The DM Presence Problem; A solution To Player Engagement

[Hallvor Hadiya]

Prisoners of the Mist, a persistent world story. It is now a new year and with the release of the wonderful new HAK file our eyes are firmly on the future. However, a lot of the problems we faced last year are still with us. This is a series of proposals to inject new life into an old game. A Remaster if you will.

Problem Number 1; "If role-play happens and no DM is around to see it, does it make an impact?"

We are reliant on DMs more now than ever, and between the apps and in-game content they’ve done an admirable job. However due to quality control their numbers are never going to meet server demands & AMPCs can only do so much with the tools and life-spans provided. Its like we’re all around a big table playing D&D, we have the tiles, the miniatures but we only have dungeon master for half the time. Stories grind to halt in the intermediate and we’re forced to rehash the same content hoping our elusive game master will return.

How many times have you heard this or something similar “I heard there’s something out in the mists”, “can we go see it”, “/t player name: Is a DM on/wants to do it?”, “/t player name: Nope”. “I feel the time is wrong for such things”.

This proposes to give players roles or the ability to apply or be given the character or position of certain NPCs to smooth out the flow of the game, and create in intrigue and interaction without the presence of a DM. The position can be easily monitored similar to AMPC with an outline/script to follow. So instead of just having the option to wait for a DM with no certainty that they will respond, due to a scheduling, conflict of interest, etcetera. You can seek out a middle man whose only role is to play this character and can advance the story.

Examples

Hand of the Burgomeister(it really can be any place); for example, there's only so high you can climb in a faction before you reach an NPC, and to even talk to them you need a DM present. This disrupts role-play. This ANPC would focus on maintaining order in the city, looking at reports, distributing justice and have the ability to call upon men resources not readily available to others. Similar to the AMPC they would have the ability to spawn NPCs as companions and the atmospheric shop interface.

The fist of the Tyrant; Ravenloft at its core is a story about the darklords, without them the very domains on which we walk wouldn’t exist. But we hardly feel their presence, I mean they’re occasionally talked about but with little action they are hardly dark, more just regular lords messing around in their castles we don’t get to see. In Nemsis 24 poll “Where is Strahd? A question and poll for the community”, we overwhelmingly saw that people want to interact with the setting regardless if it has consequences for their characters, this isn’t Strahd but it could be his or any other darklords presence

“Where is Strahd? A question and poll for the community” - https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=52082.msg632072#msg632072

This ANPC would focus on challenging the player base and its hostile elements, I’m not proposing we create a DM sanctioned ganker but something to remind people that they’re are greater forces out there, someone who might appear and send a message or put a horse head in someone’s bed as a warning. “Keep going down this path and see what happens.” And offer rewards for people who might turn on them, or make sure no one ever harbours them without dire consequences. “Players don’t fear the night, give them a reason other than the book says so”.

Players like to build things, they like to feel their actions matter. But it has become apparent to many that its a lot easier said than done, in the ultimate expression of that players band together for a common cause or thematic, indulge in their ideas and creative urges. They form factions.

But honestly; there’s little point you hardly have power beyond the moment, what little you eke out disappears every reset and with no tangible reward beyond what is occasionally thrown your way by DMs you have little practical to show for it. I am a firm believer of show don’t tell, if you have a mercenary faction and you have the men and are earning hundreds of thousands worth of fangs you should be able to purchase land, set down roots and establish yourself. Maybe you get rewards, you’re able to produce something from the land or you have access to a resource few other places do.

How I propose we might go about it, is to have an area or areas that are purchasable for a large sum, you pay a weekly tax which can be done via plugins or players taxing the area(ANPCs?). What you get for it is a place maybe a limited form of storage, or a merchant or resource exists within. Not only will this give people a tangible goal for their characters to work towards, and maintain but this will create organic conflict as other factions who want the area may try to undermine or oust the current landlords. This might take the form of going to the local lord, starting rumours or maybe in the extreme an all out war.

Right now there’s little to work towards without DM assistance, I cannot remove the problem entirely without suggesting mass DM hiring but I can suggest ways to alleviate some of it. To boil this thread down to its most simple aspect; trust players more and give them greater responsibility. They might surprise you.

Mission Statement: I understand trust can be a problem, but I find far worse than abuse of that trust is to not give it in the first place. Without that we might as well just write a book, cause you can tell those characters exactly how to behave.

[PrimetheGrime]

+1. I like the ideas mentioned here. Anything that enhances player driven story is a win-win to me. I would especially like to see the idea of servants of a dark-lord being allowed amongst the playerbase to really drive home the intimidation factor.

[LivingWasteland]

+1

[Phantasia]

This already happens in a very limited sense, you just don't see or hear about it so readily. And this has also been passed up upon, by a large part of the community various times, even recently. I've observed it over two characters.

To hand these roles out with more frequency only invites a great deal of variables that just can't be accounted for. Players change, and players vary vastly so. It would be ripe for abuse at the first mistake and shut down eventually. Much like the time limit was imposed on MPCs because a select few were clinging on to dear life for no real reason, and ruined it for everyone.

I fear this would just play out similarly.

[Hallvor Hadiya]

To hand these roles out with more frequency only invites a great deal of variables that just can't be accounted for. Players change, and players vary vastly so. It would be ripe for abuse at the first mistake and shut down eventually. Much like the time limit was imposed on MPCs because a select few were clinging on to dear life for no real reason, and ruined it for everyone.

This type of argument comes down to one thing, is the potential for abuse worth the potential for good. I believe it is, nothing worse than stripping something down just cause "we can't have a nice things", people will abuse this that's a fact. But others won't. And I think it is worth the effort.

So I'll say this with the same line of thought, should we have DMs cause that amount of power is ripe for abuse.

[PrimetheGrime]

This already happens in a very limited sense, you just don't see or hear about it so readily. And this has also been passed up upon, by a large part of the community various times, even recently. I've observed it over two characters.

To hand these roles out with more frequency only invites a great deal of variables that just can't be accounted for. Players change, and players vary vastly so. It would be ripe for abuse at the first mistake and shut down eventually. Much like the time limit was imposed on MPCs because a select few were clinging on to dear life for no real reason, and ruined it for everyone.

I fear this would just play out similarly.

I would counter this with the simple fact that the DMs can pull the plug on any abuse of power quick smart. Just as players vary, opinions and majority does as well. Whilst it does occur in a limited sense, I think it would be better if it was not so limited. Trust players to make smart decisions based on the individual rather than the group. If they muck it up, you have the choice to either guide them or pull the plug. The pros outweigh the cons in my opinion. Rather than shutting down the entire system like what has been done in the past, open it up and see if players can prove them wrong.

[Phantasia]

Just saying it how it is. You don't have a roleplay server without DMs (or admins) to offer some form of mediation, otherwise you just have a rampant server with no standards. They're going to exist whether you think that they're also ripe for the same abuse or not. And if we are on that same line of thought, adding more positions that have more powers than MPCs do just seems like opening the floodgates for more issues.

Conversely, yes, if you don't start trusting the playerbase then you just see the same people playing the same MPCs all over again, for example. However, placing that much weight on someone who has never touched an MPC before, if they were to even be accepted? There are people who are still intimidated to this day to try and apply for MPCs.

How many people do you think would even make it through such a stringent process if it was a cut above? Setting aside your biased view, take a long hard look at what you are suggesting here in the first place. Agree or don't, I've said about all I wanted to already.

[RickDeckard]

+1

[PrimetheGrime]

Just saying it how it is. You don't have a roleplay server without DMs to offer some form of mediation, otherwise you just have a rampant server with no standards. They're going to exist whether you think that they're also ripe for the same abuse or not. And if we are on that same line of thought, adding more positions that have more powers than MPCs do just seems like opening the floodgates for more issues.

Conversely, yes, if you don't start trusting the playerbase then you just see the same people playing the same MPCs all over again, for example. However, placing that much weight on someone who has never touched an MPC before, if they were to even be accepted? There are people who are still intimidated to this day to try and apply for MPCs.

How many people do you think would even make it through such a stringent process if it was a cut above? Setting aside your biased view, take a long hard look at what you are suggesting here in the first place. Agree or don't, I've said about all I wanted to already.

I have seen folk inexperienced and experienced accepted for MPC roles with differing levels of success and failure. I don't think for one second that such an app would be as gated as you believe. For one, the position in question is hypothetical for the moment, but if it were an option, I think there are many people who would consider applying for such a posting to give them a) something to do and b) giving other players something to do. DMs will always be required on the server, but when we have so few of them active (through no fault of their own, RL comes first always and everyone is due a break) We need to look at new opportunities to bring about player interaction-based story that doesn't rely so heavily on DMs. The less of that the more DM love that is spread around.

[Phantasia]

You already have that player interaction based story. It's up to you whether you value it more than from player to player, or from an (A)NPC to give you a sense of validation. I have had players pitch amazing plots to me that were wholly born from player inspiration, and had the same gravitas as if it came from a DM themselves. This is unneeded.

[Hallvor Hadiya]

How many people do you think would even make it through such a stringent process if it was a cut above? Setting aside your biased view, take a long hard look at what you are suggesting here in the first place. Agree or don't, I've said about all I wanted to already.

I cannot take aside my view; it touches everything I say. And so does yours, but I refer you back to the original post.

Without that we might as well just write a book, cause you can tell those characters exactly how to behave.

The far worse reality is no trust, a player base that is quickly outgrowing its handlers. And we already do the "cut above" with AMPCs, this is only an extension of already pre-established application and reviewal process. I trust the DMs to make these choices, and even if they sometimes make the wrong ones I trust its better than no choice at all.

[herkles]

In regards to Faction Housing, I think that is in the works. EO has mentioned he has been working on more rentable stuff on discord. He is best to chime in on that though.

[Phantasia]

The damage an (A)MPC can cause over your proposed (A)NPC idea pales vastly in comparison. While a "flavor of the week" monster can just die off without really doing any lasting damage, unless they were played extremely well, has no loose ends.

A player designated NPC can cause so much damage in such a short amount of time that retracting such a mess would take hours and hours of work. Even one bad egg can spiral a world of plots and interconnected narratives out of control. You should consider a wider view before rebuffing.

Addendum,

I am not against giving players increased responsibility at all. I just don't think this is the way to go about it. Sorry.

[Relapse]

I would like to see DMs promote players into these roles as part of their ongoing plot... in the mindset that Hallvor is proposing, especially if the players are in more antagonistic and opposing hero roles for world building but this creates a whole question of how you can support these players and will it ultimately lead to a better player experience overall.

[immasturgeon]

Played well it seems to me that character would and should be played in service to the server.

Similarly to AMPCs, which are exceedingly absent at the moment. Why? Because all of us, myself included, are entrenched and waiting for somebody else to do something as a service to the server so we can get involved in that story. I am unwilling to shelve my Vallaki based character in order to play an AMPC there. This is, IMO, the core of the problem. AMPC, ANPC, Dev, DM. The community, in general, isn't stepping up to the plate take on these roles in great enough numbers. We are wishing for somebody else to step up so we can have fun.

Before something like ANPC is implemented I'd like to see more frequent and successful use of the resources we already have at our disposal. Now that I've admonished myself I will reconsider shelving and revisiting, but I am not hopeful for the outcome of my revisiting. Just being honest.

[Phantasia]

Someone said it. It was another point I wanted to visit eventually. I'm sure a DM will chime in and disagree, but I don't see many (A)MPCs lately (especially those out of NCEs).

How can you have the step up without an interest in the first place to serve the community? With the tools we already have available?

You don't even have to be an (A)MPC to do it!

[PrimetheGrime]

The damage an (A)MPC can cause over your proposed (A)NPC idea pales vastly in comparison. While a "flavor of the week" monster can just die off without really doing any lasting damage, unless they were played extremely well, has no loose ends.

A player designated NPC can cause so much damage in such a short amount of time that retracting such a mess would take hours and hours of work. Even one bad egg can spiral a world of plots and interconnected narratives out of control. You should consider a wider view before rebuffing.

Addendum,

I am not against giving players increased responsibility at all. I just don't think this is the way to go about it. Sorry.

I'd like to take your words and throw them back at you. Having considered the wider view before replying, I hold to the belief that with the write guidance and set up, the ANPC would work as well as any AMPC without causing as big of a ruckus as you believe will occur. Furthermore, whilst "one bad egg can spoil the bunch", An individual should be judged on their own merits, not by what others have done. That's fundamentally flawed in thinking, from my point of view. Rather than worrying about a world of plots, let's instead focus on how it may weave into the narrative relatively seamlessly without interrupting current plots. If we were to take say,

The Fist of the Tyrant proposed ANPC as an example in say, Barovia, I would see that working similar to a bounty hunter but under the control of the big boss rather than the Garda, used for those deemed threats by the big boss himself. I would gate it of course, behind an application and set out a guide towards it before releasing such an idea, however. That's about as much as I can come up with at this moment, brains fried, etc.

I do agree, however that folk need to stand up and offer that service with the tools available. However, not everyone wants to play a monstrous PC. This might offer a good alternative.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Hi Halvor, I wanted to throw a few contrary opinions into the mix. This post isn't meant to troll but to respond to a few hangups I have which might be entirely my point of view but maybe not. Allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute here. I agree, in general, with the sentiment that trusting more players with more responsibility could in general improve the atmosphere on the server. At the same time, I realise that my immersion/sense of continuity is usually broken when I see a rulebreak occur and need to spend my time reporting it rather than RPing. I also realise there is an infrastructure (wall) toward providing that atmosphere: applications. They are not something I find pleasant, personally, and I do not think they should be considered the mark of a motivated or creative player, they're the mark of a player who likes to write applications, the motivation and creativity is always unique to them and the applications have little to do with it.

“I heard there’s something out in the mists”, “can we go see it”, “/t player name: Is a DM on/wants to do it?”, “/t player name: Nope”. “I feel the time is wrong for such things”

I haven't ever seen this, but I've only been here for a year. Since my requests for NPC interaction were all denied in the past, even with several other players interested, I never recommend others to attempt it anymore and I have my characters turn away from such plans to pursue other means. I would prefer to take initiative with people who are currently playing with me. Trusting ANPCs to do what DMs are too busy to do just seems like it compounds the problem.

That said, when offering others something to do, they may ask about my wording in Tells. I never delude them into thinking a DM is watching over our shoulders for the sake of providing us with something fun to do. They do not turn away, they continue to RP despite the fact they know that what I'm proposing will be something that we do just for the fun of it. Actually, most of the time I try to follow up on something a DM is doing, I notice I'm either too late or they were just doing flavour that night anyway without any intention of running a group encounter, quest segment, adventure, or whatever you might call it. I wouldn't want a DM to think I'm ignoring them, but sometimes I don't want to wander aimlessly for 25 minutes or more, confused about what I'm supposed to be doing to get involved in their plans, so when it comes to taking initiative, my method is always to seek out other players first when I'm feeling up to it.

This ANPC would focus on challenging the player base and its hostile elements, I’m not proposing we create a DM sanctioned ganker but something to remind people that they’re are greater forces out there, someone who might appear and send a message or put a horse head in someone’s bed as a warning. “Keep going down this path and see what happens.” And offer rewards for people who might turn on them, or make sure no one ever harbours them without dire consequences. “Players don’t fear the night, give them a reason other than the book says so”.

AMPCs already fulfill this role (the rules say they do not need to focus so much on story as providing atmosphere), they even have the store and @voice for the horse head and "Keep going down this path" thing.

Players do fear the night, and honestly I'm not sure if I want to play on a server where to make people fear the night, we up the spawns. People actually hang around in the outskirts at night more when there's stuff to kill. Making those threats more dangerous won't change anything, there will always be players who are up for any challenge no matter how impossible it is. If anything, it will bring more people into the night, because stronger enemies means higher CR enemies, which means they feed more XP.

Oh, and the thing about "make sure no one ever harbours them without dire consequences" -- I've seen the effects of isolation, perceived and absolute, on RP here and on other servers. It is not something I would ever encourage. I think it lends little to the authenticity of the experience and walls off RP more than it creates new options. EDIT: It's always up to the player to forge their own path, confining them and making the mere act of branching out to new friends a very real risk might be thrilling for a brief stint, maybe not so much forever. And look at what you'd really be doing here. You're just affecting how other players' characters view this one and now everyone wants to know why it's got to be such a huge risk just to be around them. Disempowerment, isolation, etc. might be main themes here, but providing obstacles to RP that can manifest in no-RP PvP, even if the incidence of something like that is supposedly low, is a high consequence for what is likely an inconsequential existence, such as what most characters on this server would lead if the DM's presence is what makes them substantial, as truly, such a presence is rare.

Right now there’s little to work towards without DM assistance

I disagree with this sentiment, including the "now" part. Ever since I started playing here about one year ago, I've noticed DM plots are more like backdrops on account of being spaced out over a very long period of time. Further, very little empowerment has come from them, in fact, it would appear that when a DM is around, someone can expect to die or confront unexpectedly very powerful NPCs and sometimes parties will even wipe. We have a thread here which says to expect this kind of thing.

Don't get me wrong, again, I like the idea that a player can initiate something and people can follow up or simply participate, but people are doing this every day, 9/10 times without a DM's help, without factions, without any of that, and because of the way conflict works here, it would appear that factions cause stagnation in conflict as they adopt a doctrine of avoidance (or even long periods of absence from the server) after one side or the other is unexpectedly trampled initially, which I have observed to be inevitable.

Problem Number 1; "If role-play happens and no DM is around to see it, does it make an impact?"

I assume this is humour or an intentional trap but I'm stepping into it for the sake of being a gadfly like I normally do. This question shouldn't ever have to be asked. It's an RP server. It would be really nice for DMs to post about every scheme we're brewing up, but the fact is, we likely spend 95% of our time without them watching. It is not their responsibility to show us the impact of our characters' words and deeds. It is our responsibility, on the other hand, to RP the impact of the experiences our characters have had. So, while a DM can enhance the moment, the weight of your decisions is likely to be noticed long before they even give you a chance to make them.

Ravenloft at its core is a story about the darklords,

Is it? They might be The Land but they're not the characters who are putting themselves out there and risking everything for a crumb of RP. It's my opinion that Darklords are worthy of our ignorance as they do not affect the day to day, and most of the time, the day to day is what we're dealing with here. I don't mean small talk, nor do I mean to call small talk an inconsequential or lesser form of RP. The dichotomy I'm trying to make is that if you're RPing with 5 players and 1 DM, or if you're RPing with 6 players, it's still 6 people in the end, and the interaction is no less valuable just because a DM didn't come in with a validation stamp.

[immasturgeon]

Also: In my previous post I don't mean the DM/Dev team isn't stepping up. They certainly are.

I meant the general player base is not "being the change."

[Phantasia]

Prime, I don't see how anything you just suggested differs from an (A)MPC specifically applied for to hunt down certain problem character(s) for X big bad mangs.

I wasn't referring to you as narrow visioned, as an aside.

[Alan Hunter]

Just saying it how it is. You don't have a roleplay server without DMs (or admins) to offer some form of mediation, otherwise you just have a rampant server with no standards. They're going to exist whether you think that they're also ripe for the same abuse or not. And if we are on that same line of thought, adding more positions that have more powers than MPCs do just seems like opening the floodgates for more issues.

Conversely, yes, if you don't start trusting the playerbase then you just see the same people playing the same MPCs all over again, for example. However, placing that much weight on someone who has never touched an MPC before, if they were to even be accepted? There are people who are still intimidated to this day to try and apply for MPCs.

How many people do you think would even make it through such a stringent process if it was a cut above? Setting aside your biased view, take a long hard look at what you are suggesting here in the first place. Agree or don't, I've said about all I wanted to already.

I can say with honesty in my years playing Ravenloft I have sent a many applications for both DM and A/MPC and never have onced really recieved and feedback or furthering of my applications. Try as I must I never had the oppurtunity to do so though those with lower time on the server than myself have. I have given up trying because of this.

In hindsight I do enjoy the original Posters suggestion as it gives more oppurtunity and points that more trust is needed with an ever growing community with NWN being prromoted once more to a new era. Having many of my roleplay events cut down due to a DM no longer interested or furthering another more promonant story has had a lot of my ztories on hold or simply ceased. This suggestion to offer a player with story assisting application is wonderful. But, having DM and run a few severs myself there is a risk. However no gain is with out risk. So this is definately some food for thought. I hope this is considered well both for the future and caution to come.

[APorg]

See, the issue with creating these ANPCs is that you may end up in the paradoxical situation of them having to create work to justify OOC their existence.  A "Hand of the Burgomaster" NPC should rarely be seen -- that's what the Vallaki Garda are for.  The problem is even sharper with with a "Fist of the Tyrant" NPC -- their appearance is almost always a plot point, a symbol of the Count's direct interest and involvement and a negative statement about how Strahd's local vassals have been handling matters.

95% to 99% of IC administration should fall on lower ranks, which PCs can achieve. The majority of the remainder are probably sufficiently non-urgent that they can be handled via forum exchanges if no DM is online; and for the small minority that is both urgent and important enough, surely that is precisely what a DM is for.

As to the issue of stomping PC faces into the mud, that is the role of AMPC/MPCs...

[Iridni Ren]

I agree largely with Phantasia's posts.

You start small and prove you can have an impact via the paths currently available. I've seen it happen on the server during my time here: players who did good jobs as AMPCs and faction leaders, remained dedicated to the server, and eventually moved into greater roles including perhaps DM.

I also think some talent has been missed and either discouraged or failed to be encouraged, lost interest and wandered away. That is an unfortunate risk in all creative endeavors in which varying personalities and artistic visions come into play.

Work on minimizing this loss is a worthy effort, but one I think best addressed through people skills, rather than needing further systems. We have many ways of contributing to the community currently, as long as we're willing to be flexible and pitch in where we're needed.

[StreetSamurai]

In regards to the poll you linked and the fist of the tyrant role: I feel Barovia doesn't feel especially tyrannical for us because the laws levied aren't laws intended for us, they're intended for their subjects. Most of us won't ever feel the sting of 1/4th of our gains stolen by the state or have a need to impersonate above our station. The guard certainly won't bother you nearly as bad either because we're infinitely more powerful than them and their levels are capped off due to RP EXP restrictions and they're functionally acting like wardens of a super max prison that has no one in their cells.

In fact, very few of us are directly interfering with his rule and we're all just fighting amongst all of ourselves. But it would definitely be cool to have AMPCs that aren't obvious monsters but are count agents working and doing their thing. If it's all-app based then it would ensure it's reviewed by people that know whether or not that player is a problem beforehand.

Right now the Count's brutal taxation for adventurers includes:

1 seasonal ticket that costs 25 gp or five minutes of your time to forge.

[loads flintlock with rebellious intent]

[FinalHeaven]

I'm not all that on board with the ANPC idea for various reasons already listed and because I think such things are fine in the hands of DMs.

I would very much like to see better support for Player Factions.  Whether this comes in the form of faction bases or something similar, I'd like to see more of it.  It's happened in the past and will likely happen again in regards to player factions intrinsically tied to ongoing DM plotlines, but I'd like to see it applied to other various factions that uphold the themes of the server and drive progress/roleplay through their actions in game.  POTM has an issue with a lack of world progression more than anything, IMO, and player factions can be a good driving force to help with that.