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Author Topic: Improved Antagonize  (Read 3846 times)

Ken14

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Improved Antagonize
« on: December 07, 2019, 06:53:27 AM »
Antagonize is meant to represent intimidation, right?


So I wondered: why isn't there any feats surrounding this ability to improve the sheer otency of how it rattles people?

Like, for example, an ability that you can use several times per day that can do a deficit of up to 10 AC, and perhaps an increased spell failure chance of 100% for 6 rounds? At the cost of needing to overcome an increased DC?

Just a thought!

Perhaps the feat could be given automatically to a fighter who gets 12 levels of fighter?

Anyway, just a haphazard suggestion!

Chabxxu

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2019, 07:41:40 AM »
I am not sure if this is a serious suggestion or not, considering how broken and overpowered a 100% spell failure check would be. And thats without talking about the 10 AC. Antagonize is already super strong right now, and very undervalued by many people here.

Try it, use it, and you’ll see how good it is. It clearly doesn’t need a buff, especially not one like that.

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2019, 09:34:03 AM »
It's fairly strong in its current form, and from a design stand point, introducing feats without some sort of official PHB backing opens the fllod gates.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2019, 09:54:20 AM »
Taunt represents the "angering people into letting their guard down" thing, which is where the AC comes in. I think if we were to do intimidation with it we could use an ability that lowers the enemy's AB in the same way. It would become a fantastic party synergy & defensive option.

Your suggestion that Fighter gets it free gave me another idea. Something like epic reputation at a certain level of Fighter where you automatically get some Influence and Antagonize points.

For the first thing I posted, speaking of the PHB:

Demoralize Opponent: You can also use Intimidate to weaken an opponent's resolve in combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target's modified level check (see above). If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you.

I don't know if I would make it a 1 round duration, maybe 5 rounds since that's how long Taunt lasts.
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Ken14

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2019, 11:42:55 AM »
To be clear, the 100% spell failure and 10 AC loss was an example. I wasn't saying 'this is perfectly fine'.

Essentially, I'm saying, why not expand on the base Antagonize skill?

I like Sardine's suggestion, though!

TheFury

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2019, 12:55:27 PM »
We've discussed the shaken condition before, specifically with regard to Terrifying Rage (which does a lot like what sardine is suggesting) and it was stated that giving players a "fear" effect of sorts isn't setting appropriate.

Taunt is fantastic. Yeah, it has diminishing returns, but most do. Spell failure and that much of an AC penalty is already plenty.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2019, 01:16:30 PM »
I searched for "Terrifying Rage" and "Shaken" but no results came up.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong--what makes scary things inappropriate to a setting that's all about scary things? Players already have Fear, Scare, Doom/Circle, etc. so that sort of precedent is confusing to me. Caliban, Evil, and Monstrous characters at their best are also supposed to be centered around horrifying elements of the setting.
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Alan Hunter

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2019, 02:55:23 PM »
Appropriately good suggestions. As it stands yah Terrifying Rage was removed to avoid giving players a fear like ability. But improving upon the skill seems interesting given parry and tumble grant extra AC as it is you consider each maxed out gives +5 with out buffs and gear, etc. And Taunting almost gives a -6 and enhance feature to counter that and the magical buffs and, gear, and enchanting Ac you get would be a counter to such higher uneasily obtainable Ac. Even so adding a diverse set of negatives would be cool considering the versatility of how Intimidating or Antagonizing your opponent could be beneficial in a fight.

For example:

Feat: Mocking
Requirements: 5 Persuasion, 10 Antagonize
Description: Insulting the opponent you demoralize them by making them fall prey to your insults. Whether it was a cynical intellectual insult or out right talking about their mother they seem more or less intimidated and enraged dropping their guard further against you. This applies a -2 Ab to your opponents attacks for the duration of your Taunt lowering their efficiency to battle you as you insult them on the go. Bard's receive this feat at level five given their cunning and bardic silver tongues as well as those Barbarians who uncivilized means of warfare are prone to insulting their opponents in battle.

Another example:

Feat: Distractive Offensives
Requirement: 5 Persuasion, 10 Antagonize, Mocking
Description: Taking further into your repertoire of devaluing behavior you now not only use words but shout and use obscene gestures to distract your opponent. While this provides an attack of opportunity against you if successful further demoralizes your opponent drawing away their attentions to you. This causes the opponent to suffer an increase spell failure +10% from the 20% from Antagonizing, further with Mocking included when you perform this action you draw the attention of all hostile enemies to you when those that fail the Discipline Check vs Antagonize.


Yet another Example:

Feat: Intimidating Presence
Requirements: 20 Antagonize, (Starter feat that encourages intimidation), Mocking, Distractive Offenses
Description: Having been a demoralizing, unsavory, and rude individual most your life you really don't care who or what opposes you. Just the fact they even think they can oppose you boils your blood making you meaner and angrier than usual but woe to the fool who stands against you. You suffer a -2 to Will Saves for your impudent rage but your opponent is so beguiled by your intimidating presence when afflicted by it they suffer a -2 to Parry/Discipline/Tumble against you unnerved beyond belief. If this is used upon an opponent Near Death, similar to Warding Gesture, the opponent makes Make a Will Save DC: 1/2 Player Level + 1/2 Antagonize and the individual fees from combat as if routed.


I hope these suggestions help and offer some insight. Hope I don't offend anyone or aggro anyone on these examples they are just examples after all.
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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2019, 06:14:15 PM »
I consider antagonize already a tier 1 skill, I find it strange that anyone would think it needs enhancement, also consider taunt isn't traditionally a fighter skill so I think the skill itself is fine.

As mentioned in other threads i'm all for more feats, especially ones fighters can take advantage of. I dont think skills should be a prerequisite for feats as suggested above, it all just plays into the skills hoarding meta and encourages people to take rogue levels/bard levels etc. My view is you should create an awesome feats that requires 4 feat prerequistes where others classes will be put off but is nothing for a fighter because they have a million feats to take.

Hypatia

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2019, 06:33:15 PM »
Taunt is awesome. You can get your AC to the moon in this game, and taunt is the only thing that gives us lowly fighters any hope of competing against OP spell/tanks who can easily get their damage, AB and AC waaay higher than a fighter. But here's an option for fighters and barbarians....

Feat: Shield breaker (or Overbearing, or Bullrush?)
Requirements: Fighter / Barbarian 12, 10 Antagonize, Strength 14
Description: A fighter or barbarian uses brute strength and their intimidating presence to overbear an opponents defenses in battle. Instead of Charisma, the character uses her Strength modifier when making taunt checks.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 06:35:15 PM by Hypatia »

Elyan

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2019, 06:43:49 PM »
While some of these ideas are interesting taunt is already a powerful skill, not only that but Barbarians are a really strong class on the server. I don't think feats of any kind that would ultimately buff them is appropriate considering they outshine most other melee classes when built correctly. If they used their strength modifier for taunt they'd destroy everyone worse than they already do.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2019, 06:58:38 PM »
I have a controversial suggestion.


Why not implement a feat tree for Antagonize, and a feat tree for Concentration to counter Antagonize? AKA, say you can give someone the ability to increase the AC decreased by Antagonize by two more, and to give them a minor AB debuff, and a slight increase to the percentage chance for spell failure, and give a Concentration feat tree which does the exact opposite, mitigating the AC decreased by two, mitigating the AB debuff entirely, and mitigating the different of the percentage chance for spell failure.

AKA:

Quote
     Feat: Improved Antagonize
           - Adds -2 AC to the total result of a Taunt roll ( -1 to AC becomes a -3, a -6 becomes a -8)
           - Adds a -2 AB Debuff to the target if successful
           - Adds an additional 20% spell failure chance, raising it from 30% to 50%


Quote
     Feat: Improved Concentration
           - When taunted, reduces the total AC mitigation by -2 to a maximum possible of -0.
           - Mitigates the -2 AB debuff of Improved Antagonize
           - Mitigates 20% of spell failure chance when affected by a successful taunt, to 10% if taunted by standard antagonize, or the original 30% if taunted by Improved Antagonize.


What this does in the end is add more room for say, Fighters to shine, and adds more diversity to the feat pool while still addressing the possibility of improving upon the Antagonize skill, while adding a hard counter to it in the system. Many classes are already stretched for feats on the server, meaning that classes like Fighter will gain some significant advantage in their feat diversity by including this feat, and it adds a feat tax to other classes who try to remain more combat-oriented than a traditional fighter, and in many cases, are still better than they are.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 07:13:55 PM by BraveSirRobin »

Nemesis 24

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2019, 07:51:28 PM »
Another massively overpowered suggestion?  This must be a day ending in 'Y'.

As stated, Barbarian is immensely strong already.  It doesn't need another buff.  It just doesn't.  Stop fishing for one, and consider how you've built them instead.

100% spell failure and 10 ac loss for a class skill investment is ludicrous.  Its already a go to skill because its so strong.  That sort of degree of power is surely a joke, and would render numerous boss encounters obsolete.  Absolutely set against such an absurd proposition.

Some alterations which are fighter locked are perhaps worth considering.  But they should compliment in other fields, rather than making the feat stronger.

APorg

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2019, 08:10:53 PM »
Another massively overpowered suggestion?  This must be a day ending in 'Y'.

+1
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Khornite

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2019, 11:01:08 PM »
Antagonize is in a decent spot where it is, I think. Maybe add in some more gear that gives bonuses to it that don't have massive penalties could help. Antagonize being used against mages is at a bit of a disadvantage when you consider how easy it can be to find concentration gear.
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Nemesis 24

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2019, 12:02:34 AM »
Antagonize is in a decent spot where it is, I think. Maybe add in some more gear that gives bonuses to it that don't have massive penalties could help. Antagonize being used against mages is at a bit of a disadvantage when you consider how easy it can be to find concentration gear.

At late game it is possible to enchant items that grant antagonise for a truly tremendous boost to the skill.  That's probably why.

Chabxxu

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2019, 12:21:53 AM »
Antagonize is in a decent spot where it is, I think. Maybe add in some more gear that gives bonuses to it that don't have massive penalties could help. Antagonize being used against mages is at a bit of a disadvantage when you consider how easy it can be to find concentration gear.

I've seen people roll up 70 antagonize :) Mages will never be able to survive that. Just put some investment into it.

Elyan

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2019, 01:02:20 AM »
I've seen people roll up 70 antagonize :) Mages will never be able to survive that. Just put some investment into it.

+1, there's far more antagonize gear then concentration equipment as well. Anyone building for it with enchanted, crafted equipment can pretty much taunt anyone their level with ease. If anything more concentration gear should be added.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2019, 01:04:45 AM »
I had a fallen paladin with no feat investment whose Antagonize was comfortably into the 50's, rolling into the 70's with the right gear. That's why I suggested if we're going to add a feat or something, make there also a counter-feat for defense. The more diversity in the feat pool you can add, without tilting it too far in one direction or the other, helps cut down on universally powerful characters, while aiding classes like Fighter in shining more due to their versatility.

Relapse

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2019, 01:10:11 AM »
The more diversity in the feat pool you can add, without tilting it too far in one direction or the other, helps cut down on universally powerful characters, while aiding classes like Fighter in shining more due to their versatility.

Very true, though I dont think versatility is the only answer.. feats should be powerful and having more feats.. just like having more skills, should be seen as an asset.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2019, 01:15:33 AM »
The more diversity in the feat pool you can add, without tilting it too far in one direction or the other, helps cut down on universally powerful characters, while aiding classes like Fighter in shining more due to their versatility.

Very true, though I dont think versatility is the only answer.. feats should be powerful and having more feats.. just like having more skills, should be seen as an asset.


The trick is, to have feats that also have other feats that can help mitigate them. This means people will be willing to pay a feat tax and not invest in other feats, which for most classes which already outshine a fighter -- I.E., Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Ranger, etc, they will be forced to sacrifice for both feats if they're really concerned about antagonize. Or at the very least, will take the defensive feat to mitigate the effects of an Improved version, and to really help with the regular. This also means anyone who wants to antagonize runs the risk of bumping into people against whom it may not be effective, and become compelled to get the more improved version. And, even better, for participants who get either, it's the same deal as before. If you just throw more powerful combat feats in the pool without any way to counter them, it throws off the balance.

Ultimately, 'Fighters' have a lot of feats they can take, but compared to other classes, don't really have the wide breadth of options to spend them on short of a few weapon skill trees. Having a feat tree in the pool that is desireable by everyone, but a fighter can more shamelessly take it, means that it they catch up somewhat in terms of power.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2019, 01:22:29 AM »
Keep in mind a counter feat is purely going to be PvP based. 

On track record, the Dev's don't build feats or new content based on PvP.  They also prefer to go off whats in the books.  That's probably your two biggest stumbling blocks in creating 'counter' feats because taunting is exclusively performed by PC's, not NPC's.

Alan Hunter

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2019, 01:37:46 AM »
Another massively overpowered suggestion?  This must be a day ending in 'Y'.

+1

This must be a Joke ending Y, but Y not? Believe the original poster was looking into suggestions and even asked for examples. But given some of the posts and statements if we were to present something that would be in D&D or D20 Cannon it could be utilize correct? The suggestions made seem more in general than class specific. With so much knowledge of the Dev's and the system I'm surprise more people don't help in constructive idea building to these suggestions.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2019, 01:42:04 AM »
Keep in mind a counter feat is purely going to be PvP based. 

On track record, the Dev's don't build feats or new content based on PvP.  They also prefer to go off whats in the books.  That's probably your two biggest stumbling blocks in creating 'counter' feats because taunting is exclusively performed by PC's, not NPC's.



Antagonize as a PvE skill is a bit silly. There's pretty much nothing in the server that, at your appropriate level, that you cannot already hit reliably, and nobody is attempting to disrupt an NPC's spellcasting ability by applying the 30% SF chance from taunt. Antagonize is primarily used useful in PvP by any character that isn't PvP'ing via gank.


In addition, said NPCs could be given the 'counter' feats to make them able to be taunted, but to mitigate the effectiveness said taunt has against them, giving a PvE reason for the user to have the improved taunt feat. By that logic, taunt as a mechanic has no place on this server because the NPCs can't taunt you.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 01:43:47 AM by BraveSirRobin »

Nemesis 24

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Re: Improved Antagonize
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2019, 03:07:14 AM »
Keep in mind a counter feat is purely going to be PvP based. 

On track record, the Dev's don't build feats or new content based on PvP.  They also prefer to go off whats in the books.  That's probably your two biggest stumbling blocks in creating 'counter' feats because taunting is exclusively performed by PC's, not NPC's.



Antagonize as a PvE skill is a bit silly. There's pretty much nothing in the server that, at your appropriate level, that you cannot already hit reliably, and nobody is attempting to disrupt an NPC's spellcasting ability by applying the 30% SF chance from taunt. Antagonize is primarily used useful in PvP by any character that isn't PvP'ing via gank.


In addition, said NPCs could be given the 'counter' feats to make them able to be taunted, but to mitigate the effectiveness said taunt has against them, giving a PvE reason for the user to have the improved taunt feat. By that logic, taunt as a mechanic has no place on this server because the NPCs can't taunt you.

That's a (seemingly wilful) misappropriation.  Players have a multitude of tools that NPC's do not use.  Antagonise/Taunt is one of them.  I am simply saying, the Dev's do not (and you can look at the record for this) make PvP based feats a thing.  Stuff that works in PvE that also works in PvP?  Sure, absolutely.  But a specific counter-taunt based feat is purely for PvP only, short of restructuring most PvE NPC's.   Which admittedly, they'd have to do -anyway- if taunt became the sort of boss nuke that's been proposed. 



As for why there hasn't been more constructive additions to the thread, that is quite simple.  Antagonise and taunt is completely fine exactly where it is.  It has boosts to it in gear, its a difference maker in PvP, its fantastic for an off side DPS or tank in PvE, its not even remotely weak and does not need any sort of buff without having an extensive rebalance everywhere else.  If anything, I'd suggest a synergistic bonus for fighters, possibly charisma fighters or other such strange breeds via feats, to make them interesting, without changing the mechanics of taunt itself.

The same issue of power is easily said of Barbarian.  Barbarian had one of the strongest buffs in recent memory.  Its a fantastically powerful class, only made stronger by allies buffs.  It does not need to be made stronger again.  It has absolutely every tool at its disposal to be, and remain, at the top of the pile that it sits at.  Any effort to make it stronger is nothing less than simple, outright greed at this point and I'll call it out as such.  It does not need a buff, absolutely not.  There are far more important things to spend Dev time on.