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Author Topic: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say  (Read 16613 times)

DM Erebus

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Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« on: January 05, 2020, 04:39:45 PM »
Hello,
I'm soliciting feedback on dungeons which are in need of looking at again, whether they are too easy/rewarding, or too hard/not rewarding enough, or even just if you never go there because there's no point.

I will be looking into refreshing and  improving some of them, so if you have strong opinions about what needs the most love, and how, please sound off.

Phantasia

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2020, 04:40:28 PM »
Tergs.
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2020, 04:44:18 PM »
Gremishkas & Kobolds - Both are too dangerous for the level-range they're intended for. Due to being dex-heavy tiny creatures, they tend towards deceptively high AB and AC.

Hobgoblin Cave Southeast of Vallaki farms - Very small dungeon, not even worth visiting.

Weird Rakshasha Tunnel (little hut on the side of the road near Lysaga transition) - Huge zone with next to no enemies in it, and what few enemies are in it give no exp. I don't even know why this place exists?
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immasturgeon

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2020, 04:48:10 PM »
Curst - Too easy to solo as a mage for exceedingly good XP, otherwise it is fine

Ants - Too much XP for the relatively low risk, even considering the poor loot

Monastary - Too much XP given at levels above 7-8, given the very low risk, ease of completion, and good loot

VoB Well - Risk reward is heavily skewed too much to the risk direction, it is too hard for the small gains
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 06:12:09 PM by immasturgeon »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2020, 04:54:51 PM »
A dungeon that no one seems to go to is the Werefoxes/Elven sorceresses.

I think the Darklings are one of the most rewarding and best balanced to challenge encounters on the server, but it also seems to be a prime target of ninja looting. Making it more of a challenge in that regard would be an improvement. (I'm not saying make it impossible to ninja loot, only that it might be unbalanced, judging by how often it is.)

Simply refreshing the dungeons is a great initiative. If EE and the new dev tools allow greater unpredictability--such as traps that spawn in varying locations--that would make all the dungeons more difficult to game.


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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2020, 05:07:01 PM »
1. Werefoxes - too easy.

2. Werewolves by Village of Barovia - pretty weak loot for a considerable challenge

3. Gremishka & Kobold cave - completely not worth doing on any level, too much danger for almost no gain for the intented level

4.Rakshasa place - it could use some exp and loot adjustment
 
5. Salamander cave in Hazlan (especially the main, open part.) - I'd just suggest adding some more points where you can lure small groups of mobs, without attracting every single one of them to you, resulting in TPK. If that's not possible, then maybe some loot adjustment would be nice.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2020, 05:11:43 PM »
Perfidus - Give all greater fiends unnerfed true seeing/tremor sense.

Curst - caster enemies/ranged attackers at the back of mobs.

Give all Hags unnerfed true seeing, or much better detection.  At present they are assassination targets.

Hara'kir trolls - Give Chieftains Freedom of Movement as a permanent effect.

Hobgoblin cave feels thematically all out of place and isn't that interesting a spot. 

The ant cave is so good for xp its a meme at this point.

There are quite a few dungeons which don't seem to be on a rotation, but I am hesitant to say which because I dungeon rather infrequently these days.

firelord111

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2020, 05:42:04 PM »
The dungeon from the well in vob needs some changes personlly for me the dungeon was too long and repetitive . I don't have problem with long dungeons but i don't want to fight same group of enemies for 20th time.
My biggest barrier when I started playing in server was getting from lvl 2 to 3 I would like to see lvl 2 becoming better so people don't rush in catacombs.


APorg

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2020, 06:05:33 PM »
The dungeon from the well in vob needs some changes personlly for me the dungeon was too long and repetitive . I don't have problem with long dungeons but i don't want to fight same group of enemies for 20th time.

Yeah, IMO this dungeon is probably the most tedious.
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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2020, 06:29:34 PM »
Spiders are generally avoided altogether because the risk is too great for what rewards are offered by the dungeons they spawn in. I can't remember which dungeon specifically I was running, but I came close to soiling myself when a gigantor spider spawned right on top of me.

Personally, I'd like to see more spawn traps like that.

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2020, 07:09:21 PM »
Thirded on VoB well dungeon. Tedious and dull. Not much story or points of interest in the dungeon.

Abandoned Bellegarde mine in Dementlieu. People who could go there to get XP won't.

Wererats under VoB are fine in terms of challenge, but a few more things to look at/hint about story would be nice. Tool tips and examineable placeables.

Curst loot is hideous for the challenge scale.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 07:10:54 PM by Homebrew Hokum »
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Khornite

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2020, 07:28:52 PM »
In general I think there could stand to be an overall balance tweak on the servers dungeons. The majority of dungeons are too easy for mages to solo and it kind of makes pure melee guys near useless compared to the caster classes. I know mages are supposed to be stronger in late game, but with how the server does gear, the gap is widened significantly. Maybe buff up on spell resistance on monsters?

Salamanders - Just too many dispels, makes the fight tedious. Too many enemies, can result in crashes and FPS drop.

Cursts - Too easy for mages to solo.

Ice Palace - Just a visual overhaul would be nice.

VoB - Way too long to be fighting the same enemy over and over and over. No offense meant, but this dungeon is a bore.

Tergs/Mountain Crypts - That pit area with all the negative energy just halves frame rate

The Mists - Dear god, my FPS. It's like the game grabbed their belt and just started "alcoholic step-fathering" my video card.

Ooze City - There seems to be some kind of spawn trigger that pops up some oozes when you step over it. It seems to reset instantly and I've seen it spawn insane numbers of oozes, maybe put on a cooldown for a few seconds.
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Relapse

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2020, 07:30:54 PM »
Agree with all of the advice that has been posted.

I'd like to see Sithicus scaled to become more progressively accessible to high levels.

APorg

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2020, 07:32:29 PM »
Ooze City - There seems to be some kind of spawn trigger that pops up some oozes when you step over it. It seems to reset instantly and I've seen it spawn insane numbers of oozes, maybe put on a cooldown for a few seconds.

Fairly sure this is deliberate.  Ooze City is meant to be a bit of a "no go" zone where even veteran level 20s fear to tread.
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Khornite

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2020, 07:57:15 PM »
Ooze City - There seems to be some kind of spawn trigger that pops up some oozes when you step over it. It seems to reset instantly and I've seen it spawn insane numbers of oozes, maybe put on a cooldown for a few seconds.

Fairly sure this is deliberate.  Ooze City is meant to be a bit of a "no go" zone where even veteran level 20s fear to tread.

It is, but the game cracking out shouldn't be factored into difficulty. I've seen the trigger spawn more oozes just because of the random steps your character takes during combat. Games should be difficult because they're built to be difficult, not because you're fighting lag/frame loss/scripts acting weird. Think about Dark Souls 1, for example. What made Blight Town so difficult? Lots of poison, tough enemies, but the hardest part of it was your frame rate dropping from the capped 30 to 15 regardless of how good your computer was. That's just frustrating and not fun for anyone, that's artificial difficulty. It'd be like saying "Oh, the server hasn't been reset in 300 hours. That's not lag, that's just hard mode. Git gud, skrub."
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PlatointheCave

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2020, 09:33:14 PM »
My strongest opinion is that making XP even harder to find in dungeons is not at all appealing.

Searching for a dungeon with a big enough spawn to be worth doing when people are around is hard.

Are ants a lot of xp? Yes. Do I want to have to search harder to do the least fun part of playing here besides maybe crafting?

Absolutely not.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2020, 09:46:52 PM »
In that regard, I think a few dungeons could do with more xp reward.  Ants are a lot of xp but too much for the challenge.  In that respect, others of an appreciable difficulty could offer something comparable to give more options.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2020, 09:52:04 PM »
Are ants a lot of xp? Yes. Do I want to have to search harder to do the least fun part of playing here besides maybe crafting?

Absolutely not.

The XP varies quite a bit on the ants, along with the challenge, IMO. Sometimes they're a walk and don't give anything, sometimes you can be 7th or 8th level and get XP...but you also have to know how to do it: they can take down an unprepared PC of that level.

Anyway, I agree with your main point. The effort to improve dungeons would be best devoted to other facets than nerfing XP.


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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2020, 12:48:25 AM »
Do not nerf the xp on dungeons that give it please. I think a lot of other things need a boost instead. I just made a new character with friends, it was frustrating trying to find dungeons that gave XP compared to the investment into them. And a lot of the decent areas are often frequented, so we'd come in to find things at low spawn.

Another issue is a lot of dungeons have resources in them. Like the sullen woods are farmed by people who want the alchemy reagents, leaving it at low spawn if higher levels are grinding out alchemy.

As for locations:
Grimishka caves: You barely from them even at level 2.

The giant winding tunnels under Vallaki/the forest: Very little xp at level appropriate levels. It was still a challenge to take on, especially if black puddings had spawned, but gave very little xp compared to the difficulty. I think all slimes could have their XP amount increased, they are not worth killing for a lot of classes because of the damage they do to equipment, the splitting, the equipment stripping, the unnerfed true seeing, the bludgeoning requirement, and so forth. They're a very difficult creature that have a lot of tricks to them, that gives very little in reward for defeating them.

Random caves: Often didn't give XP to make them worthwhile. Too hard to do at level 2 or 3, but by the time we were level 4 or 5 we weren't getting much XP from it, or no XP at all. A lot of the dungeon content around Vallaki consists of random caves, too. There's something like six random spawn caves that aren't worth doing except for the bandit bounty.

Sullen Woods: The shadow wolves and lesser shadow wolves cast dispel, which makes them impossible at low levels. We weren't even getting decent xp from it compared to the added difficulty that dispel added. The area has shadow rats too, which gave very little xp despite being around things that added a lot of challenge to the area.

Seconding that spiders don't give enough XP for the difficulty.

The hidden trap door fortress on the Svalich road: Much like other random spawn caves, the spiders/ogres/bandits/heaven forbid slimes don't give enough XP versus the challenge. Offhand I want to say that the more difficult random spawn caves (such as on Ghakis or north of the lake) give ok XP and loot. If you can change the fortress to use those spawns instead, it might be a better dungeon. But this is off memory, I haven't done the newer harder random cave spawns in a while.

Ogres on the road: Often at high spawn because nobody wants to kill them. It might be nice to make it worth killing them. There's not a whole lot of them, boost the XP they give so if it actually does get to a higher level spawn it'd be something people passing through could get excited for rather than running through and pretending the ogres don't exist.

Vegepygmies: Terrifying noob trap. Someone I know who tried the server had a negative experience as a noob, they were exploring while invisible and got killed by their unnerfed trueseeing, and left the server. Vegepygmies are sort of difficult and can do a lot of ranged damage quickly, and give absolutely no xp to make them worthwhile. I don't know if this has changed in recent years, it's high risk enough that I don't like going down there. I made the mistake of going down there at low level too when I was initially exploring the server.

People have mentioned the Village dungeons. I think the dungeons are fine, the issue is the xp is not good despite the challenge and the loot is bad. For example, the infamous well dungeon is pretty hard at level-appropriate levels. And the loot is really bad.
The vault at the back of the Village ML church dungeon is really, really easy once you're able to get the key to be able to do it. The shadow fiends in it look like they should be really scary and dangerous, but they're easy and don't reward much xp. And the loot is bad.
I love both of these dungeons, I like that search and exploration are big parts of it. You don't hear people complaining about the other similarly complex dungeons, because it's worth doing them. The only issue with these two dungeons is they have no reward and people feel burned for spending time on them.

The crypt in behind the Village ML church is sort of bad too. Me and a friend tried doing it lately and maybe it was just on low spawn, but he was level 9 and got no XP from it, I barely got anything at level 7.



Otherwise:
Could the xp from woodland critters be boosted to how it was years ago? I was able to get to level 3 off killing deer/mink and turning in hides when I started the server. Right now it's unreasonably difficult for a level 2 to become level 3 unless they get carried by other players or do delivery quests over and over and over. This makes it unintuitive for people new to the server to know what to do unless they have friends who can guide them.

When I say unintuitive, I mean the way you normally think about gaining XP is going and killing stuff or doing dungeons. But it's very clunky until about level 4, and a lot of level 2/3 dungeons don't reward anything. The most optimal way to get XP is to know how the server works, or get carried by friends. Both of these require a pre-established presence on the server. It would be better for new players if things like hunting deer and minks was viable for the first few levels again.

A bunch of my friends are checking the server out and we're trying to figure out the best way to get them through level 2 and 3 so we can start doing dungeons together. I'd like to do dungeon content with them, I think PotM's dungeons are a lot of fun. The server mechanics make going through the dungeons require some thought, preparation and planning to figure out what a group can accomplish with what resources they have available to them.


Another suggestion is to make getting to level 4 or 5 easier, because that's when the game starts to get more playable and enjoyable. When I could go take friends out to low level dungeons, and each class would be able to do some things that their class gets to do.


APorg

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2020, 01:30:32 AM »
Vegepygmies: Terrifying noob trap. Someone I know who tried the server had a negative experience as a noob, they were exploring while invisible and got killed by their unnerfed trueseeing, and left the server. Vegepygmies are sort of difficult and can do a lot of ranged damage quickly, and give absolutely no xp to make them worthwhile. I don't know if this has changed in recent years, it's high risk enough that I don't like going down there. I made the mistake of going down there at low level too when I was initially exploring the server.

Are those the things that fire quills that can one-shot kill you in a mob?

Yeah, those things are awful. Haven't seen them in years, though, hopefully they've been removed...
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Kamfrenchie

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2020, 02:53:58 AM »
I think vegepugmies as you call them are still there in the forest treasure room south of the abandonned inn.

Them and their spiky pets that do guaranteed damage can be pretty rough yeah.

Agreed on the well, spiders, and outskirts cave. Werefoxes / paka too.  Aside from the xp/difficulty, i dont think it makes sense to have several werefoxes work together ?

Disorder

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2020, 03:46:41 AM »
1. Grant cursts ultravision. Make mixed groups of swordsman and assassins, not separate clusters like it's right now. Loot in the dead bodies is just fine there for how easy it is to loot.  Reward in the final chests should be adjusted, made bigger.

2. Desert trolls. This one is trickier than it seems at first glance. Main trouble, in my opinion, is that it's not in the line with all the other PoTM dungeons, because it can be grinded in circles. If DM/dev member want me to explain exploit pm me. That needs to be changed. On other hand, for a place with death spells of the most annoying sorts, mobs with 600+ (?) hp, melee damage of piercing and slashing kind dealt at once exp reward is small..... if you don't grind it in circle, of course. I'd adjust type of dmg dealt by trolls too, changing it from slashing + piercing to bludgeon + piercing. The crushing strikes of giants, like those trolls are, makes more sense for me. Bone piles in cave contain small reward.
As for applying permanent freedom of movement there: this will also disable ability to paralyze trolls with hold monster/mass hold monster, not only helping the problem of what druid class can do there solo.

3. Fire caves. Seems just fine for me, but I'd like to see exp. points income to be slightly improved. To me it seems that amount of challenge caused by spam of dispels is not properly rewarded neither exp wise, neither loot wise.

4. Dementlieuse old sewers. Great place. Works fine from all possible point of view in my opinion. The respawn rate is a bit too slow. It required 48 hours for a place to reach its maximum spawn. That's a bit too long in comparison with other high lvl content.

5. Sithicus. This really deserves separate topic, but I'll try to be brief. First thing first, add there lower grades of spawn. It's either max, either empty. Perhaps that would attract more people into the domain. And in general.... solution needs to be found for whole domain not be looking like one huge dungeon.

6. Perfidus. Failed to see points of adding unnerfed  True Seeing for Greater fiendish aberrations there. No idea what it would improve or what exploit prevent. Seems logical to add regular TS, without ability to auto detect stealthed pcs to Demonologists, so they'll be more effective, but they're casting TS on themselves anyway.
My main suggestion there is to adjust sequence of casting for Demonologists. Let them begin with haste, not do nonsense they're doing right now, doing Time Stop and only then hasting themselves. That's one round lost.
Lastly, exp gain. Characters of lvl 18 and 19 got 0 exp points from the greater fiendish aberrations. Not a single tick of exp. It's logical to assume that pcs of 17 lvl recieve small droplets of exp. For a temple filled with outsiders it doesn't look to be good solution. Loot is great. I'd not change it.

7. Hags. While this time I see the point of unnerfed TS to be added it won't really save the hags from being slayed. There are tactics when it would help to separate them from the group foes, rather than protect them from quick killing. In general, this thead is not about making ninja-looting harder. All four dungeons with hags seems to be fairly balanced for me. I don't see exploits or various inconsistencies there.

8. Werefoxes. Same case as with Demonologists. Strange spell casting sequence. They cast invisibility - ghostly visage - fire shield warm and then for some reason fire shield chill, which makes them waste one round on a spell that overwrites previous cast. I'd like to see half of them casting chill shield and other warm one.
After warding they begin to cast combat magic, so they never seemed to me to be weak. Three various elemental damage types + magic missiles. I'll add that it's been quite some tiem when I was with an appropriate lvl group there, some details may elude me.

9. Well in  Village. Welp... it's hard, it's tedious, it inherits traits of old time dungeon crawling games. My main concern for that place however is its respawn rate. From what I recall, it takes not just several days in order to reach peak spawn, it literally takes weeks.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 03:56:00 AM by HighPrimate »

Khornite

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2020, 05:16:52 AM »
On my phone right now, so I can't properly quote, but on the topic of fiends in Perfidus having vanilla true seeing? I'm gunna have to disagree on that one. I spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME in Perfidus and sneaking around pit fiends is a nightmare even without them having true seeing, it's ten times worse when you're trying to stealthly harvest meteors. Some of the scariest stuff I've gone through on this server is mining in Perfidus. I've been invisible before and had those pit fiends chase me for 20 minutes after spotting me on more than one occasion. The Risk vs Reward in Perfidus is probably the best on the server. The only thing in Perf that I would suggest changing is removing time stop from the demonologists. They never use it effectively. Half the time I can actually knockdown the caster and they spend half the timestop on the floor. All the time stop ends up amounting to is giving you 30 seconds to twiddle your thumbs. Something that might be better is replacing the timestop with a gate spell or greater planar binding, these guys are demonologists but we never see them doing any demonologisting. Also, the exp could use a bit of a bump up. As it stands, the trolls in Har'akir are better exp.
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DM Indolence

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2020, 05:48:17 AM »
Salt Mines. The loot seems moderately worse than the far easier Barrows. Got nearly a dozen Rods of Frost both times I went, and I'd expect at least double that given the risks involved.

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Re: Dungeons in need of refreshing - Have Your Say
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2020, 08:10:24 AM »
Salt Mines. The loot seems moderately worse than the far easier Barrows. Got nearly a dozen Rods of Frost both times I went, and I'd expect at least double that given the risks involved.

The loot is bad because too many people ninjaloot it. If nobody did, the loot would be great when someone went to clear the dungeon.