves of Wheat and some Cure Moderate Wounds potions.  Those were 100% helpful and gave us a bit more staying power for sure, but it didn't really feel balanced for the dangers faced.  The rest of the loot looked like things you might find in the Vallaki Western Outskirts dungeons: gemstones worth 2-5gp each, level 1 spell scrolls, plain old pot helmets, etc.

Experience wise, the level 14 & 13 characters earned nothing.  The level 12 earned something miniscule, but the amounts barely registered with each rest.  The level 8 character may have done OK, but I'm not sure.  Again, for the danger faced, the resources spent, and the overall challenge presented, this felt a bit lacking.

If the intent/design here is to generally keep parties from traveling through, then reward levels I saw there and hear others speak of on occasion will ensure it stays that way and it is working as planned.

Otherwise, I'm advocating for a look-see to validate the rewards are on par with the actual dangers presented in that dungeon.  Please. ;)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 06:13:10 PM by MatticusCaesar »
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Voclain

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #110 on: September 11, 2022, 12:34:12 PM »
Last night, for the first time in a very long time (3 years?), I tried to run through the well catacombs that run under the Village of Barovia with a party of 4 adventurers.
The party makeup was 2 lvl 13s, a lvl 12, and a lvl 8.  Everyone got KOed at least once, but mercifully no one got corpsed.

For the longest time, that dungeon actually had some of the best loot on the server. I think it got nerfed as part of the action plan against ninjalooters (being that it was one of the most popular spots) and I haven't heard anyone speak well of it since.

I used to like running it with my groups around that level purely because of the loot, but people would rightfully complain that the dungeon is too much of a slog.

If there isn't even an appropriate loot reward at the end, it definitely needs a bit of an overhaul somewhere.
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DM Erebus

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #111 on: September 11, 2022, 12:40:43 PM »
The Well isn't somewhere I'm likely to touch.

It's a faithful recreation of a map from Strahd's Possession - and in the sense of the designer's original vision, its 'mission complete'. This is in contrast to my complete overhaul of the Ice Palace, in which the original vision was preserved, but the entire design was brought up-to-date with assets that weren't available when it was originally built. I don't think tinkering around the edges with creature balance will make much of a difference, and I don't want to overhaul it.

And, even if I had the will, I don't find it inspiring. An overhaul is a big job, and to an extent that time and effort could instead be directed at something new. I do revisit older content for balance reasons, but honestly I think The Well needs more than just a balance pass, and that would take it away from the designer's intention.


In terms of loot, The Well was a good loot spot for a very long time, and was looted often. Recently it was toned down, but still spits out good stuff.

The fact that you were turning up absolute junk on your run possibly indicates you caught it mid-loot, and all the good stuff was already gone - or someone was looting under you, or something like that. It wasn't toned down to absolute trash tier.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 12:43:30 PM by CosmicRay »

Voclain

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #112 on: September 11, 2022, 12:55:13 PM »
And, even if I had the will, I don't find it inspiring. An overhaul is a big job, and to an extent that time and effort could instead be directed at something new. I do revisit older content for balance reasons, but honestly I think The Well needs more than just a balance pass, and that would take it away from the designer's intention.

I'm definitely on board with you focusing on new dungeons. You're doing an admirable job toward balancing the server's numbers with content for everyone to enjoy.

I think the well could survive with some minor loot tweaks- the last few times I went after the nerfs, we still weren't getting that great of loot even on a full spawn. Whether that makes it too alluring for ninjalooters is another story.
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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #113 on: September 11, 2022, 03:38:26 PM »
The low level dungeons are the worst in the module. The Beetle Caves and Werewolf Cave are glaringly awful, I go out of my way to avoid doing them as much as I can. The Beetle cave is filled with this red miasma that's just uncomfortable to look at, it's pitch black in there, and the xp gain ends at level 3. The second half of the dungeon is near impossible for the intended level range to accomplish, if you have the misfortune of encountering the hive mother beetles. The ranged touch attacks of the stronger beetles have been known to badly impair characters and the xp gain is still awful. Only reason the dungeon is worth doing is for the low level alchemical reagents.

The Werewolf Cave is just a cave filled with werewolves with a pirate boat at the end. That's it. Doing it over and over again at level 6-7 gets really repetitive, so I end up joining parties for the alternative higher level dungeons around and manage just fine.

DM Erebus

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #114 on: September 11, 2022, 03:59:09 PM »
You're all banned for thread necromancy.

But you know what, I am in the middle of compiling a 'small things' update; so fire them at me. Small tweaks, minor balance problems, etc. No overhauls please.

So far on my list I got The Well and Beetle Cave.

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #115 on: September 11, 2022, 04:02:52 PM »
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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #116 on: September 11, 2022, 04:05:54 PM »
You're all banned for thread necromancy.

But you know what, I am in the middle of compiling a 'small things' update; so fire them at me. Small tweaks, minor balance problems, etc. No overhauls please.

So far on my list I got The Well and Beetle Cave.
If we're talking small tweaks, I think something in the VoB cemetery dungeon before the 'suddenly Cornugons' room to more clearly indicate that there's a massive spike in CR and danger of enemies upcoming wouldn't go amiss. It's very jarring to go from enemies that are fairly low level to enemies with fear auras, dispel magic, and much higher AB. Even something like some yellow text or lore placeables might help so groups running into that without OOC knowledge have more warning would be good.
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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #117 on: September 11, 2022, 04:08:02 PM »
I definitely think that the damage range on the hive mother beetles should be adjusted, or their ranged touch attack is removed. I understand that it is possible to negate the effects with a resist elements potion, but people don't always come down there properly equipped, either because they are brand new players or just looking for a dungeon to do for money/loot/xp. I think the enemies could also use a slight buff to xp, so that there is actual value to be had from visiting the dungeon more often, or maybe some small bounty items could be added to the dungeon for added xp gain and a small amount of gold. It would also give people more incentive to complete the final half of the dungeon, because 9 times out of 10, when I am visiting the cave on any pc, I only do the first half and then leave because the dungeon quickly becomes so redundant.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 04:13:33 PM by Death »

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #118 on: September 11, 2022, 04:12:26 PM »
Oh yeah. The Kobold and Gremishka caves are also equally awful. They're incredibly forgettable and they also equally become redundant as fast as the beetle cave does. The one saving grace of these dungeons is that they're short and sweet. But otherwise, xp gain is negligable and there's not really much reason to visit them when there are better and more open places to visit like the Gremishka House and the Sullen Forest.

I think alternative bounty spawns should be added to these dungeons that are on par with what one can find in the sewers. It would give more incentive for people to visit these dungeons and complete them.

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #119 on: September 11, 2022, 04:15:17 PM »
I agree that the beetle cave could use level standardization- bring it up in difficulty so you can more consistently get experience from levels 4-5. The loot could use a very teensy adjustment upwards as you usually bring back less of value than the burnt house for much greater effort. The drobita is nice to offset, but you usually use it all to stay alive in that dungeon.

Another dungeon I'd like to see touched up is the cave inbetween Invidians and the Bellegarde Mine. There you can usually find mobats, winter wolves, wereboars, and the likes (it's around the level 4 for difficulty). Typically, the distance you have to run to reach this dungeon is not worth the effort. Its problem is probably in just needing an overhaul for higher levels, but even a little loot adjustment would make the place all the more worthwhile to visit. Even having high-paying bounties spawn there would be useful. I think half the server doesn't even realize it exists..
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 04:19:27 PM by Voclain »
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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #120 on: September 11, 2022, 04:16:28 PM »
I can echo the statement that many of the low tier dungeons kinda suck.
Beetle Cave provides very little XP, very little loot, if you arent ready for RTA fire blasts you'll get killed (but only once reaching the last room)
werewolf cave is boring, flat, decent XP on a good spawn, poor loot, and isn't that dangerous aside from the ambush at the end
there's more but so many I just don't bother with because of how unattractive they are to do

i think a big problem with this is that a lot of old dungeons are, well, old.  they were designed by much more amateur developers likely to fill an area, where-as the dungeon domains have purpose-made dungeons to go to as they are basically centered around the dungeons that were made for them.  Some others were made to imitate as perfectly as possible dungeons feature in past ravenloft games. Unfortunately, a faithful recreation does not mean it is a fun or good dungeon to play.

Many dungeons have basically nothing, just enemies doors and lootables.  This makes them quite boring.  This is especially bad for western barovia, because all the new players are there, and if you manage to just go to boring dungeons you might leave and go play something else or somewhere else.  Part of why I dread making a new character because I really don't want to do the low level leveling.


As an actual, concrete change: I think the invidian soldiers at the secret valley barrows are actually MORE difficult than the undead inside.  I think they need a level boost or CR change to give more xp for longer.  If you get a high spawn, those capitans and espidons can cut up an unprepared party, while also getting shot to pieces by crossbowmen.  It's actually quite nasty and I don't think rewards a party enough.

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #121 on: September 11, 2022, 04:23:33 PM »
Quote
As an actual, concrete change: I think the invidian soldiers at the secret valley barrows are actually MORE difficult than the undead inside.  I think they need a level boost or CR change to give more xp for longer.  If you get a high spawn, those capitans and espidons can cut up an unprepared party, while also getting shot to pieces by crossbowmen.  It's actually quite nasty and I don't think rewards a party enough.

After killing the Invidians, the rest of the dungeon fighting Neureni does feel like a victory lap more than anything else. The Neureni crits can still be devastating, but I'm not sure I'd argue for making them harder. I think the reward at the end is actually very fitting. The Invidian camp is one of the most profitable dungeons in Western Barovia.
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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #122 on: September 11, 2022, 04:39:58 PM »
Quote
As an actual, concrete change: I think the invidian soldiers at the secret valley barrows are actually MORE difficult than the undead inside.  I think they need a level boost or CR change to give more xp for longer.  If you get a high spawn, those capitans and espidons can cut up an unprepared party, while also getting shot to pieces by crossbowmen.  It's actually quite nasty and I don't think rewards a party enough.

After killing the Invidians, the rest of the dungeon fighting Neureni does feel like a victory lap more than anything else. The Neureni crits can still be devastating, but I'm not sure I'd argue for making them harder. I think the reward at the end is actually very fitting. The Invidian camp is one of the most profitable dungeons in Western Barovia.

Echoing this. It's a weird shift that the undead aren't nearly as big a threat as the Invidians up top, but that place is ran like crazy for it's profit. I'm unsure it needs to be changed that hard.
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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #123 on: September 11, 2022, 04:43:36 PM »
Ghastria cannibals - awful loot.  Always.

Hazlan cursts and salamanders - generally terrible loot always.  I’ve seen one “good” item ever from Hazlan in general.

Tergs - get rid of the wights imo or make them higher.

Harvest Temple - less scorpions, higher level.  Not really hard to just mass cull them, but if you have to kill it, it should give xp.  They feel super weak compared to the rest.

Hobgoblin cave - terribly small and the casters make ot a huge pain for that level.

Hotep temple - junk drops always.  Generally still decent coin which sort of compensates given how much garbage drops.

Wagner silver mines - shadow crag cats that haste themselves, dispel you and use elemental damage.  Ouch.

Under broken tower south of vallaki but north of deganwy - day spawns are atrocious. I feel like it could be knights / lords / high huecevas all the time.

Graveyard behind church in VoB - awful loot / xp.  Or maybe I just don’t know what level is appropriate for it.


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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #124 on: September 11, 2022, 05:07:07 PM »
Graveyard behind church in VoB - awful loot / xp.  Or maybe I just don’t know what level is appropriate for it.

That dungeon is really awkward. You typically don't move to east Barovia until level 8+ due to the distance and level of nearby dungeons and that graveyard (along with ants) is geared toward 5-7. They're also completely off-limits during the NCE which sort of defeats the purpose there.

It'd honestly be nice if we could just move the ants to west Barovia and buff up the graveyard.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 05:11:58 PM by Voclain »
Too many regrets. Lost chances – and with each one passing the less human we all became, and the deeper into the nightmare of power we all sank.