Author Topic: Monk Ki Strike Change  (Read 920 times)

nostalgicsamurai

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2019, 06:01:53 PM »
On the subject of ki strike, I have to say this: at the levels you get those feats, they are mostly fluff, because you're likely going to have other means to get your fists to pierce dr all on your own, be it gilded gauntlets, enchanted gauntlets at lvl 14+, or varnishes. If you did get at least ki strike +1 at a lower level, that would be much more useful.

Cassius

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2019, 06:07:59 PM »
But I'd like an actual monk player to chime in and explain how they're not insanely good in the context of the server. It's just a waiting game and if your character can live long enough, you achieve mechanical nirvana.

Context is a bit vague. There's PVE, PVP, and general things you do in between (quality of life, general NWN experience)

I'm pretty sure that most classes look powerful when you examine them at max level.
Compared to bards, clerics and wizards that can steamroll the server both in PVE and PVP due to the casting power that take them light years ahead of mundane classes in terms of self-reliance, monk is definitely weaker in active combat by themselves. They can survive pretty much anything you throw at them if they pay attention, but it doesn't mean they'll overcome any serious threat in PVE or PVP either because that survival generally involves running away and living to fight smarter another day.

In terms of quality of life though, I'd rate them second to none since you don't have a whole lot to worry about. Itemization is straightforward even if expensive (~200-250k if you want the good loot). Speed lets you move around from hub to hub and generally you can get more things done for the time you put in. Having carry weight is also nice.

If survival is your top priority, then yes the class is insanely good. If you want to actually impose your might on other players in PVP or on a PVE dungeon in a party context, just play a bard, cleric, wizard, or paladin, or even a STR ranger, and you'll be miles ahead.

As a side note, I don't think Ki-Strike particularly needs a buff. The fact they get DR Piercing 3 is already good considering other mundane classes have access to adamantine weaponry (which gives AB and DMG, not just DR Piercing at a hefty financial cost), and casters get Greater Magic Weapon on tap to pump EB to +4. Paladins and Rangers are the only ones with access to +5 if I'm not mistaken (Holy Sword and Banebow).
+1

aprogressivist

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2019, 06:09:33 PM »
As for full BAB, well yes for a pvp fight, eating a heart of the beast for 17 rounds of full BAB will do. But I'd hate the server's balance to be based on PVP, when it represents such a tiny portion of our playtime.

The reason Heart of the Beast is considered mostly for PvP is because context matters.

A Heart of the Beast is a minor boost in PvE; it's good for a short fight, lets you kill one big boss and/or a couple of room fulls of mobs, but it's nothing you couldn't replicate through hard work. Dungeons are there to be beaten.

It's a major boost in PvP because the consequences and effects are sharper and will impact other players directly: a Heart of the Beast can easily utterly turn the tide for a PvP fight.  In the hands of a Monk, this is all the more noticeable given his unparallelled strengths as a Flanker/Harrier.

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I don't think monks should win every duel, nor should any class really, but to say they're not supposed to fight in this way seems preposterous to me. Yes, monks are very fast, but you can't actually hit and run effectively in NWN unless you have stealth so what are they supposed to do if they don't have stealth (and no, stealth skills, while nice, shouldn't be considered core skills for the class; no sneak attacks or particular advantage for stealth besides fast walk speed, nor is every monk flavored to be some kind of ninja )? Yes, they could run and gun instead but this is hardly what a traditional monk is designed to do.

As someone who's actually tried to catch high level Monks in PvP, I couldn't disagree more.

Yes, hit and run tactics are effective. In fact that's what Monks are built to do: more than any class, they have the ability to retreat from a bad fight, heal, rebuff, and come back for more. No class is as good at survival as the Monk.

Yes, stealth matters. Most frontline classes make poor detectors, and Monks will have the easiest time of any class to use corner-stealthing.  Even if you can't do that, they also have access to Shrouded Dance here, so you're almost certain to get at least one stealth attempt off.

And while not all monks will have the ranged fire power of the gun monk, nonetheless they exist.

So I think the truly preposterous suggestion is that a class that can outrun, out-sneak, and situationally outshoot most frontliner classes, should also reliably be able to go toe-to-toe against them in melee as well. I mean, in what circumstances should a Monk actually be at a disadvantage?!

Because if he can outrun and outfight anybody -- at least with on par builds and buffs -- then the Monk has no real weaknesses.  At least no weaknesses other than "getting ganked while unbuffed", which is not an unique weakness.  Are we supposed to take Iridni's flippant suggestion that the only way to kill a monk is to hope he crashes at face value?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 06:42:19 PM by aprogressivist »
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nostalgicsamurai

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2019, 03:56:44 AM »
If you run to heal and rebuff, you give your opponent the time to do the same. Eventually, unless you have more healing consumables than your opponent, you will lose the fight if you're weaker, it'll just take longer.

What I mean by "hit and run" is attacking then using your speed to retreat before the opponent has time to riposte, which can't really be done in NWN unless you're attacking from stealth.

The problem with assuming that every monk will have stealth (and shrouded dance) just because it's a class skill is that on a class that already has 3 core combat skills that they can't do without on Potm (tumble, parry and discipline ) you're encouraging them to always take two more skills (hide/ms) and five points of perform on top of that. Balancing the game around the assumption that every monk will have all these skills simply kills creativity and leads to all players of the class going for very similar builds because anything else is not viable. Monks are already very restricted in terms of ability score distribution needing str for damage (even if dex based) as well as AB if str based, dex for AC, as well as AB if dex based, con for hp, especially considering that they're a melee class with d8 HP, wis for AC and a few classes feats. If we consider that stealth is a core part of the class, then they need int too because the demands in terms of skill points are just too damn high. No wonder every monk goes with 8 cha (well, it's also because alas there aren't much real consequences here for dumping cha).

Now, I'm not asking for any actual buff to the class ( I'd rather have ways to give it more diversity than a straight buff), as I think it's strong enough, but suggesting that every monk should be a sneaker and never fight in the "honorable" way, even  though being a vicious sneaker doesn't fit every monk flavour wise, kinda upsets me.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 01:32:48 PM by nostalgicsamurai »

aprogressivist

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2019, 01:23:17 PM »
On the other hand, balancing the game around non-optimal builds is implicitly allowing optimal builds to be OP.

All other classes have much more distinct disadvantages. Yet we already live in the state where a Monk can build to heavily counter if not completely nullify their disadvantages (as long as they has the time and energy to grind, sure, but nonetheless); the usual disadvantage that a Monk won't hit as hard as a full BAB class, yet that is addressed here... with alchemy, enchanted gloves, and Divine Power, a Monk will hit like a truck. (Heck, my latest newbie character got a Heart of the Beast by level 6 or earlier and a late game character could have a bag full of these.)

I understand how to someone with a different lived experience, it may seem unfair and obsessive to focus on particular builds played by people willing to put in the time and effort to grind gear, but the Monk's strengths and abilities do put the class in a niche of its own, because a class that can easily escape is also a class that can easily stop others escaping. (It's telling that Monk/Assassin is generally considered something of a sidegrade or even a downgrade over pure Monk.)

Now, I'm personally pretty relaxed about PvE or low level stuff, so I wouldn't mind to see a Monk be boosted for that, but the factors above are why you'll see some of us pushing back against general improvements to the Monk that also benefit PvP, especially at high levels.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

nostalgicsamurai

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2019, 01:44:23 PM »
On the other hand, balancing the game around non-optimal builds is implicitly allowing optimal builds to be OP.

I'm okay with that. This a RP server. RP must come first. That means there must be room for non optimal builds, unless we want all characters to look the same.

If someone heavily powergames, dumping stats because they have no combat utility for him and only putting points in combat related skills, then they should face RP consequences for it. That's how you balance an RP server right IMO.

aprogressivist

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2019, 01:48:52 PM »
Or maybe it's the "honourable monk" who doesn't build to take advantage of all his class abilities who should face the consequences of his choices.

Edit Note: Also: please stop presenting the Monk ability to take Discipline, Parry and Tumble as Class Skills as a "necessity" that takes away from their class diversity. The ability to take these Skills in class is in fact a Class strength, not an obligation -- just ask the Wizards and Clerics  -- and the encouragement to take high Int is hardly unique to Monks. Hells, some people take Int 16 on Rogues and Bards.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 02:01:16 PM by aprogressivist »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

aprogressivist

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2019, 02:17:48 PM »
To further clarify a point above:

Most builds here encourage Intelligence 14 to pick up Skill Points, even cross Class, because Skills are so strong on PotM. This is not a Monk specific issue.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

nostalgicsamurai

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2019, 03:37:22 PM »
It is a class strength but it IS also a necessity that takes away from class diversity, and I'm not talking just about monk here. Think about all the fighters who have to take discipline and cross class tumble to keep up when they only have 2+int mod skill points per level. In pnp, these points could be spent elsewhere. When you make a skill so strong that it becomes mandatory, you're inevitably taking away from class diversity, because characters who can take the skill but choose not to become unable to keep up, as the encounters are balanced around them having said skill.

Admittedly yes, needing a lot of skills for the sole purpose of combat/dungeonneering is a general problem. It is one we should strive to diminish rather than encourage unless we want to always see the same cookie cutters builds. Heck maybe give every class more skill points just like every class was given more feats.

Or maybe it's the "honourable monk" who doesn't build to take advantage of all his class abilities who should face the consequences of his choices.


This strikes me as an odd thing to say in an RP server where cheesing is forbidden. If you dumped charisma because you wanted to powergame you SHOULD face the consequences of that. If instead you choose to dodge the consequences by playing your character all charming and silvertongued even though you have 8 cha, you are cheesing thus breaking the rules. If you haven't invested in influence yet play a skilled liar you are cheesing thus breaking the rules.  Etc etc. Thus a correctly roleplayed character will face RP consequences for min maxing, just as a character built with RP considerations in mind will face the consequences of being mechanically inferior to its min maxed equivalent (he should still be viable however, because hopefully, in an RP server, powerbuilding is not required)

Again, I'd really like it if we wouldn't encourage the current situation where most chars who are not cha classes have 6 or 8 cha because "who cares, there aren't much real consequences".
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 03:40:12 PM by nostalgicsamurai »

immasturgeon

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2019, 03:55:48 PM »
Many of the things you are asking are already implemented.

You are free to go through easier content than your peers if you are wishing to have more variety and less specialization. A person who builds (and RPs) a truly dedicated character is then punished by being brought to equivalency to another who didn't have single minded pursuit to be the pinnacle of their specialty.

They suffer in variety as your concept suffers in peak strength. This is an RP server, and you say that others should not worry about power or perfection. But that is just what you are arguing for yourself and your preferred build/concept.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 04:02:41 PM by immasturgeon »

aprogressivist

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2019, 04:31:06 PM »
It is a class strength but it IS also a necessity that takes away from class diversity, and I'm not talking just about monk here. Think about all the fighters who have to take discipline and cross class tumble to keep up when they only have 2+int mod skill points per level. In pnp, these points could be spent elsewhere.

Funnily enough, you never hear Fighters complaining about this, even though Fighters are arguably the worst class overall, even with all the changes. At any rate, this is a moot point.

This strikes me as an odd thing to say in an RP server where cheesing is forbidden.

I'm not saying that someone who takes CHA 8 shouldn't suffer consequences (though mostly, beyond the OCR hit, those are up to DMs to enforce). Nor am I saying that someone playing with CHA 8 should or could roleplay as a smooth-talking rake.

I'm saying that a Monk who doesn't buy into stealth has no grounds to complain about not being as PvP viable as stealth Monks; stealth is a major facet in PvP and Monks who choose not to buy into it are choosing to be at a disadvantage in PvP.

And that's fine; not everyone wants to build to full PvP potential, nor should everyone feel they have to. But it is short-sighted to say we should balance matters around non-optimal PvP choices and that therefore the "honourable" monk should be able to punch harder or generally be more viable, and then ignore the balance consequences that happen when we give stealth Monks the same advantage.  And the stealth Monk is already in a very strong place in PvP.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 04:34:03 PM by aprogressivist »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Saltminer

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2019, 04:23:28 AM »
Many of the things you are asking are already implemented.

You are free to go through easier content than your peers if you are wishing to have more variety and less specialization. A person who builds (and RPs) a truly dedicated character is then punished by being brought to equivalency to another who didn't have single minded pursuit to be the pinnacle of their specialty.

They suffer in variety as your concept suffers in peak strength. This is an RP server, and you say that others should not worry about power or perfection. But that is just what you are arguing for yourself and your preferred build/concept.

I suppose I'm heavily focusing on the mechanical strength because that really seems to be the only deciding factor. From what I understand, there's only a handful of active DMs and they already focus most of their energy into their group so if you put points into social skills or non-optimal skills like spot as opposed to listen, you're not really penalized that hard for playing a single-minded killing machine. Maybe it speaks to me as a player, but I was never really good enough to get a DM that RP'd with my crew in the mist camp and we mainly did dungeon runs. I fear the Count and his men 1000000000% less than some of the guys that had the time grind out the levels and have gear from way back in the day.

In fact, Barovia's kind of a joke. It's not even scary when you're in it and I know I can conduct my business with 0% of being bothered by the setting. Werewolves? Dabbed on by my rapier. Skeletons? LOL JUST APPLY A VARNISH. Vallaki guard? Unu momento domn while I ream your low level RP build that can't even go level. AMPC? Well, I know they aren't going to corpse hide me and they're only so high level anyway. Besides, they usually die really fast if they aren't a vampire and vampires have their very distinct weaknesses.

This is veering heavily off topic, but being able to be level 20 seems a mistake and level 20 monks are more of a symptom of that. Maybe it gets really scary when you have a DM is ever present I wouldn't know.

also i realized the server might just not be for me so take it easy peeps
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 04:43:53 AM by Saltminer »

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2019, 04:44:11 PM »
A lack of Charisma or Influence isn't something that should be enforced or worried about by other players roleplaying, it's just for DM's to enforce. Cheesing refers to representing abilities that do not have a mechanical component -- I.E., playing a telepath, or playing racial abilities from a homebrew domain that do not exist for your base race.

Neither Charisma nor Influence has a mechanical component in day-to-day PoTM for player-to-player interactions, beyond mitigating OCR negatives, banking at the Vallaki Bank, and Charisma-based spellcasting. However they choose to represent their character from that point forward is wholly up to them, because it is a very... Subjective thing, how one should play a Charisma-heavy or Influence-heavy PC. In PnP those skills existed so that it you could just roll Persuade or the like instead of actually trying to contrive an argument for or against something, that would represent your skill. In PoTM, if Influence were to be used verbatim as it was in PnP as a mechanical option, then everyone would be subject to Influence rolls, and require a DM to arbitrate the result of the role. That just isn't the case, here.

I suppose I'm heavily focusing on the mechanical strength because that really seems to be the only deciding factor. From what I understand, there's only a handful of active DMs and they already focus most of their energy into their group so if you put points into social skills or non-optimal skills like spot as opposed to listen, you're not really penalized that hard for playing a single-minded killing machine. Maybe it speaks to me as a player, but I was never really good enough to get a DM that RP'd with my crew in the mist camp and we mainly did dungeon runs.

I don't think the DM's spend much time if at all doing stuff for the people chilling around Mist Camp, because Mist Camp is basically a dungeoneering hub. They generally want you to either roll off to Barovia (14 and under) or Dementlieu (10-20) and get involved there, because those are actual settings in Ravenloft that they can run events out of -- Whereas the Mist Camp is actually a homebrew thing used to link the domains together for travel and ease of coordination between players to play the game. They've been known to do minor events in Blaustein, Ghastria, Hazlan, and even Har'Akir as well. But those places do not have banks or professions people can pick up, they're mostly pocket domains for dungeons at the moment.

Confused Warlock

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2019, 04:55:12 PM »
I don't think the DM's spend much time if at all doing stuff for the people chilling around Mist Camp, because Mist Camp is basically a dungeoneering hub. They generally want you to either roll off to Barovia (14 and under) or Dementlieu (10-20) and get involved there, because those are actual settings in Ravenloft that they can run events out of -- Whereas the Mist Camp is actually a homebrew thing used to link the domains together for travel and ease of coordination between players to play the game. They've been known to do minor events in Blaustein, Ghastria, Hazlan, and even Har'Akir as well. But those places do not have banks or professions people can pick up, they're mostly pocket domains for dungeons at the moment.

Mist Camp is not a place for any meaningful DM interaction, to be honest - it's like expecting to have a DM make a scene for you in the caravan. Extended stay there is basically pointless, if you're looking to get involved.

Destinysdesire

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2019, 04:59:15 PM »
I don't think the DM's spend much time if at all doing stuff for the people chilling around Mist Camp, because Mist Camp is basically a dungeoneering hub. They generally want you to either roll off to Barovia (14 and under) or Dementlieu (10-20) and get involved there, because those are actual settings in Ravenloft that they can run events out of -- Whereas the Mist Camp is actually a homebrew thing used to link the domains together for travel and ease of coordination between players to play the game. They've been known to do minor events in Blaustein, Ghastria, Hazlan, and even Har'Akir as well. But those places do not have banks or professions people can pick up, they're mostly pocket domains for dungeons at the moment.

Mist Camp is not a place for any meaningful DM interaction, to be honest - it's like expecting to have a DM make a scene for you in the caravan. Extended stay there is basically pointless, if you're looking to get involved.

I have had meaningful DM interaction at the MC and at a caravan, so this is not entirely accurate.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2019, 05:04:48 PM »
I don't think the DM's spend much time if at all doing stuff for the people chilling around Mist Camp, because Mist Camp is basically a dungeoneering hub. They generally want you to either roll off to Barovia (14 and under) or Dementlieu (10-20) and get involved there, because those are actual settings in Ravenloft that they can run events out of -- Whereas the Mist Camp is actually a homebrew thing used to link the domains together for travel and ease of coordination between players to play the game. They've been known to do minor events in Blaustein, Ghastria, Hazlan, and even Har'Akir as well. But those places do not have banks or professions people can pick up, they're mostly pocket domains for dungeons at the moment.

Mist Camp is not a place for any meaningful DM interaction, to be honest - it's like expecting to have a DM make a scene for you in the caravan. Extended stay there is basically pointless, if you're looking to get involved.

I have had meaningful DM interaction at the MC and at a caravan, so this is not entirely accurate.

That's the exception, not the rule. The Mist Camps have had DM interactions, it isn't some kind of null-zone, but it is extremely few and far between. There is no Dark Lord, nor setting, of the Mist Camps. It's just this pocket area that exists against canon to allow us to move between domains.

Arawn

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2019, 05:59:15 PM »
We’ve gone far off topic and the original poster has been quite thoroughly answered, so I’m going to close the thread.
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