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Author Topic: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say  (Read 2331 times)

Iridni Ren

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2020, 09:29:04 AM »
Unfortunately an unavoidable "sample corruption" in a thread like this is the people who are knowledgeable enough to give informed, detailed responses are those who have played here for a very long time and achieved characters who--because of the relationships they have built, if not their level--perceive the content to be relatively easy. For those players, it likely is.

Likewise, this can skew the requests toward better and better loot when PCs already have seen everything in the loot tables several times.

One reason I really like Norture's input is that comes at it from the view of the friend who is a new player, while Norture is able to add the editorial of someone who played here for years and was also a DM.

Loot drops suddenly providing tons of disguise gear...why not? Yes, it will eventually become old hat, but most loot gear should be to support new PCs and new skills. The only novel alternative is to amplify existing gear higher and higher, which just makes balancing more difficult. I don't know how many arguments I've seen over the time I've been here that assume a power-built PC with all the best gear as the example case. It's impossible to balance challenges for those who don't have such an optimized, decked-out PC when the gap keeps widening.

Anyway, I think increasing the difficulty and challenge of the dungeons--to the extent it's possible--should be in a way that does not amplify this disparity. Any problem that can be solved predictably due to pattern will be solved so that the "pros" do it "thousands of times" and find it boring. Inserting randomness into such things as traps and spawn locations will make this more difficult so that experienced players are as likely still challenged without making dungeons ever harder for those new to the server.

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derkotushka

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2020, 10:34:22 AM »
Add more monsters with dispells in dungeons, make casters monsters smarter and adjust/look at their spells and what they are doing.
There many monsters around with greater dispells and strong spells. For example, did you know what Hotep can cast Implosion spell? Yes, she can cast it but she doing it only when all possible spells are cast. Many casters monsters in module have prepared dispells and greater dispells but they all casts it in very last moment. As well some monsters knows mass buff spells and they repeat it and cast it many time when they already was buffed.

In general: make casters smarter, add more dispells. It will make dungeons harder and nicer.
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Chabxxu

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2020, 10:40:03 AM »

As for the Veidrava thing, it's probably bad because of ninja looters yup. It's always been said that ninja looting doesn't affect the spawn, and that's true too.

From my undocumented experience so take it for what it's worth;
-----
Whether ninjalooting or clearing out any dungeon entirely and waiting for max spawn, whoever goes in next is going to find it's bad. You need to be the first group there for that reset while it's at max spawn to get something. That's how it goes from every dungeon instance where I've been able to assess those factors accurately. I've done a lot of ninja looting and solo dungeon clearing of the Barovian dungeons because it's the most my main is capable of, can assassinate the Vassaliches in Cursts and avoid the rest if I'm feeling particularly adventurous but, always, the pattern has been I've only found good things if it's been on max spawn and if no one has visited the dungeon that reset, whether they were there for ninjalooting or for clearing out the dungeon. Could just be bad luck, a quirky bug of the dungeons, the intent behind the chests that isn't discussed publicly to confirm or deny but I've tried what I could try, a considerable lot, found plenty of lotus greaves, greater amulet of mask, a cane of detection etc only when those conditions were met for the dungeons I visited.
-----

As far as I know three things affect loot. Spawn, the time loot is not touched and what has been set to be a loot in the place.
As I said above Sithicus' dungeons got no spawn grades. It's either max, either cleared. Thus it's safe to assume that the first factor can be excluded.
Amount of ninjalooters who know how and presently have pcs able to loot the place up to the very bottom is not as huge as everyone assume. These days server persists for 100h, that's more than enough for all ninjalooters to loot place and for groups to clear the dungeon.
To me the main trouble seems to be the loot table itself. 1 gp worth Grandfather Swords and Casgul Tywill been replaced with 1 gp worth Rods of frosts. Items from cleric loot table (rings, amulets) were removed. The items with extra spellslots for casters too (wizard/sorcerer robes and helmets). That left the area with Tergs-like loot . Discipline gloves and tons of Mouse gear.


I have to disagree with what you said there. As someone whoís been in Veidrava a lot, iíve seen the lower value of the spawns after someone had just cleared it. And more people than you believe can also ninjaloot that dungeon.

The last point where you are wrong is saying that the spell slot items from removed from the loot tables. They werenít. Beamdog changed the worth of spell slots on items, bringing the value of all spellslots items on the server too high for them to actually drop, even in the hardest dungeons. Once the value of them items will be fixed, they will drop again.

Th'rar

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2020, 10:54:01 AM »
Ok i think my comments were misunderstood so i'll make it list-like.

Cursts :
XP : Low risk / high xp - best choice for safe XP - needs more risk (take Deceit's minievent adding regenerating clouds)
LOOT : various, average towards good gear / useful consumables. IMO doesn't require changes in it.
LORE : meh
OOC FUN : exists

Ghastria Bandits:
XP: High risk/ low xp - needs improvement
LOOT: High risk / low loot usual, VERY rarely good - needs improvement
LORE : somehow decent , there's a book inside explaining of what they are and who they are, and descriptions
OOC FUN : exists

VoB GROUP:(vestibule,werefoxes,below city
XP: risk/xp decent rate
LOOT: very low, demontivational, needs improvement
LORE : very good lore, interesting dungeons
OOC FUN : NONE, maybe do it one-two times to look at it's beauties..., but it becomes boring fastly

These are the dungeons I thought of only, if i'll remember of any else I'll edit this reply or will add another.
There are many of low level dugeons (lvl 2- lvl 6) which could be transformed into mid level dungeons, as they're rarely used.

If you find this way of suggesting for dungeon improvement useful, please use it. I think it explains better and more directly the issues we find in them.


(edit)

HAG GROUP:
XP: risk/xp decent, good
LOOT: : Too much rogue loot, Needs diversified

Fanes :Finding rogue loot in Fanes is logical, as there are darklings, they're assassins, can be added bardic ones (as darklings are ex vistana, who're having talent for music)
Swamps : I would like to see more 'tribal classes' loot : ranger, druid, barbarian, to fit the atmosphere.
Lysaga: Would like to see more demonic ones (for blaguard, loot type for evil, or for good but cursed, fallen paladin gloves as an example)
Blasutein: Island of bandits and pirates, would like to see more fighter/swashbuckler'like loot, or bard (rapiers, shortswords, leathers)

LORE : Some do have (Blaustein map before the entrance) some don't
Would like to see for example at fanes some memoires of a fallen vistana, how he felt in love in Black Agnes etc. etc.
Tribal signs and runes that would need lore to be discovered the story of the place.
And something at Lysaga ( wasn't Zelenaya Baba Sthard's babysitter?)

OOC FUN : yes they're fun
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 11:46:51 AM by Th'rar »

HighPrimate

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2020, 11:38:41 AM »

I have to disagree with what you said there. As someone whoís been in Veidrava a lot, iíve seen the lower value of the spawns after someone had just cleared it. And more people than you believe can also ninjaloot that dungeon.

The last point where you are wrong is saying that the spell slot items from removed from the loot tables. They werenít. Beamdog changed the worth of spell slots on items, bringing the value of all spellslots items on the server too high for them to actually drop, even in the hardest dungeons. Once the value of them items will be fixed, they will drop again.

Isn't the value of the item is custom and applied to an item before it's added to the module? I've been getting a feeling that it is, looking at the posts in Item Request Thread, where players post the value.

As for spawn system. I won't be going in 'yes-no' type of debate. My personal experience made say what I said.


Chabxxu

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2020, 11:42:11 AM »
It should be working as custom value, sadly with the change to EE it doesnít. I can show you screenshots of most spell slots items that are now valued around 12k in the loot tables, while they used to be around 4-5k. Itís the biggest problem why the loot is so bad at the moment.

FunkyMonkey

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2020, 02:54:34 AM »
Hazlan: add some variable caves in the mountain area.

Higher level escaped slaves/experiments of the red academy roaming the woods, mountains and farm lands (at night for the latter)

Open up the red highway as a mist travel route?

Har'akir: desert marauders/bandits/escaped slaves encampment

Blaustein: local Schipper who can take you out to board other boats (variable dungeon) bounties could be added.

Mermaids or is that to out there...

Ghastria: add variable or a set dungeon from which the ghasts/wights spill out of at night.

Barovia:
Vob needs more loot in the lore dungeons or xp/lore checks on what you learn.
Ghakis peak could be a high level dungeon
Bring the invidians back but in a different camp spot or falkovnian militia swept up by the mists.
Krezk mid to high level bandit/marauder dungeon to bring people out to the wachter lands
Lake zarovich dungeon, or is there one?

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Hypatia

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2020, 03:09:43 PM »
If you're going to be rebalancing any dungeons, I suppose I'd suggest to use Glass Cannon monsters. They make for fast, unpredictable combat where every character class becomes valid and important instead of just the warded tanks.

My first recommendation might be the vestibule under Barovia Villages' morning lord temple. Currently the dungeon is just not exciting.  I've actually fallen asleep in there. The monsters are largely all the same, have waaaaay too many HP and just don't have the attack power they need to be a threat. They are easy to bottleneck and its almost impossible to get surrounded there if you are careful, so basically it comes down to a slog where no one is in any real danger. I would rather see those guys with LOW HP and AC, but hit like trucks. I would like to see their AB high enough to hit the insane AC's players get on here with expertise. 

When the baddies have low HP and AC it make support characters like archers, rogues and low AC flankers a lot more viable.  The tank suddenly depends on their support to thin and weaken the monsters while the sneaks and flankers are needed to kill quick because the tank isn't going to be able to hold out for long. Party dynamics.  Everyone depending on each other to survive.  When monsters have high AC and HP, the only truly important PCs for battle are the tanks, and the mages who ward them.

You see this philosophy at work when you're very low level.  its what makes it so fun. The monsters can and will hit you, and deal a significant % of your HP in damage. You depend on your support heavily to thin the ranks from afar and get those fast kills in before the monsters can get too many attacks in.  Fast, unpredictable combat where tactics and organization make all the difference. You can keep this same dynamic going in higher levels by using glass cannon monsters.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 03:14:32 PM by Hypatia »

tylernwn

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2020, 04:23:22 PM »
If you're going to be rebalancing any dungeons, I suppose I'd suggest to use Glass Cannon monsters. They make for fast, unpredictable combat where every character class becomes valid and important instead of just the warded tanks.

My first recommendation might be the vestibule under Barovia Villages' morning lord temple. Currently the dungeon is just not exciting.  I've actually fallen asleep in there. The monsters are largely all the same, have waaaaay too many HP and just don't have the attack power they need to be a threat. They are easy to bottleneck and its almost impossible to get surrounded there if you are careful, so basically it comes down to a slog where no one is in any real danger. I would rather see those guys with LOW HP and AC, but hit like trucks. I would like to see their AB high enough to hit the insane AC's players get on here with expertise. 

When the baddies have low HP and AC it make support characters like archers, rogues and low AC flankers a lot more viable.  The tank suddenly depends on their support to thin and weaken the monsters while the sneaks and flankers are needed to kill quick because the tank isn't going to be able to hold out for long. Party dynamics.  Everyone depending on each other to survive.  When monsters have high AC and HP, the only truly important PCs for battle are the tanks, and the mages who ward them.

You see this philosophy at work when you're very low level.  its what makes it so fun. The monsters can and will hit you, and deal a significant % of your HP in damage. You depend on your support heavily to thin the ranks from afar and get those fast kills in before the monsters can get too many attacks in.  Fast, unpredictable combat where tactics and organization make all the difference. You can keep this same dynamic going in higher levels by using glass cannon monsters.

I agree that some glass cannon champion monsters here and there would probably spice things up. Though obviously you don't want to overdo it.
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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2020, 04:34:27 PM »
Frankly, with the nature of NWN's various instabilities and glitches, I am not particularly in favor of increasing lethality through introduction of more glass cannon mobs. These sorts of mobs will have a meta that forms to deal with them as surely as metas exist already - the only difference will be that perhaps a larger percentage of the time, the RNG says "Oops you're a corpse"

I've rolled enough consecutive ones in this game to be uninterested in that sort of disruption. It's not exciting, it's frustrating.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2020, 04:53:06 PM »
I think some of the current glass cannon monsters are typically underwhelming to fight. That they have incredible spells and whatnot but die in 3-4 hits doesn't make tanks less valuable, the tanks are likely the ones causing the most damage anyway, especially in the case that they're going to be the first to engage, the first to land a hit, and maybe even kill it before other people get to it.

I find combat to already be fast, though not unpredictable maybe. There are a lot of monsters which have plenty of health and can utterly destroy you if you take your utmost focus off the game for a moment, or you fail to disrupt this instant death spell or that gigantic AOE that's getting spammed 3-4 times in a row, sometimes twice or more in one round. There are plenty of spells in dungeons which can outright kill you long after you can gain XP from the enemies casting them, even while you're full buff. The reason you don't see them is because the enemies are dying so fast already.

I'm fine with difficult dungeons, but leveling up is slow enough already. If hard-mode dungeons are to be put in, they should just award more XP and loot, otherwise you'll end up with the current situation, which is, to reiterate, everyone doing the same few dungeons because they're easy and give satisfactory XP, and the loot's not so shabby either. I mean, the most annoying bounty in Port isn't even the one that awards the most money -- and the one that's worth the biggest award also has free money spawning in containers near him.

So, sure, throw in some of these, but maybe consider putting them in dungeons specifically made to be hard but with a guaranteed fantastic payoff, so people can avoid this increased challenge if they want to. There are some dungeons I will personally only do if I have a perfect party. There are some nights I am fine with doing whatever because I have time to screw around. And while I do think we could stand to have more enemy variety in general, the absolute last thing I want to see is "glass cannon" mobs spammed everywhere since they're some of the most annoying. How about those vampire sorceresses which tend to be harder to kill than everything around them if you fail to gank them before their concealment? Stuff like that's way more annoying than battling hordes of meaty enemies (which I tend to enjoy fighting, as a flanker, archer, healer, and support caster).
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Hypatia

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2020, 05:17:58 PM »
Glass Cannons aren't necessarily "harder." But they do change dynamics for the better, lending more equal value to support.  Tanks can kill them, sure, but they will be taking hits without support to thin the ranks and assist damage.  I have seen this in action across a couple servers, including a server I ran with great results. Ravenloft does a pretty good job of making high AC, HP mobs work by throwing a million of them at you so you're going to get hit, but the thing is, that maybe puts even more emphasis on the tanks. Obviously there's no magic formula, but a few Glass Cannon dungeons might be a good idea to spice up some of the dungeons.  I think most of us would agree the Vestibule is a little dry and predictable.

Khornite

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2020, 05:21:51 PM »
I think some of the current glass cannon monsters are typically underwhelming to fight. That they have incredible spells and whatnot but die in 3-4 hits doesn't make tanks less valuable, the tanks are likely the ones causing the most damage anyway, especially in the case that they're going to be the first to engage, the first to land a hit, and maybe even kill it before other people get to it.

Vassiliches are a HUGE example of this problem. I don't think I've ever actually seen one cast an offensive spell before. They're the easiest part of any encounter by a large margin and in the Curst cave especially, kind of just exist as a way to give parties more EXP. Give them some more HP. Honestly, I think most mobs could stand to have less monsters, but more EXP (Just to even things out) and give them more HP. That could make melee types a lot more valuable.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2020, 05:45:32 PM »
I completely forgot about Vassiliches. Being that I usually stay a little bit behind the frontline I just remembered I never see them, they are always dead before I get to them lol.

I agree the Vestibule really is a very monotonous, long, drawn out dungeon, almost anything done to spice it up would be a positive change, and just a few dungeons getting the glass cannon treatment is acceptable as long as the XP is worth the added risk.
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Ken14

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2020, 01:41:04 AM »
I think all dungeons could do with different kind of spawns. However, I feel like dungeons would be more fun if they variable spawnings

As in, an uncommon switchup from the usual foes you face.

Like, for example: the classic barovian crypts, with it's variable spawn going from skeletal minions to full blown lords, with the occasional zombie thrown in.

But what if, once in a while, it'd be a zombie apocalypse down there? By which I mean that the entire crypts is made out of zombies. Maddened Corpses, ect for the first floor, zombie champions on the second-third floor and fullblown juju champions on the last floor, with a necromancer/Voodan in the antechamber, directing a horde of Juju Zombies.

Heck, if possible? As soon as someone enters a floor, the entire floor starts shambling for the entrance.

Erebus

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2020, 11:21:46 AM »
Phase one of the project is now going up for testing. The changes (in no particular order), are:
These changes are not final, and are subject to testing and review.

New Blaustein dungeon, suitable for levels 14-16.

Rebalanced the Sanctuary Upper and Lower Catacombs. They now have their own population, which affects/is affected by the Ancient Burial Ground, but will rise and fall seperately. The Upper Catacombs is significantly more player-friendly, and the Lower Catacombs slightly more player-friendly.

Gremshika now give better xp are less deadly.

The kobolds' pets are now less dangerous, making the kobold cave easier.

Needlemen no longer spam undodgable insta-killing shards.

Shadow Animals can now be hurt by +1 Weapons, but a +2 is better. Shadow Wolves also no longer cast Dispell.

Voidborne Negators are less deadly, making the final room of Elketh's tower easier.

--
Mt. Baratak Spider Cave now has better loot.

Mt. Baratak Silver Mines now has loot.

Petran Orchard Signal Tower has better loot.

Ratuda Keep has less loot, and is harder to loot.

--

Black Molly can now use See Invisibility.

Added traps to the Reaver cave and Forest Fane, to spice them up a little. These traps spawn occasionally, in a variable setup, and shouldn't ever block progress completely.

Fixed the erroneous deadly electrical traps in the Road to Zeidenburg ghoul cabin, and the giant inescapable trap trigger.

--

Added a new ranged enemy type to the Curst caves. Reorganised the encounters so that they're more spread out, with a chance of ambushes. Boosted vassalich's HP significantly, and gave them some much-needed protection. Slightly improved loot.

Reworked the Giant Ants. They should now present a reasonable challenge/reward for levels 6-9, including loot and XP.

Slightly adjusted the spawn rate of rats in the vallaki slums sewers.

Fixed the spawns in the vallaki underground caves connecting the sewers to the crypts.

Th'rar

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2020, 03:14:20 AM »
Wow really? Can't wait to get home and try the new cursts ! :o

Erebus

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2020, 03:29:14 AM »
This is all on the test server, fyi. Please do as much testing as you can.

Mayvind

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2020, 03:46:56 AM »
cannot log it need Hak ?

MAB77

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2020, 06:07:09 AM »
cannot log it need Hak ?

To log on the test server you'll need to:
1) Fetch CEP 2.65, either by subscribing to Steam or downloading it through Neverwinter Vault.
2) Download the HAK here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gELuxtiuAnphHmaDBu1pGk3P_P15Z8iV/view?usp=sharing

The test server direct connect address is 46.4.59.55:5124.
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MAB77

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2020, 11:50:02 AM »
A  new version of the HAK for the test server available here.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gELuxtiuAnphHmaDBu1pGk3P_P15Z8iV/view?usp=sharing
Best Regards!
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FunkyMonkey

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2020, 07:46:10 PM »
City of oozes in the mists. Harrowing! Maybe push the spawns back so they don't swarm the transition. Leave the streets empty to lure you into a false sense of security before you soil your breeches and flee howling like a banshee.

Lich tower/elketh traps are DC 45 which is on par with Har'akir. Bit high for the level Range in the area and loot that can be found inside. The first two areas give better xp than the latter areas. the spectre side kicks to elketh are ass whooping machines while elketh spells are a bit meh.
Folk have asked for high level dungeons in barovia.
I'd say give elketh some sick spells. A bit more room to manoeuvre in the final room. Adjust the ecl and loot to reflect the challenge.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2020, 01:37:52 PM »
Ghakis Ice Mummy caves: Very scary, very challenging, incredibly bad loot (soft leather boots, rods of frost).
: )


SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2020, 01:54:59 PM »
You know, I was thinking the same thing. That place is ridiculous and the enemies in there are just wild. I wonder if even the XP is level appropriate. That place definitely needs its rewards tuned up, it's one of the longest adventures in the module and people should have some sort of incentive to go there, other than wanting to be in great pain.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2020, 10:18:10 PM »
The fire snakes burrow is just a mess. Massive hitboxes of individual snakes combined with narrow hallways leads to terrible rubberbanding and glitching even when the server isn't lagging, and I've seen people get teleported behind the mobs due to pathing despite having no way to get back out. If there's any way to modify their outrageous hitbox size, it'd be much more playable for those of us who don't rely on utterly steamrolling it.

This dungeon could be a lot more interesting, featuring a greater variety of enemies, maybe a few open areas and a real boss. For how hard these things can hit players of the appropriate level, it's really difficult to even tell when they attack because of their dated animations. Since they also breathe such potent negative energy (indeed the majority of their damage if you have evasion to nullify the fire) maybe there should be an indication of dark magic influence in the area, or at least in the burrow, but maybe I'm missing the source material that says fire snakes can breathe flames of dark energy? What about some other fire elementals in there you can't just evade all the fire damage from, like say, Magmin? Or fire-based undead? Would a dry lich hole up down here on max spawn?

As it is right now, I'm not sure I see the quality and atmosphere other dungeons boast, nor its gameplay purpose besides maybe alchemy ingredient spam. These enemies are cool, but the technical difficulties experienced when fighting them en masse make this dungeon a chore. Even just a little variety would go a long way in improving it.
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