Bartering Table

[SardineTheAncestor]

We had a discussion a while ago about the trash barrels and how they're used (particularly in the Mist Camp, but also, sometimes in the Vallaki Vistani camp). Ultimately, we came to the expected conclusion that there wasn't really an issue with the way they are used, and if people tried to steal from a group that was using a trash barrel, conflict would have to spin up in a different way. It wouldn't be justification for PvP.

I don't think that solves the issue. No one wants shallow justification for PvP. In fact I have seen most players on this server avoid PvP whenever possible because it is generally a frustrating experience. Many players are willing to have confrontations which aren't based on mechanics alone.

This thread is not about begging stealthers with maxed out sleight of hand to please not steal my 4 pages of bronze armour that I pulled out of a dungeon with my mates who don't feel like filling a bunch of bags with them. This bag-filling method is actually more confusing than placing it in a nearby container, and spams the chat just as much, since every time you trade a bag, a message for every individual item in that bag is still sent. We were also told that taking matters into our own hands and building a barrel or crate right next to the merchant which is not primarily intended for refuse would be considered OOC behaviour/ignoring NPCs which is a rulebreak. And trading is just not ideal, it is very slow because of the game's dated UI, and all of it ends up in the recipient's inventory completely unsorted.


What this thread is about is getting a container which is primarily used for the act of bartering with the NPC in fully IC terms. People suggested this in the thread and unfortunately we did not get an official developer response, as other arguments were wordier and took up much of everyone's attention.

I personally like the aesthetic of a group of adventurers coming in and placing all their wares down on a table for the merchant to pore over and then come to an agreeable sum with them.

This could be represented quite easily with a table within mutual exchange range (close enough to interact with the merchant and the table at the same time).



Let's start with the Mist Camp Trader's Vardo. Here's a screenshot of what a container trader is doing (pretend I have friends and they're dropping items into the trash barrel rapidly).

That burlap looking rug behind Djordji almost looks like it's made for people to drop all their junk on it (another less convenient method than container trading). A generic desk container could be placed there with room to get in front of it and behind it, and it wouldn't be immersion breaking or anything like that. It would solve the problem of people having to build containers in the Trader's Vardo, and it would look a lot more IC. The idea is the party is going up to the table, leaving everything out on it for their price negotiator & the merchant to come to an agreement, then the deal is struck. The OOC imagery of using the table is less disruptive to this vision.

Please consider adding this, it would be a small change but highly convenient for the players who are out here trading hundreds of items per dungeon run. The loot was designed this way on purpose and I think it would be great to see the merchant areas evolve to become more convenient for players.

Thanks for reading.

[MAB77]

[...] It wouldn't be justification for PvP on its own, but confronting someone about it later and fighting them if they refuse to give back what they've taken would be acceptable.[...]

This is absolutely incorrect. If someone takes something from a trash barrel it is not justification for PvP period. Not then, nor later. You could ask for the return of said item in role play, but as long as that player opts out of PvP your are NOT ALLOWED to force PvP.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Even if they refuse to give it back, you're powerless to do anything? Alright, I'll edit the post then so as not to be misleading.

[Relapse]

I think a bartering or sorting table is a good suggestion. It's a great UX facilitator, it's unfortunate that showing an item to a group of players requires it dropped on the floor or chucked in the bin. 

[MAB77]

Player's already have the ability to build their own crates and barrels that can fulfill that fonction.

[Arawn]

Player's already have the ability to build their own crates and barrels that can fulfill that fonction.

As the player stated in the original post, constructing crates and barrels in a shop can be considered NPC-ignoring.

[Dante101]

Player's already have the ability to build their own crates and barrels that can fulfill that fonction.

As the player stated in the original post, constructing crates and barrels in a shop can be considered NPC-ignoring.

Why would said NPC care if a character made a temporary storage container like a small barrel to organize all the things they intend to sell them?

[SardineTheAncestor]

Sorry, I should have linked that and clarified, will update the post again.

EO stated that here (clicky) so this would be a great alternate solution, convenience without the rulebreaking, and plenty of IC justification. It'd be kind of like the fur trading table next to Petre, but without the special dialogue tied to it; the bartering player would still be doing the trading manually.

[MAB77]

I concede that point, yes. And I'm not against the idea. I can definitively see some shops where it is warranted. Though for mosts, players could simply spawn one outside said establishment and it would be a very short walk for them afterward.

[Agony]

I concede that point, yes. And I'm not against the idea. I can definitively see some shops where it is warranted. Though for mosts, players could simply spawn one outside said establishment and it would be a very short walk for them afterward.

I don't think the walk is the issue, so much as the inventory tetris often involved.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Yeah, depending on how much inventory space you have, the whole thing might even take multiple trips. If that were proposed as an official IC solution to getting around the awkwardness of dropping all our stuff on the floor or trading it all, one by one, to the bartering player, I'd do it, but I feel like Djordji would have a special table upon which massive deals could be laid out for examination, rather than dropped on his nice desk with his ledgers and such, so this would capture that better in my eyes.

[Arawn]

Player's already have the ability to build their own crates and barrels that can fulfill that fonction.

As the player stated in the original post, constructing crates and barrels in a shop can be considered NPC-ignoring.

Why would said NPC care if a character made a temporary storage container like a small barrel to organize all the things they intend to sell them?

They might. They might not. Depends on the NPC, the PC, the time, the place, and so on, and this is a determination that can only be made by a DM.

[Dante101]

Player's already have the ability to build their own crates and barrels that can fulfill that fonction.

As the player stated in the original post, constructing crates and barrels in a shop can be considered NPC-ignoring.

Why would said NPC care if a character made a temporary storage container like a small barrel to organize all the things they intend to sell them?

They might. They might not. Depends on the NPC, the PC, the time, the place, and so on, and this is a determination that can only be made by a DM.

Right, but that same statement could be made for every scripted NPC interaction (or lack thereof) on the server. DMs are rarely present to offer idle NPC emotes and reactions to adventuring parties - so there should be some expectation that certain activities wouldn't generate any sort of NPC reaction.

In this case, it's a merchant we're talking about - in this case, the MC trader in particular. So what is the DM determination on this, in general? It seems reasonable (to me) to assume the trader wouldn't care, so long as it's not destroying anything of theirs and they are earning business.

[Devil's Moon]

I imagine the point of ignoring NPCs being a rule is because NPCs are the realm of DMs and DMs can't always be there to possess them.
Which means players should make an effort not to take liberties in the interpretation of NPC behavior in their presence, beyond what the module itself provides (AI, dialogue, etc).

But I'm not sure if it's the intended topic of this thread.

[Arawn]

Player's already have the ability to build their own crates and barrels that can fulfill that fonction.

As the player stated in the original post, constructing crates and barrels in a shop can be considered NPC-ignoring.

Why would said NPC care if a character made a temporary storage container like a small barrel to organize all the things they intend to sell them?

They might. They might not. Depends on the NPC, the PC, the time, the place, and so on, and this is a determination that can only be made by a DM.

Right, but that same statement could be made for every scripted NPC interaction (or lack thereof) on the server. DMs are rarely present to offer idle NPC emotes and reactions to adventuring parties - so there should be some expectation that certain activities wouldn't generate any sort of NPC reaction.

In this case, it's a merchant we're talking about - in this case, the MC trader in particular. So what is the DM determination on this, in general? It seems reasonable (to me) to assume the trader wouldn't care, so long as it's not destroying anything of theirs and they are earning business.

If you want a hard ruling, then yes, it's NPC-ignoring. There is some nuance depending on the merchant or the place but to be safe, best avoid it altogether.

[Dante101]

Player's already have the ability to build their own crates and barrels that can fulfill that fonction.

As the player stated in the original post, constructing crates and barrels in a shop can be considered NPC-ignoring.

Why would said NPC care if a character made a temporary storage container like a small barrel to organize all the things they intend to sell them?

They might. They might not. Depends on the NPC, the PC, the time, the place, and so on, and this is a determination that can only be made by a DM.

Right, but that same statement could be made for every scripted NPC interaction (or lack thereof) on the server. DMs are rarely present to offer idle NPC emotes and reactions to adventuring parties - so there should be some expectation that certain activities wouldn't generate any sort of NPC reaction.

In this case, it's a merchant we're talking about - in this case, the MC trader in particular. So what is the DM determination on this, in general? It seems reasonable (to me) to assume the trader wouldn't care, so long as it's not destroying anything of theirs and they are earning business.

If you want a hard ruling, then yes, it's NPC-ignoring. There is some nuance depending on the merchant or the place but to be safe, best avoid it altogether.

So with that hard ruling - is the suggestion originally offered in this thread an option to get around that?

Or is the general consensus from the team going to be: "suck it up and live with it"?

[SardineTheAncestor]

Yeah, I was just hoping we could get something legitimate and supported which would completely remove the possibility of any of these issues ever coming up in the future, also it supports the RP rather than being an awkward game mechanic that needs to be handwaved.

[Arawn]

We’re happy to listen to suggestions, but we can’t promise any of them will be workable or implemented.

[Khornite]

So, I want to stress that I'm not trying to come off as rude here, but there's something about this whole discussion that is confusing me. Why is this such a complicated issue? The act of putting items in the trash so others can pull them out seems to be a rules accepted alternative already and is purely OOC motivated to overcome the fact that this game is pretty outdated and was never designed to be used the way it is today. I mean, wouldn't making a crate right there make more sense IC than dropping a ton of stuff into a bin filled with rotting food and other garbage? Wouldn't it just be easier to accept "Hey, this game is outdated and can be tricky to work with at times, please bear with me a minute while I put this crate down" in the same way we say that when people need to relog to fix a bug, or fix a keyboard issue, or are having trouble with their GUI? At the end of the day, it's a game, right? There's going to be problems that come from the fact that it's still just a game.

It's easy to say "No, I'm not whipping out the hammer and nails and building a crate right here on the floor, the box is designed to be broken down and put together very quickly" and that be it. You can just emote that the box is a few pieces of wood that are designed to connect together like some collapsible boxes you can find at Ikea or something. We already accept the fact that it takes weeks to make a suit of full plate in real life when a smithing PC can whip one up in seconds in game. So why can't we just give the same handwave in the name of putting a box on the floor?

[SardineTheAncestor]

I don't really find any of it disruptive -- we've got to get our items sold somehow. RPing in that merchant vardo is a chore that involves lots of scrolling up and down in the chat since so many items are sold per adventure cashout. Anything that gets us done with the spammy, tedious inventory tetris part of our adventure quicker and more conveniently so we can get back to RPing is good with me. Having witnessed people build crates and stuff in there before, I never thought it was all that ridiculous to just assume they are dragging the container in.

Regardless, that's the ruling we're given so we have to work with it, and so this follow-up thread was made.

In the name of anyone who gets their items stolen during this process where possibly hundreds of items are being juggled, I request the bartering table.

Aesthetically and functionally, I would also choose it over any other option. I think it'd settle all this, and look kinda nice chilling in the back there.

[Khornite]

I don't really find any of it disruptive -- we've got to get our items sold somehow. RPing in that merchant vardo is a chore that involves lots of scrolling up and down in the chat since so many items are sold per adventure cashout. Anything that gets us done with the spammy, tedious inventory tetris part of our adventure quicker and more conveniently so we can get back to RPing is good with me. Having witnessed people build crates and stuff in there before, I never thought it was all that ridiculous to just assume they are dragging the container in.

Regardless, that's the ruling we're given so we have to work with it, and so this follow-up thread was made.

In the name of anyone who gets their items stolen during this process where possibly hundreds of items are being juggled, I request the bartering table.

Aesthetically and functionally, I would also choose it over any other option. I think it'd settle all this, and look kinda nice chilling in the back there.

Or even just build the crate somewhere else and transfer the loot there if conflict with rules is an issue, I guess. I'm in favor of the bartering table, personally.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Just to throw my two cents in... I have never really experienced this issue, but I also don’t have any issues with the solution suggested here. If it will improve some players’ experience and is not overly burdensome to implement then I’m all for it.

[EO]

I'll add a table to the Mist Camp Trader and Murnu's, but it won't be generalized to every merchant, both for performance reasons and also because that'd just clutter those areas.

[zDark Shadowz]

Sincerely appreciated, thankyou EO.

[Hypatia]

It looks like this is solved, but I'm just curious; don't they have chests that you can pick up and set down that do the same thing as a crate? I swore I saw Annie doing this.

Maybe clothing makers should be able to create a "sack" that you can use like a crate, but that you can pick back up into your inventory?  Heck those things are in the players handbook and used to be a staple of adventuring gear. Surely no merchant will loose sleep when you set down your sack of loot to begin organizing for trade.