Balancing Paladins

[Alan Hunter]

Though not my strongest class reading over it for POTM I think a suggestion to remove or change some core feats and abilities is in order to balance paladins out to reflect the proper role play in Ravenloft POTM. Its just a suggestion but lets start with their immunity to fear. I think it should be replace with a bonus to save say maybe +4 as most people don't have the resolve or immunity to magical fear. Maybe make it a bonus to allies similar to their courage ability. And maybe change Divine health to a + 4 bonus vs disease and poisons given this is the realm of dread and their god isn't necessarily apparent in this world. I mean they already receive a bonus to saving throws given their Divine Grace ability adding Charisma modifier as a bonus.

Also we should remove magic weapon and dispel from paladins. It just doesn't seem to fit the theme and those seem more like mage spells than paladin spells. Perhaps change magic weapon to something like Holy Weapon were their dieties favored weal on is imbued offering similar to magic weapon but offering a dmg buff like flame weapon but with positive on top of a bless weapon. Dispel should be diffrent I thin Banish would be more akin to the roleplay of a paladin than casting dispel. Maybe greater dispel replaced with planar binding sounds more appropriate.

What do you folks think?

[foxtale]

Paladins are fine by me.

Their Alignment prevents them from doing anything fun with their sizeable power.

And if you are the Antagonist yourself, you can span a web of lies around their psychology easily enough to prevent being on the receiving end. Don't underestimate what RP restrictions they face in exchange for the might they possess.

[Confused Warlock]

Their Alignment prevents them from doing anything fun with their sizeable power.

Yes, their aligment is a huge restriction in itself, considering how easy it is to fall in Ravenloft.

[Nemesis 24]

As has been with nearly all changes made to the server, those spells and abilities are as they are in the books in 3.5 for paladins.  As someone who 'has' played paladin a fair amount, I can tell you in some ways they're amazingly powerful, but they make up for that in some truly staggering weaknesses.

They are unable to multiclass, unless into a PRC, which is no sure thing and should not be ever counted upon.  As such, they are all but unable to detect.  On a server where stealth and detection is 'the' single most important meta, this is a crippling weakness that no other class suffers from quite as severely.

They are powerful, but to use that power?  That is a crucial thing to consider.  A paladin who uses their abilities without restraint in any situation will fall for it.  This is all but guaranteed.  Reckless use of power will see it removed and getting it back is nearly impossible, without many months of work.

Limited spell slots means some rather crucial balancing issues.  Due to no stat items, a huge core stat split, a paladin can generally expect to have 3 of each spell slot at lvl 20.  They don't even get a second lvl 3 slot until lvl 17, and a second level 4 slot until 19.  This generally mean more than a year of invested effort, even without enchanting gear.  So, before that, they get a single spell for greater magic weapon - hardly a game changer by any stretch.  Until 17 level, a paladin at best lightens the spell load of a friendly caster.  They can also become a fantastic utility caster by such spells as bless weapon, or sacred haven.  Again, however, they must make strong self sacrifices to do so.

This is without getting into what a paladin is like without buffs.  Without their buffs active, unable to detect, a paladin is in serious trouble if they are caught unawares.  If they have a code of honor where they cannot flee, even from an ambush?  Then they die for it.

The code that a paladin must adhere to, let alone lawful good, can be extremely punishing, resulting in the outright death of the character if they are caught in their decisions.  No other character class suffers from anything remotely like this.  So, mechanically - they've got some great stuff.  Is it better than some of the other abilities out there that classes get?  Monk spell resistance, druid poison immunity, barbarian rage?  Yes, and no.  Like most things, its situational.  Can't have all the eggs in one basket on one character.  Paladins have some great strengths - but there are weaknesses you can't overlook.



EDIT:  I should mention.  I in no way think paladins should be given detection to overcome their most glaring weakness.  They -must- have a critical one for how strong they are.  They can take a PRC to overcome that weakness, at costs in other places.  And as Arawn just said, marking a paladin as fallen is a crippling thing.  No fighter rebuilt, no feat changes - you can't use a single paladin ability and none of your extraordinary abilities work.  Its pretty harsh, and rightly so.

[Arawn]

With the introduction of the ability to mark paladins as Fallen, we believe they are in a good place and do not immediately intend to revisit their balance.

[Alan Hunter]

Never considered their roleplay to be a weakness. So unlike other classes how is this represented and made known to a player who decides to go paladin and not for the mechanical reasons?

Seems code or not its roleplay. How are they penalized? Is there a scrpit or mechanic unseen? Is it dm controlled? Though I get it in roleplay what all prevents the paladin player from retreating a fight with the rogue and/or not using in game tools/varnishes/items from preventing this?

Don't paladins have items to improve spell slots? I seen more negative stat items then positive stat items couldn't  they go the enchanting route?

Compare to Necromancers whose summons in game are mechanically weaken how is roleplay a weakness in its self for paladins, minus the whole jefi order joke, strongly enforced?

Edit: Paladins being Marked how does that work? And since paladins aren't being revisited guess this topics done in a few. Any comments on my query be great.

[Nemesis 24]

When marked, all of a paladins abilities, every single one, no longer function.  They are at that point a very badly built fighter who has no bonus feats.  If they wish to level further, they must redeem themselves.

How do they fall?  By DM observation.  This can take place during everyday roleplay, during an event, or players can submit screenshots of others playing poorly for the team to investigate and act accordingly.  There is no automated alignment change aside from Voracious, and there is coming back from that as a paladin.

As for fleeing a fight, its oath dependent, the sort of paladin they are, the god they worship.  Cowardice is oath breaking.  It does not end well for a paladin.

As for spell slot items, paladins get the least out of the base casting classes- just the one.  Ranger, the next closest comparison, has four by contrast, three of which do not conflict.  Ranger does by the way have a much more powerful damage and stealth capability, and can wear an item that gives them another cast of the most dangerous combat class spell, bane bow.  Enchanting items does not overcome this.

The only weakness necromancer summons has is time.  Outside of combat they are with the necromancer for twenty four in game hours.  In combat they last two minutes with extension.  With all the necro feats, they can in fact be staggeringly dangerous.  They just cant be used so easily to solo dungeons, which they could otherwise easily be.  That serves no one but the greedy.

[StreetSamurai]

 If you had to give a charitable view of paladin and think of things that'd balance their strong combat capabilities beyond their code what do you think it could be, Alan?

[Alan Hunter]

If you had to give a charitable view of paladin and think of things that'd balance their strong combat capabilities beyond their code what do you think it could be, Alan?

Wow took me off gaurd on that one. Well to be charitable I'm not to knowledgable but looking over the wiki and aone things I think mechanically or role play wise allowing a paladin a domain power much like cleric but in the singular as their devotion differs from clerics.

I admit I do not know the overall imbalance mechanically this would provide. But, given the topic of roleplay for the paladin it would give an immersing roleplay aspect for the paladin id not give them a slight mechanical advantage based on their favor deity. I can see this being debatle but isnt overpowering as a item, which they have few of, or a feat which they have few of already.

Again this is more aesthetics and rolplay.

Hmm as for negatives, aside my current suggestion, some had commented in some of their devalue by the roleplay style of a paladin. Though instead of Fallen i dont see why a paladdin could not op to becoming a blackgaurd or a Corrupt avenger class which would give windows of negativity but oppurtunity to paladins who would fall.

[StreetSamurai]

They seem remarkably tough in an honorable duel but if we did look at the wiki I'm not seeing much utility personally. No ability to ninja-loot which is a good money maker, no ability to detect, and a 2+int skill choice which for the case of the paladin, a 10 int (for a total of 2-3 skills) isn't uncommon. They seem to excel in what they do, much in the same way you wouldn't expect a rogue to fight honorably unless you wanted that character to be a pancake.

They also get less feats then fighters with spells to make up the difference. Knowing this, would scaling back their spells still seem like a cash money move?

[Iridni Ren]

I 100 percent agree that paladins are where they should be when all considerations of the class are taken into account. Yes, the setting makes them very powerful mechanically, but the setting also prescribes and restricts their behavior greatly with devastating consequences for failing.

In balance discussions it's always preferable to look at the entire picture. If you choose to play a paladin, you're giving up a lot for those mechanical advantages.

[Alan Hunter]

What all is the entirety of paladins? It seems in employability of paladins its more through roleplay concerns than mechanical. I won't disapprove the risk and lost they have but in comparison to other classes they benefit more mechanically not so much in the role play.

Mmm some rogues can be honorable that is also dependent in role play. As for scaling back their spells its more less scalling back and theme appropriate. I mean I could see a paladin of Mystra or Hala using the magic weapon spell not neccesarily every paladin. As for the dispel similiar though commonly I could see paladins using planar binding as to restraining evil and/or summoning allies of good align.

With there roleplay restrictions shouldn't Paladins be more of a class request than an open class? Mainly given the difficulty of their required role play?

[Iridni Ren]

With there roleplay restrictions shouldn't Paladins be more of a class request than an open class? Mainly given the difficulty of their required role play?

That's a reasonable question, but I mostly prefer open systems that punish those who violate the rules, rather than assuming players can't handle personal responsibility and freedom of choice.

Otherwise, the restrictions about allowing only LG alignment and no multiclassing are big.

And mechanically they do have skill limitations that are significant.

[Alan Hunter]

Why are paladins only LG and not LN or Le?

What kind of slill limitations? I mean for such a craft parry and spellcraft is viable. Tumble is in Respects since th3 class does not gain it. Is it because of their lower skill bonus? I mean other than prc classes what classed could a paladin be able to cross class? And why implement a roleplay reason to not multi class?

[EO]

With the introduction of the ability to mark paladins as Fallen, we believe they are in a good place and do not immediately intend to revisit their balance.

[Nemesis 24]

-No base class is going to be made 'request only' because if one is they all will be.

-No LE or LN paladins because they dont exist in the Ravenloft core rulebook, and the LG only is extremely important in the Ravenloft setting for a variety of reasons we shouldnt discuss openly.

-With skills they have almost no class skills available.  They have a tiny amount of skill points and most are cross class, costing two points.  No detection skills, parry is meaningless unless you have 14 int, which means you are weakened elsewhere.  Even if you do have 14 int, most skills are still cross class.  Just a few core combat skills are available, such as discipline, concentration, heal, influence, antagonise and parry.

-As EO and Arawn said.  Class is where the dev team wants it.

[zDark Shadowz]

Paladins are just fighters that use spells instead of feats if it weren't for the cleric turning abilities.

Temporary powers that must be used in moderation and never for their own benefit, and require more attribute allocations in an even spread to acquire most of what they can use. Very difficult to build without introducing a structural flaw of one kind or another.

It's self imposed hard mode. Some people like the challenge, the ideals and the roleplay, and their powers are far more restricted than what you see on the sheet.

[PrimetheGrime]

I think just about everyone is in agreement that Paladins are in a good place and don't require any tweaking. Whilst mechanically strong, they are easily fallable if you know how to do it and are bound by their strict codes. As for removing magic weapon and dispel, no I don't think so purely because there are a variety of deities paladins worship, some are arcane deities. It fits. Paladins are strong front liners, but many classes are. Immunity to fear couples in with the paladins core being. Not being fearless, but not forced to flee or be afraid by sn enemy, as one would expect from what is essentially a holy soldier. LG because 3.5e and general Ravenloft core books as Nemesis mentioned. Lack of skill points makes up for a good deal of their power, as do their small amount of spells to cast. The devs have done a good job making paladin fun and playable without (imo) being horrendously OP. Better to leave them be. Either way, I think the threads run it's course.

[Kamfrenchie]

When marked, all of a paladins abilities, every single one, no longer function.  They are at that point a very badly built fighter who has no bonus feats.  If they wish to level further, they must redeem themselves.

How do they fall?  By DM observation.  This can take place during everyday roleplay, during an event, or players can submit screenshots of others playing poorly for the team to investigate and act accordingly.  There is no automated alignment change aside from Voracious, and there is coming back from that as a paladin.

As for fleeing a fight, its oath dependent, the sort of paladin they are, the god they worship.  Cowardice is oath breaking.  It does not end well for a paladin.

As for spell slot items, paladins get the least out of the base casting classes- just the one.  Ranger, the next closest comparison, has four by contrast, three of which do not conflict.  Ranger does by the way have a much more powerful damage and stealth capability, and can wear an item that gives them another cast of the most dangerous combat class spell, bane bow.  Enchanting items does not overcome this.

The only weakness necromancer summons has is time.  Outside of combat they are with the necromancer for twenty four in game hours.  In combat they last two minutes with extension.  With all the necro feats, they can in fact be staggeringly dangerous.  They just cant be used so easily to solo dungeons, which they could otherwise easily be.  That serves no one but the greedy.

I think the last part of your post was meant for another topic

[Nemesis 24]

It was reply to the OP's comparison of necromantic summons.  I just didnt link it directly.  But it was a rather apples to oranges comparison.

[Alan Hunter]

Less of an Apples to Oranges and more to a similiarity in roleplay circumstances between the two. Either way the staff and veterans have spoken. Don't see much else to go forward on this since this is predetermined.