Author Topic: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability  (Read 1176 times)

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2019, 05:34:04 AM »
That happens, I suppose, but it's a fault of the rule not being displayed in the journal or in a proper announcement on the forums more than anything. I don't see why the feat leads to badly impairing a body in the first place if the act of doing so is expressly prohibited. Should just have that bit scripted out to avoid the mistake.


..But we're probably slowly derailing this thread, that being said.

PrimetheGrime

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2019, 05:54:44 AM »
I agree that it should be removed to be honest. Since it's adding into one of the previous NCE's, it's had a near constant issue with it in some form or another. In NCE it was about making everyone into bugged corpses, now it's just turning them into skulls. It also offers a hefty power boost in strength and constitution. I personally think it's unnecessary.

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2019, 06:20:50 AM »
I agree that it should be removed to be honest. Since it's adding into one of the previous NCE's, it's had a near constant issue with it in some form or another. In NCE it was about making everyone into bugged corpses, now it's just turning them into skulls. It also offers a hefty power boost in strength and constitution. I personally think it's unnecessary.

Little Lotte

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2019, 10:06:36 AM »
I agree that it should be removed to be honest. Since it's adding into one of the previous NCE's, it's had a near constant issue with it in some form or another. In NCE it was about making everyone into bugged corpses, now it's just turning them into skulls. It also offers a hefty power boost in strength and constitution. I personally think it's unnecessary.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2019, 10:36:47 AM »
I disagree with this sentiment.

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2019, 11:11:08 AM »
The thematic domain of Voracious should have been left to the realm of Dark Power blessings/curses, but I imagine the feat is here to stay and likely won't easily be subjected to modifications based on public opinion, as indicated by a few suggestion/discussion threads lately.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2019, 11:53:50 AM »
The thematic domain of Voracious should have been left to the realm of Dark Power blessings/curses, but I imagine the feat is here to stay and likely won't easily be subjected to modifications based on public opinion, as indicated by a few suggestion/discussion threads lately.

It's a recent addition, and a single feat, so now is the best time to correct any mistakes made with its implementation. Moreover, the OP is advocating changes that would further build on it. So assuming your "reasoning by inertia" is correct, all the more reason to address problems with it now, before it becomes even more entrenched.

I disagree with this sentiment.

Your posts in this thread have generally indicated that you are not overly familiar with the feat, so the burden really is on you to make more of a supported argument than "I disagree."
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 11:56:20 AM by Iridni Ren »

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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2019, 12:09:12 PM »
This isnít really a thread designed to debate whether or not the feat deserves to be removed, itís a thread debating the merits of whether or not his suggestion should be implemented. A separate thread should be created to discuss the merits of removing the feat if that is everyoneís desire, and such thoughts may be conveyed there instead of burying the purpose of this thread under our combined, weightless debates.

That being said, Iíll leave my disagreement with the brief elaboration that the primary complaints regarding it seem to revolve around the way the feeding interacts with a corpse to potentially badly impair them. If thatís a large enough issue, they can correct that independently of removing the feat. Insofar as antagonistic roleplay is concerned, the stat buffs that come along with Voracious arenít particularly gamebreaking. In the long run the +2 CON and +2 STR bonuses are the difference of a few HP, 1 Fort save bonus, and +1 AB and +1 Damage (For STR-based melee) or just +1 Damage for DEX-based melee.

I disagree with the notion that playing a controversial or antagonistic PC should be exclusively relegated to the realms of DPís and (a)MPC applications. I believe this offers new narrative opportunities, especially for Caliban and the like who would reasonably be cannibals.

Whomsoever takes this feat is subjecting themselves to the same treatment open necromancers, red wizards, Blackguards and Banites get on this server which is complete and total annihilation by the masses if they remain among them. In my humble opinion, they can have the 1 AB and 10 HP. Theyíre gonna need it.

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2019, 03:54:32 PM »
I won't touch on the thematic considerations presented above, but perhaps we could make a remedy for cases of accidentally badly impairing a PC. Maybe a yellow text warning when said corpse is at the threshhold of being badly impaired with a reminder about PvP rules or simply removing the capability to Badly Impair corpses with it?

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2019, 05:13:18 PM »
It does warn you if a corpse is about to be to impaired. I tested it on a poor gnome and found that it takes sometime for it to happen. I managed to get a few weeks (In game Mechanic) of buff off of it without imparing it.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2019, 06:12:37 PM »
I never impaired or badly impaired a corpse on Sus with it. You just watch your stats and stop when they turn green from the buff--which does take a few chews...and earns lots of evil points :D

Although I generally ate NPCs, based on my occasional experience with PCs, I would judge any corpse impairing that occurs as intentional.

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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2019, 12:35:51 AM »
It does warn you if a corpse is about to be to impaired. I tested it on a poor gnome and found that it takes sometime for it to happen. I managed to get a few weeks (In game Mechanic) of buff off of it without imparing it.

So, the accidental badly impairing isn't even an issue, then, unless said player is ignoring the warnings. Well, anyways, we should probably get back to the substance of this thread and save the modifier/changes/removal discussion for a thread designed to revolve around it instead of hijacking OP's thread.

In that spirit, how do we consider the current suvivability of the feat, for the kind of heat it will attract once revealed?

PrimetheGrime

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2019, 06:11:28 AM »
Ok, back on topic then. I don't think that another update to voracious is required for either roleplay or survivability. Especially not one that takes away the elements of what the feat is. Whilst I've heard multiple explanations of how the feat works, It in essence is forgoing your humanity in exchange for dark gifts. You aren't meant to be able to just have a snack whenever, nor use regular food ever again because delving into such inhumanity as to not only eat of another humanoid but to also discover a secret way to increase your own power by doing so it no mere cannibalism and should not be seen as such. What you are meant to be doing is partaking in depraved and morally evil temptations in order to glean power from the fallen humanoid you're eating, it's not exactly meant to be something you just do in the space of say, a minute. I am against the idea of having rations added into the game separately because that would lead to people just making cannibal rations which they'd snack on when they please. that is not what Voracious is. You're drawing strength and dark power from eating the flesh of another. Which is why the alignment is immediately plummeted down to chaotic evil, because the action itself is one that only those with dark madness would use or discover. I repeat: This is not just a regular cannibalism feat. Now, if we were to look into more Roleplay-like variations of cannibalism in general with the same concept as Voracious, sure, but certainly not with it's level of stat increase. Perhaps one that gives you a temporary bonus, something a monstrous character might be able to use, but not all the time.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2019, 08:56:25 AM »

So, the accidental badly impairing isn't even an issue, then, unless said player is ignoring the warnings. Well, anyways, we should probably get back to the substance of this thread and save the modifier/changes/removal discussion for a thread designed to revolve around it instead of hijacking OP's thread.

In that spirit, how do we consider the current suvivability of the feat, for the kind of heat it will attract once revealed?

The buff is quite strong, and taking it is supposed to carry with it risks. Nevertheless, it is currently very easy to survive with the feat...if the possessor is discreet about its use. Sus had it for most of the time the feat has been available. During that time, three PCs knew of her secret, but she made certain that they were PCs unlikely to reveal it.

Otherwise, she was very careful, doing her dining behind closed doors and when she was fairly certain she was not being observed.

It does not need any enhancements to make possessing it more survivable.

As for "hijacking the thread," the original poster wrote:

True enough. So I hate to impose but could you help me with this? Not just the feat and suggestion but improving our Ravenloft to the days when we ran like children under covers and the scare was real?  :)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 08:57:57 AM by Iridni Ren »

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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2019, 06:31:16 AM »

So, the accidental badly impairing isn't even an issue, then, unless said player is ignoring the warnings. Well, anyways, we should probably get back to the substance of this thread and save the modifier/changes/removal discussion for a thread designed to revolve around it instead of hijacking OP's thread.

In that spirit, how do we consider the current suvivability of the feat, for the kind of heat it will attract once revealed?

The buff is quite strong, and taking it is supposed to carry with it risks. Nevertheless, it is currently very easy to survive with the feat...if the possessor is discreet about its use. Sus had it for most of the time the feat has been available. During that time, three PCs knew of her secret, but she made certain that they were PCs unlikely to reveal it.

Otherwise, she was very careful, doing her dining behind closed doors and when she was fairly certain she was not being observed.

It does not need any enhancements to make possessing it more survivable.

As for "hijacking the thread," the original poster wrote:

True enough. So I hate to impose but could you help me with this? Not just the feat and suggestion but improving our Ravenloft to the days when we ran like children under covers and the scare was real?  :)

I wouldn't presume to know everything Suspiria got up to during her time around the server. However, I would say with a reasonable assumption that the STR/CON bonus didn't make or break Suspiria as a character for her survival, or make her especially overpowered. The fact she barely told anyone, and kept it a secret doesn't necessarily reflect on your average Voracious user, and it also means in terms of Gothic Horror, very few people experienced the facet of cannibalism that it the feat is intended to portray, making the point moot. You've taken low risk, but in turn, you've not really achieved much with it.

The point of offering boons with the feat is to encourage people to pursue it. To give people a reason to actually want to do something that is likely to see their character chased by a lynch mob, for all but a select few, veteran members of the community who are willing to do things just for the hell of it and don't care. That's not who this is advertised to, and it's also not who it's necessarily benefiting the end.

If you can explain to me and convince me how the +1 STR +1 CON enhancement bonus is too much of a pro, for the con that is being extremely controversial and antagonistic by devouring the dead bodies of other players, in an objective manner, I'll concede your point. I'm of the mindset it generates diversity and conflict where some players really wouldn't bother, usually in a manner more open than private dining. It dangles the carrot of power, in exchange for depravity. It's classic Gothic Horror in that regard.

PrimetheGrime

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2019, 09:38:31 AM »

So, the accidental badly impairing isn't even an issue, then, unless said player is ignoring the warnings. Well, anyways, we should probably get back to the substance of this thread and save the modifier/changes/removal discussion for a thread designed to revolve around it instead of hijacking OP's thread.

In that spirit, how do we consider the current suvivability of the feat, for the kind of heat it will attract once revealed?

The buff is quite strong, and taking it is supposed to carry with it risks. Nevertheless, it is currently very easy to survive with the feat...if the possessor is discreet about its use. Sus had it for most of the time the feat has been available. During that time, three PCs knew of her secret, but she made certain that they were PCs unlikely to reveal it.

Otherwise, she was very careful, doing her dining behind closed doors and when she was fairly certain she was not being observed.

It does not need any enhancements to make possessing it more survivable.

As for "hijacking the thread," the original poster wrote:

True enough. So I hate to impose but could you help me with this? Not just the feat and suggestion but improving our Ravenloft to the days when we ran like children under covers and the scare was real?  :)

I wouldn't presume to know everything Suspiria got up to during her time around the server. However, I would say with a reasonable assumption that the STR/CON bonus didn't make or break Suspiria as a character for her survival, or make her especially overpowered. The fact she barely told anyone, and kept it a secret doesn't necessarily reflect on your average Voracious user, and it also means in terms of Gothic Horror, very few people experienced the facet of cannibalism that it the feat is intended to portray, making the point moot. You've taken low risk, but in turn, you've not really achieved much with it.

The point of offering boons with the feat is to encourage people to pursue it. To give people a reason to actually want to do something that is likely to see their character chased by a lynch mob, for all but a select few, veteran members of the community who are willing to do things just for the hell of it and don't care. That's not who this is advertised to, and it's also not who it's necessarily benefiting the end.

If you can explain to me and convince me how the +1 STR +1 CON enhancement bonus is too much of a pro, for the con that is being extremely controversial and antagonistic by devouring the dead bodies of other players, in an objective manner, I'll concede your point. I'm of the mindset it generates diversity and conflict where some players really wouldn't bother, usually in a manner more open than private dining. It dangles the carrot of power, in exchange for depravity. It's classic Gothic Horror in that regard.

To begin with? It's +2 to STR and CON, not +1. Big difference, it lasts for a week and the eating process will heal you 1 point per level as if you've eaten a full meal, you can extend the duration just by eating, the con being they can no longer eat regular food to rest with and must eat humanoid flesh. As per the wiki:

Quote
Specifics: The character has discovered the mystical secret of how to steal a person's strength by devouring their corpse. By feeding upon the dead, the character becomes stronger and tougher, and heals wounds at a much faster rate. Sometimes, discovering the secret requires much deliberate research; sometimes, it is discovered accidentally in a moment of desperation and need. When the character eats the required amount of flesh from the corpse of a humanoid (5 pounds for a small creature, 20 pounds for a medium creature), he gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for a duration of one week. The character also heals one hit point per level as though he had rested after a full meal. Eating more than once during this period extends the duration but does not increase the bonus. The character no longer gains nutrition from regular food and no longer recovers hit points when resting from eating.
Use: Selected.
Special: Any character may take this feat, but non-evil characters will find their alignments quickly twisting into evil if they use it.

So yeah, it's got plenty of use and a lot of bang for your buck. Survivability? Check. Roleplay? Check. As far as controversial? Roleplay wise, perhaps, but there have been a slew of cannibals or man eaters about, even before this feat was implemented. Mechanics wise, the stats speak for themselves. A good deal of folk wont try anything against a voracious eater as well. Without naming names, I've seen known man eaters walk through zones unhindered by the other folk around them who usually just stare or glare so it really depends on who wants you dead if they see you being a cannibal, though it's easy enough to mask, what with the surplus of humanoid npcs about. In conclusion, many pros, few cons

Iridni Ren

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2019, 09:46:01 AM »
Yes, mistakes like thinking it's +1/+1 rather than +2/+2 are why I said earlier "your posts in this thread have generally indicated that you are not overly familiar with the feat" :)

As a point of comparison, Devs will almost certainly reject gear that gives even +1 to a stat. We count such bonuses as worthy of 2 ECL on races. And when I proposed this feat (likewise only a +1 to as single stat and available only to 20th level characters), many acted as though it was extravagantly over-powered.

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2019, 12:14:19 PM »
Ever since we started logging cases of Voracious users impairing characters about a year ago there have been around 25 cases of Voracious use leading to impairment; we added a warning in July as well so there's no way to accidentally eat someone.

There are no plans to adjust or change this feat at the moment since it works as intended. Like any other feat, we leave it to players to roleplay its use accordingly since we don't enforce any specific type of roleplay.

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2019, 05:55:53 PM »
Yes, mistakes like thinking it's +1/+1 rather than +2/+2 are why I said earlier "your posts in this thread have generally indicated that you are not overly familiar with the feat" :)

As a point of comparison, Devs will almost certainly reject gear that gives even +1 to a stat. We count such bonuses as worthy of 2 ECL on races. And when I proposed this feat (likewise only a +1 to as single stat and available only to 20th level characters), many acted as though it was extravagantly over-powered.


Youíre mistaking what that +1/+1 was referencing. I know itís a +2/+2, but I was referencing the modifiers, not the stat change. I know itís +2, but in effect it changes your modifiers by +1. I had a slip of the tongue because of how I think of it in my head, woe be to me for doing so, but I understand how the feat works.

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2019, 01:00:23 PM »
Right wow. Apologies for not speaking up lately. I figure I let it sit amd see what progress came up. I see a lot of negativity to this suggestion and a lot of complaints. My intentions isnt to start or antagonize anyone. But, a lot of people percieve this feat as high perk no cons which in my opinion isn't true. With out revealing my character I am one of the original five who took this feat when first offered and help EO test on various npc/monsters to ensure some werent missed or abused. In saying this i dont encoirage I know more simply I have a general idea. Some people been kind to direct me to related thread and did not know it was regulated as a pvp action with restrictions. Reading it I can see a players concern yet with the limit of sources, high risk, and personal experience there is a lot more risk than perk.

Clarifying yes Voracious users recieve a bump in 2 stats which is rare and is inposession of a roleplaying tool with a free buffering mechanic. Some other feats do similiar with class and or racial ability. For this advantagous buff, my bad guy package, I as a Voracious user have to contend with out being able to eat common food which your chatacter can die from not eating, less its been updated, after so many log in and days. Had that happen once in my old days.

In addition yes there arr options to eat non-players but as some stated it cheapens the feat. Yet you run the risk of auto recieving OCR increase rapidly for eating npcs who automatically discover you are evil. Even if you happen to eat the corpse fond dead by a Werewolf.

Testing on the old server you can literally have and OCR of 16 to 20 depending on your character after yer first npcs feeding. A con that seema few didn't consider in thia topic. This drastically changes the immersion and puts the player at a high risk inmediately making them a revealable threat. Those inexperienced of the feat and wishing to avoid pvp will find it very hard to reduce that OCR overtime as i have personally experienced that when Voracious was fairly new and the feat was explained and changed to make players more aware of this risk.

That said there is a lot of con to a buff which is appropriate. How its roleplayed depends on the imagination of the individual. For me it was a curse/boon inherited in the characters roleplay to get stronger. A character AMPC taught the character the boon and was documented.

As EO stated there may not be development for tgis feat. But, I just made the descision to suggest some expansion and role play advancements as it was discussed some time ago about expanding a food item the Voracious user would carry given the negative of poor resting recovery which is also a handicap of the feat.

As it is the feat was encouraged to promote interaction with players. But, now with the restriction of it being a provocation to pvp with out consent it limits the original choice of prey which makes the statement it cheapens the feat by consuming npcs mute as it makes it harder to get choice of prey. I have had encounters with down corpses I randomly find on travels and was ask by players to stop because of fear of impairing. So I did as thats the kind od plauer am and roll a will check to see if the character morally eats the corpse or saves it. Genarally given my new evil alignment I just leave the body, less its a damn 17 to 20, otherwise I discuss it with a player how they want to go.

The before being said. I think overall i have pvped once as rogue and alarmed a Dm/Developer because i was encouraged by a DM to act my alignment. So I set up a trap like a good evil rogue got some one and some one oocly got there buddies to rescue them and it turned to an ooc fiasco. Hence the dm who came in was alarmed cause they knew it was unlike me. But I had explain the reasons.

And yet its okay for the victor of the pvper to steal the fallen players equipment amd gold or corpse hide them but, its not okay to use a feat to impair them?

Examples aside. I spoken my opinion and suggestion. However I don't see many talks in improving the quality or expansion of this feat. If the forum operators feel it neccesarily to lock the topic after the next few conversations if there no suggested improcement they may do so. I'm  not seeing much prospering and I don't want to drag this topic on. So to anyone offended or didn't like the auggestion apologies for hurting your feelings not my intent to exasperate or exhaust you.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2019, 01:11:25 PM »
Testing on the old server you can literally have and OCR of 16 to 20 depending on your character after yer first npcs feeding. A con that seema few didn't consider in thia topic. This drastically changes the immersion and puts the player at a high risk inmediately making them a revealable threat. Those inexperienced of the feat and wishing to avoid pvp will find it very hard to reduce that OCR overtime as i have personally experienced that when Voracious was fairly new and the feat was explained and changed to make players more aware of this risk.

This would be if you did it around (living) NPCs?

Because Sus never received an OCR bump, but she also ate either in the locked Broken Bell Theatre or in caves after killing all the inhabitants.

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2019, 01:25:47 PM »
Fairly sure that corpse-hiding and impairing corpses are similar in terms of PvP escalation.  Certainly both are more serious than taking gold or fallen weapons from dead people, which don't actually count as PvP, as dead PCs' belongings are fair game.
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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2019, 01:43:14 PM »
Hunger does not, and as far as I know has not ever, had an effect on anything except the health you regain from resting, even as far back as 2009. If you died from resting, it was likely a con buff that wore off leaving you in the negatives.
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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2019, 11:59:18 AM »
Fairly sure that corpse-hiding and impairing corpses are similar in terms of PvP escalation.  Certainly both are more serious than taking gold or fallen weapons from dead people, which don't actually count as PvP, as dead PCs' belongings are fair game.

Key phrase. Dead Pcs are fair game. So in a way how is it escalating impairing the body when a critical hit or damage beyond th pcs negstive hp is beyond threshold? Just as purposefully one goes to take the coin or weapon of a player due to thier death why is it against the rules to consume that players to impairment? Both technically have rp reason yet a legitimate feat es disallowed yet its okay to theft some one. Which in a way is dis allowed base on the pick pocket and theft rules in a way. But, its all arguing semetics(sp) at this point.
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Alan Hunter

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Re: Updating Voracious roleplay and survivability
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2019, 12:11:08 PM »
Hunger does not, and as far as I know has not ever, had an effect on anything except the health you regain from resting, even as far back as 2009. If you died from resting, it was likely a con buff that wore off leaving you in the negatives.

Before this gen of chars and being on the forum. There was a time I played as lesser known. It was during the era when raising dead had a high chance of raising a zomby version and when you rested you were blind and deaf. When you needed to skin knife animals for hide. Alots changed since then. I admit maybe it was DM induced? It was during a time when things were more... hardcore for lack of terms and not as developed as it is now.
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