Author Topic: Monk Ki Strike Change  (Read 5751 times)

Ken14

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Monk Ki Strike Change
« on: November 06, 2019, 09:53:29 PM »
So, I know that there have been (likely several) requests of making Ki Strike a +1/2/3 AB, in addition to the way it pierces DR. So I'mma not suggest that.

But why is it just until +3? And why so late? Why not have it follow the path of magical enhancements:

Get Ki Strike 1 at lvl 2. Then KS 2 at lvl 8. Then KS 3 at lvl 12, KS 4 at lvl 16 and KS 5 at lvl 20.


It seems more akin to the class that they'd eventually manage to pierce heavy protections with their strikes when they're at their Apex. And getting KS at lower levels will help with overcoming DR at the lower end of the level pool, instead of getting such at lvl 10.....When you probably already got your own means of piercing through +1 DR.



 

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2019, 10:22:48 PM »
Why would you want to buff a class at higher level when their weakness isn't actually their higher level power, but actually their lower levels? Having Ki strike cap at +3 is in par with what adamantine is right now, and giving it +4 would only push them over the top in my opinion. High level monks are already SUPER strong, they don't need more buffs to make them even better at those levels. If you want to propose buffs to them, try to propose something that will help their levels 2-7, which is when their life is hard.

Ken14

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2019, 12:06:13 AM »
Why would you want to buff a class at higher level when their weakness isn't actually their higher level power, but actually their lower levels? Having Ki strike cap at +3 is in par with what adamantine is right now, and giving it +4 would only push them over the top in my opinion. High level monks are already SUPER strong, they don't need more buffs to make them even better at those levels. If you want to propose buffs to them, try to propose something that will help their levels 2-7, which is when their life is hard.

Ki strike at lvl 2, KS 2 at lvl 8 and KS 3 at lvl 12 works just as well for improving the lower level progress.

Saltminer

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2019, 12:08:26 AM »
monk strengths:

optimal crafting stat spread (wis/con)
free imp kd
free cleave
rapid blow for their 1d20 punches
immunity to poison
SR: 30, which is basically a 75% chance to resist a level 9 spell outright. Not all offensive spells are level 9.
pierce stoneskin by merely existing
immunity to mind spells, immunity to vallaki guard with 1/20
perpetual 60% speed that stacks with haste for zoomy bois
aforementioned speed permits gun monks, while not the strongest, to ensure you can kite somebody to death.
not weighed down by full plate, can get full plate ac from wis/greater wis potion cheese.
deflect an archer's first attack which is the highest ab.
improved evasion.
ethereal jaunt which makes you basically able to survive S.T.A.L.K.E.R-esque living conditions like the wall of RA on tap.
increase ac for merely existing, this goes up to +4 ac at 20.
punch of slaying, just in case you want to yeet a low level.
access to ms, hide, discipline, tumble, spot, listen and gets decent 4+int modifier allows to cover all your bases.
fort, reflex, will saves every level. uni saves at enchanted gear. cross-class spellcraft for more uni saves. get LoH/SS for more beefy saves.
DESPITE ALL THESE COOL PERKS, THEY STILL GET BONUS FEATS LIKE ANY OTHER CLASS. (2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20)
not gated behind an application and anyone can play it.

and you want +5 dr piercing?

You want ki-strike sooner to make their biggest weakness (a low level hell that everyone goes through) a lot more palatable?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 12:23:34 AM by Saltminer »

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2019, 12:35:20 AM »
But why is it just until +3? And why so late? Why not have it follow the path of magical enhancements:

I think the additional ki strikes are because although a lot of mechanics in NWN are drawn directly from 3.0 with 3.5 added in later, they felt that Monk was underpowered, so base NWN did this to make monks more relevant.

Originally at lvl 16 if you look in the player handbook (at least the 3.5 one I have) by lvl 16 the fists become equivalent to adamantine. Looking at the materials section of the DM guide, weapons made of adamantine can bypass a certain level of hardness, and are considered masterwork quality. Masterwork quality weapons are considered to have a +1 enhancement.

Level 16 Ki Strike = adamantine weapon = masterwork quality = +1 enhancement.

By level 4 in the base campaign you already have +1 weapons by then, so its absolute garbage. Likely this is why it does up to +3 enhancement, so you wouldn't have issues with fighting dragons, golems and such in chap 3/chap4 with your fists.

Maybe PotM could make it higher or set it up to acquire things sooner?

Sure, but a +3 cutting makes it equivalent to having enchanted adamantine at lvl 16 while giving you the freedom to use whatever bonus damaging gloves you like.

In terms of game balance, it's in a nice place for PotM, even if it is currently better than the D&D 3 edition equivalents that PotM draws upon. My personal opinion is that its great that they haven't been nerfed back down to 3e sources, and that where Ki Strike +3 sits is a sweet spot perfect for this server.

Perhaps it could be adjusted so that the Ki Strikes sit on levels 4, 10, 16 rather than 10 13 16 so its at the same points it improves in the players handbook (3.5 is the one I have anyway, not sure what the stages are in 3.0) but that's about it.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2019, 12:49:50 AM »
monk strengths:

optimal crafting stat spread (wis/con)
free imp kd
free cleave
rapid blow for their 1d20 punches
immunity to poison
SR: 30, which is basically a 75% chance to resist a level 9 spell outright. Not all offensive spells are level 9.
pierce stoneskin by merely existing
immunity to mind spells, immunity to vallaki guard with 1/20
perpetual 60% speed that stacks with haste for zoomy bois
aforementioned speed permits gun monks, while not the strongest, to ensure you can kite somebody to death.
not weighed down by full plate, can get full plate ac from wis/greater wis potion cheese.
deflect an archer's first attack which is the highest ab.
improved evasion.
ethereal jaunt which makes you basically able to survive S.T.A.L.K.E.R-esque living conditions like the wall of RA on tap.
increase ac for merely existing, this goes up to +4 ac at 20.
punch of slaying, just in case you want to yeet a low level.
access to ms, hide, discipline, tumble, spot, listen and gets decent 4+int modifier allows to cover all your bases.
fort, reflex, will saves every level. uni saves at enchanted gear. cross-class spellcraft for more uni saves. get LoH/SS for more beefy saves.
DESPITE ALL THESE COOL PERKS, THEY STILL GET BONUS FEATS LIKE ANY OTHER CLASS. (2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20)
not gated behind an application and anyone can play it.

and you want +5 dr piercing?

You want ki-strike sooner to make their biggest weakness (a low level hell that everyone goes through) a lot more palatable?

+1.  Knowing an end game monk will slap the teeth right out of the face of a paladin at lvl 20 in a straight up fight -without- being a gun monk, its been a bit exasperating and frankly tiring to see so many threads of late demanding what is possibly the best late game melee class be made even stronger still.

Ken14

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2019, 01:09:32 AM »
monk strengths:

optimal crafting stat spread (wis/con)
free imp kd
free cleave
rapid blow for their 1d20 punches
immunity to poison
SR: 30, which is basically a 75% chance to resist a level 9 spell outright. Not all offensive spells are level 9.
pierce stoneskin by merely existing
immunity to mind spells, immunity to vallaki guard with 1/20
perpetual 60% speed that stacks with haste for zoomy bois
aforementioned speed permits gun monks, while not the strongest, to ensure you can kite somebody to death.
not weighed down by full plate, can get full plate ac from wis/greater wis potion cheese.
deflect an archer's first attack which is the highest ab.
improved evasion.
ethereal jaunt which makes you basically able to survive S.T.A.L.K.E.R-esque living conditions like the wall of RA on tap.
increase ac for merely existing, this goes up to +4 ac at 20.
punch of slaying, just in case you want to yeet a low level.
access to ms, hide, discipline, tumble, spot, listen and gets decent 4+int modifier allows to cover all your bases.
fort, reflex, will saves every level. uni saves at enchanted gear. cross-class spellcraft for more uni saves. get LoH/SS for more beefy saves.
DESPITE ALL THESE COOL PERKS, THEY STILL GET BONUS FEATS LIKE ANY OTHER CLASS. (2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20)
not gated behind an application and anyone can play it.

and you want +5 dr piercing?

You want ki-strike sooner to make their biggest weakness (a low level hell that everyone goes through) a lot more palatable?


There's a few misunderstandings in here:


Pierce stoneskin : Last I checked, stoneskin is +4. You could pierce ethereal visage at lvl 16, though.

Rapid blow for their 1d20 punches : you don't get 1d20 punches until lvl 16. And even then, only for medium-sized. Small-sized gets 2d6 at best. So for most of that, you're hitting for 1d6 to 1d12. And not much else,sans enhancements, cause a lot of monks go for Dex-based builds.

SR: 30, which is basically a 75% chance to resist a level 9 spell outright. Not all offensive spells are level 9 : Far as I know, that's not how SR works. It's not dependant on spell level, it's dependant on Caster Level, amongst other factors. A mage that can cast lvl 9 spells, lvl 17? Without greater spell penetration ( which is unlikely), He'd have to roll a 13. So....65%, if you're lvl 20. With greater spell penetration, it's a 40% chance. If the caster is equal level 20? 30%.  That's still not bad, but a bit of a far cry from 75%.

immunity to mind spells, immunity to vallaki guard with 1/20 : That IS true....But that's something you get at lvl 20. It also functions as a weakness, because now you're an outsider and you can be banished. Admittedly, with a Monk's will saves, you should be fine.



I get what you're saying, though. Monks get good stuff. Sure, they don't utterly -need- improved ki strikes. But I've levelled a Monk. 1 to 8? It's shit, unless you got a warder or a team on call. You don't play because the class is fun, you play because of the roleplay.

Which, perhaps, is what it should be about.

But that's my personal opinion, not fact.



Saltminer

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2019, 03:07:31 AM »
1. You're right on stoneskin. I'm not sure why I thought the regular version had +3.
---

2. You're also right on sr checks, too. 20 (caster level) + 4 (greater spell pen) = 24

Subtract 24 from 30 and you got 6 leftover.

the equalizer is the 1d20 that gets rolled so you need to roll a 6 or higher.

30% to resist a full on level 20 spellcaster that's spec'd in it if you did get jumped. So, yes, you'd be pretty helpless from an igms spam if you didn't run away.

A monk has a d8 which lets assume it's a 10 con monk, 160 hp.

You get jumped with IGMS, 20 missles that go between 2 - 5 damage. 40 - 100 damage. It's possible to get smoked in two rounds and I only bring up IGMS because the rest is ethereal jaunted. This also assumes the wizard didn't take pale master fotm and is pretty helpless against you outright because they only have 10 wizard levels.

Also congratulations, you're as spell resistant as a half-orc barbarian with 0 of the effort or feat investment.

--
3. Tried to banish a 20 monk on the test server. You're still humanoid in terms of mechanical power as far as I know.

--
I hate monk players because I ain't monk players. I didn't want to do the extreme self-discipline role-play that entails it and forsake various aspects of being an avaricious adventurer but then I find out you can still role-play a whoring, boozing monk and nothing happens to you. Meanwhile, I had to spend a lot of time getting the weapon master PrC (which, ironically, entails a lot of self-discipline roleplay to channel ki in your weapon) and had to navigate the bureaucracy to be a filthy mundane with a 17 - 20 crit range.

And they get so much quality of life that can only be appreciated when you play a non-caster. Do you know how cool it is to zoom throughout the module at 60% gathering herbs? Sure, the low levels are terrible but that's the case for everyone. When the master strat 1- 5 is krofburg - vallaki drug running and that's regardless of whether or not you're a monk or not that's a testament to how grueling the low level experience is otherwise. But eventually you get levels, gear, and some friends and before you know it you're doing Har'akir runs.

But don't mind me, I'm just kind of having an existential crisis right now and despite being lvl 14 right now, I still feel tempted to reroll a monk and put in the month of effort to become a god. Please, give monks +4 and +5 ki strike so I can also be a punchy arcane archer on top of everything else. (sans damage, but wizards are nerds you can shove in lockers regardless.)

I just feel sorry for the people that actually had to put up with Halan roleplay to become a hallowed witch. Little did they know they could've just played a monk and it probably won't ever get nerfed or re-adjusted.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 03:27:46 AM by Saltminer »

Ken14

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2019, 04:16:07 AM »
1. You're right on stoneskin. I'm not sure why I thought the regular version had +3.
---

2. You're also right on sr checks, too. 20 (caster level) + 4 (greater spell pen) = 24

Subtract 24 from 30 and you got 6 leftover.

the equalizer is the 1d20 that gets rolled so you need to roll a 6 or higher.

30% to resist a full on level 20 spellcaster that's spec'd in it if you did get jumped. So, yes, you'd be pretty helpless from an igms spam if you didn't run away.

A monk has a d8 which lets assume it's a 10 con monk, 160 hp.

You get jumped with IGMS, 20 missles that go between 2 - 5 damage. 40 - 100 damage. It's possible to get smoked in two rounds and I only bring up IGMS because the rest is ethereal jaunted. This also assumes the wizard didn't take pale master fotm and is pretty helpless against you outright because they only have 10 wizard levels.

Also congratulations, you're as spell resistant as a half-orc barbarian with 0 of the effort or feat investment.

--
3. Tried to banish a 20 monk on the test server. You're still humanoid in terms of mechanical power as far as I know.

--
I hate monk players because I ain't monk players. I didn't want to do the extreme self-discipline role-play that entails it and forsake various aspects of being an avaricious adventurer but then I find out you can still role-play a whoring, boozing monk and nothing happens to you. Meanwhile, I had to spend a lot of time getting the weapon master PrC (which, ironically, entails a lot of self-discipline roleplay to channel ki in your weapon) and had to navigate the bureaucracy to be a filthy mundane with a 17 - 20 crit range.

And they get so much quality of life that can only be appreciated when you play a non-caster. Do you know how cool it is to zoom throughout the module at 60% gathering herbs? Sure, the low levels are terrible but that's the case for everyone. When the master strat 1- 5 is krofburg - vallaki drug running and that's regardless of whether or not you're a monk or not that's a testament to how grueling the low level experience is otherwise. But eventually you get levels, gear, and some friends and before you know it you're doing Har'akir runs.

But don't mind me, I'm just kind of having an existential crisis right now and despite being lvl 14 right now, I still feel tempted to reroll a monk and put in the month of effort to become a god. Please, give monks +4 and +5 ki strike so I can also be a punchy arcane archer on top of everything else. (sans damage, but wizards are nerds you can shove in lockers regardless.)

I just feel sorry for the people that actually had to put up with Halan roleplay to become a hallowed witch. Little did they know they could've just played a monk and it probably won't ever get nerfed or re-adjusted.

One : +4 and +5 would be interesting, but I was more gearing towards suggesting ( not demanding, I'm no developer) getting Ki Strike +1 to 2 a little earlier, because it would not affect the class balance overly much. By the time you're lvl 10, you either already have a group you travel with that gives you magic weapon, or you have your own varnishes, polishing clothes, however. It's still useful for when magic gets dispelled, true….

Two :  I always figured most PrC's were more for roleplay flavor then powerbuilding, with a few exceptions.

Three : A whoring, boozing monk that isn't specialized in Drunken Monkey/Boxing is kinda weird, I'll give you that. And yes, I'm aware actual martial artists of those style don't usually drink, but it's a common enough stereotype that it doesn't seem too farfetched for roleplay.

Four : Maybe I'm just not that hardcore into grinding, but it seems damn difficult to me to level a character from 1 to 16 in the span of a month. Or even 12, which arguably the starting point of Monks becoming awesome.


Five : I admittedly haven't even actively played a monk since before they added the fiery fist and Ki Blast feats, except a brief moment during the NCE, for nostalgia's sake. Which is where the idea for my suggestion came from, in fact. Maybe some actual monk players can chime in on this?


Otherwhise…..Honestly, this thread is going nowhere then, I think. The suggestion has been made, feedback has been given, enough said. Maybe it's best if a moderator locks the thread, before it devolves into something awful?

Iridni Ren

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2019, 07:42:00 AM »
Otherwhise…..Honestly, this thread is going nowhere then, I think. The suggestion has been made, feedback has been given, enough said. Maybe it's best if a moderator locks the thread, before it devolves into something awful?

A lot of the criticism of your suggestion has been pretty scatter gun / kitchen sink and seems borne of a resentment toward the class (and even, admittedly, toward the players of monks themselves!). Venting by those having "existential" crises is more a reflection on the person than the topic.

Although I have idea of how unbalancing your suggestion might be, your manner in presenting it or its limited scope hardly seem worthy of the vitriolic reaction it has sparked.

I know of four relatively recently active high-level monks. None of them I would characterize as striking fear into their opponents or engendering the kind of respect high level druids and high level mages do. Three of the four I know of being easily beaten in single duels.

The most striking advantage about monks--their blinding speed--seems to me to be isolating on a server that emphasizes group play: to take full advantage of it, the monk must forego the company of other classes.

Otherwise, I have no opinion about the merits of your proposed buff. Perhaps some actual monk players should weigh in, if they haven't been berated into submission by the previous anti-monk screeds :D
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 07:44:27 AM by Iridni Ren »

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Dante101

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2019, 08:08:44 AM »
I firmly disagree with the suggestion to give any class a flat +4 (much less +5) enhancement bonus. With the exception of perhaps Arcane Archer, as it exists in vanilla.

Throw in the fact that their base damage at those levels is 1d20 and it should be a no-brainer that this would be an enormous buff to an already quite viable class.

Saltminer

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2019, 08:18:10 AM »
Monk speed is hardly isolating in terms of group play. You contribute greatly retrieving the bodies and can juke the NPCs quite easily with a good latency if you're a str-based monk with stealth access. To be less memey, Irdni, the feats of strength they're capable of is quite potent in the hands of a capable player (so experience might vary player to player) and a good monk player cannot easily be stopped with the tools they have access to.

You play a cleric so there's not really a whole lot you can do against a determined high-level gun monk, for example. You might even put up a good fight but the only course of reasonable action to even catch up to one is to hide behind an NPC and attack them when they aren't expecting it.

But I'd like an actual monk player to chime in and explain how they're not insanely good in the context of the server. It's just a waiting game and if your character can live long enough, you achieve mechanical nirvana.

edit: Even better, it'd be nice to have a developer explain to me where I'm wrong. I imagine they're the ones that play the game the most and are the most up-to-date on the mechanics.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 08:43:10 AM by Saltminer »

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2019, 09:29:51 AM »
The most striking advantage about monks--their blinding speed--seems to me to be isolating on a server that emphasizes group play: to take full advantage of it, the monk must forego the company of other classes.

That's thematic in a way, but to be honest, it is also very useful in group content the higher level you get, as well as seeking out RP and minimising time spent between areas where people are RPing. The monk basically teleports to where the casters are and just kills them with 5+ APR (first strike, cleave, AoO, flurry, haste all being full AB). It also means they can flee very safely without needing to ever dodge an AoO, which, for some classes who have to decide whether to wait for the right moment to walk out of combat or risk the AoO, is pretty nice. This class can gather every herb in a map and still reach the destination before the rest of the group. They can run between hubs without danger at a fraction of the time other classes can, so if one is empty, they can move on to find RP in the next. They can run someone back to be resurrected faster, so that's less time waiting for the rest of the group in the dungeon. It all compounds. It is a massive convenience at worst and at best it's a great boost that has a lot of synergy with the rest of not only your kit, but your team too.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2019, 09:55:08 AM »
The most striking advantage about monks--their blinding speed--seems to me to be isolating on a server that emphasizes group play: to take full advantage of it, the monk must forego the company of other classes.

That's thematic in a way, but to be honest, it is also very useful in group content the higher level you get, as well as seeking out RP and minimising time spent between areas where people are RPing. The monk basically teleports to where the casters are and just kills them with 5+ APR (first strike, cleave, AoO, flurry, haste all being full AB). It also means they can flee very safely without needing to ever dodge an AoO, which, for some classes who have to decide whether to wait for the right moment to walk out of combat or risk the AoO, is pretty nice. This class can gather every herb in a map and still reach the destination before the rest of the group. They can run between hubs without danger at a fraction of the time other classes can, so if one is empty, they can move on to find RP in the next. They can run someone back to be resurrected faster, so that's less time waiting for the rest of the group in the dungeon. It all compounds. It is a massive convenience at worst and at best it's a great boost that has a lot of synergy with the rest of not only your kit, but your team too.

That sounds good in theory, but we also play in an environment prone to lag, crashes, and other bugs. A class relying on precision and timing is more likely to fall victim to these hazards.

Do you play a high level monk? Going by what I've observed, at least, they tend to be (as one would expect for the class) loners who have to work harder than most to find groups and a place to fit--which is the greatest challenge IMO on the server. Compare, for example, the versatility and adaptability of a bard.

I don't know that the class needs buffing, especially this change. But to me the most objective measure of whether a class is "in a good place" is how many players are choosing to play the class. I've never seen a big clamor for monks, and instead have seen many new players choose the class early on with great enthusiasm and then abandon the PC in frustration. (Most everyone seems to concede that in the early stages monk life is difficult.)

To veer even farther from Ken's slight suggestion, my own preference is that Devs continue to focus on fixing what we have and enhancing the general experience of the server with changes that impact the greatest number of PCs. If something is egregiously wrong with a class, then maybe that deserves attention. Most classes, however, I know too little about to speak to.


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APorg

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2019, 10:20:20 AM »
Monks should lose duels.  Standing and fighting in a duel is literally the form of combat that cancels out the Monk's main advantage, the ability to not be pinned down.

The problem is, the fact that Monks can grind and get Hearts of the Beast means that actually they can punch way above their weight in duels, and PvP in general.

So monks can achieve full AB, combine that with Flurry of Blows, and effectively have +10 AC over their PnP counterparts; they're already incredibly stronger than their PnP counterparts.
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immasturgeon

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2019, 10:32:34 AM »
I agree with dante, their inherent ki-strike should never reach beyond +3.

Most high level monks I know of make good use of parties to dungeon and they can do a fine job with the right buffs. Just like other characters in "level appropriate" content.

One thing that I could entertain is the first ki-strike coming down into the 6ish range to help with quality of life without affecting end game balance, as their pre-teen levels are more challenging than most other classes. Even still, monks, and any other fist fighters, have a great variety of gauntlets to make use of, and the dmg stacking that can happen on said gauntlets is amazing. Nearly enough bring their dmg on par with more conventional tanks. More than adequate considering all the good things monks get in addition.

As with most classes, things are playable when you know what resources are available and when to use them.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 10:37:18 AM by immasturgeon »

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2019, 10:42:23 AM »
The most striking advantage about monks--their blinding speed--seems to me to be isolating on a server that emphasizes group play: to take full advantage of it, the monk must forego the company of other classes.

That's thematic in a way, but to be honest, it is also very useful in group content the higher level you get, as well as seeking out RP and minimising time spent between areas where people are RPing. The monk basically teleports to where the casters are and just kills them with 5+ APR (first strike, cleave, AoO, flurry, haste all being full AB). It also means they can flee very safely without needing to ever dodge an AoO, which, for some classes who have to decide whether to wait for the right moment to walk out of combat or risk the AoO, is pretty nice. This class can gather every herb in a map and still reach the destination before the rest of the group. They can run between hubs without danger at a fraction of the time other classes can, so if one is empty, they can move on to find RP in the next. They can run someone back to be resurrected faster, so that's less time waiting for the rest of the group in the dungeon. It all compounds. It is a massive convenience at worst and at best it's a great boost that has a lot of synergy with the rest of not only your kit, but your team too.

That sounds good in theory, but we also play in an environment prone to lag, crashes, and other bugs. A class relying on precision and timing is more likely to fall victim to these hazards.

Do you play a high level monk? Going by what I've observed, at least, they tend to be (as one would expect for the class) loners who have to work harder than most to find groups and a place to fit--which is the greatest challenge IMO on the server. Compare, for example, the versatility and adaptability of a bard.

I don't know that the class needs buffing, especially this change. But to me the most objective measure of whether a class is "in a good place" is how many players are choosing to play the class. I've never seen a big clamor for monks, and instead have seen many new players choose the class early on with great enthusiasm and then abandon the PC in frustration. (Most everyone seems to concede that in the early stages monk life is difficult.)

To veer even farther from Ken's slight suggestion, my own preference is that Devs continue to focus on fixing what we have and enhancing the general experience of the server with changes that impact the greatest number of PCs. If something is egregiously wrong with a class, then maybe that deserves attention. Most classes, however, I know too little about to speak to.
Only one or two of those things I mentioned really require precision of any kind, anyway, and I don't think there's much precision in waiting for your number to be up then clicking on a caster from across the room and just watching it die. You don't even need Knockdown chains to win. For reference, the characters I play require me to be up in the enemy's face to deal damage but also leave combat to heal others. I have to click on the ground more than I have to click on enemies both on my melee and my ranged character, or I'll trigger a series of instant death AoOs, or run into melee combat with a longbow out, or waste a spell... etc. and that is what real positioning precision looks like.

Neither of these characters are anywhere close to optimal and they are hybridized in a way that provides party utility over personal specialisation. Pures wipe me out mechanically, rendering my characters superfluous to any task at hand. I'd like to think besides their unique support roles in a party, they end up in groups for other reasons. If there's a Monk that people like being around, he'll end up in a group too.

Just so happens Monks need support--as do Barbarians, Fighters, anyone really, when things get challenging, needs a mix of Divine and Arcane support, crafted gear, and good loot. My support characters play fairly often with Monks, and I love watching them zoom around and tie enemies up. They benefit more from it than any other class because of the number of APR they throw out. I've seen them churn enemies like nothing else and tank like maniacs. A Monk only 2 levels above me once punched my 14 CON character as a joke and half my HP disappeared because 2 attacks triggered simultaneously, and neither were critical hits. I want more Monks in my parties, they've always been more than sufficient contributors, who require no more support than anyone else (simply a different kind of support--different spell choices, etc.) but make great use of what they're given, and their characters are generally eccentric in a way that is intriguing to me.

That said, if they do have a particularly weak early game, sure, they could get some help there. But I have not observed them having an especially weak early game, in fact, I have watched them get by decently well, usually as their only backup as a healer, buffer, flank, or tank. I think there are some things that could be changed about them, but what? A d10 hit die? They have a lot of utility as is, they make great sneaks, crafters of all types... they might not be Bards but my experience playing with Monks has generally been positive, so I don't really know what they need, but I'm coming from the perspective of someone who thinks PvP is always going to be unbalanced, even in terms of two people swinging at each other in the Mist Camp, letting the dice decide their fate. But in so many categories listed above, they excel or they do fine like anyone else. Perhaps I'm biased because I exclusively play party support and I make sure my Monks are getting their uniques, which I learned from running with them often. These characters are long time NWN players, though, and that kind of enlightenment is particularly important, as this class needs to be built and played a certain way.
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Leezil

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2019, 10:59:37 AM »
I don't know that the class needs buffing, especially this change. But to me the most objective measure of whether a class is "in a good place" is how many players are choosing to play the class.

It's not an objective measure for a roleplaying server where many people are weighing more than mechanics in their decisions.
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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2019, 12:21:11 PM »
I don't know that the class needs buffing, especially this change. But to me the most objective measure of whether a class is "in a good place" is how many players are choosing to play the class.

It's not an objective measure for a roleplaying server where many people are weighing more than mechanics in their decisions.

Sure it is. First, an objective measure doesn't need to capture everything to be objective. A number is objective. Full stop.

You can dispute whether it is "most objective"--although I did qualify with "to me" :)

To respond to your point, regardless of which factors players weigh in their decision, the decision is still binary: do they choose to play the class or not? That decision captures the totality of their thinking, including RP and mechanics and the rewards of each.

For example, ECL is a huge mechanical detriment. But when players ask that the ECL be softened, the Team inevitably responds that those races are to be granted primarily for the RP reward and not the mechanical advantage.

Paladins have RP restrictions and huge penalties for falling because of the class's mechanical advantages.

Prestige Classes carry inherent "bling" that is partly the reason for the burden of applying, not necessarily that they are all mechanically advantageous or should be.

All of those factors should be weighed when evaluating whether a class is "balanced"--and wise players do so in making their playing decisions.

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2019, 01:01:48 PM »
I do play a very high level monk currently and I don't see necessity to give monks ability to penetrate x/+4 damage reduction. What I'd want to see to be done to Ki strike feat is small adjustment of level when the feat is given first time. Let it be level five or six.

As for other opinions stated regarding various aspects of monk's pros and cons ... I'll tell this: monk's main advantage is her speed. Not only speed of movement, but also a speed of attacks represented as number of the attacks, but in comparison with pnp nwn crippled that important ability for martial/melee class. Flurry of blows is implemented, but it's not this:
Quote
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

Greater flurry isn't implemented either.
Quote
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

Sadly, PoTM developers can not add neither of flurry adjustments listed above. These feats are hardcoded. That brings another question to my mind. If perhaps the main ability of a class does not work properly, perhaps class' martial prowess can be altered in other ways.
My suggestion is to give monk opportunity to pick Martial Supremacy feat not on lvl 20, but rather at 13 (the worst lvl in entire monk progression) or at 14, when all other melee classes get a first chance to pick it.

That certainly wouldn't be a gamebreaking change, just +1 ab in the mid lvls, but it'll help.

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2019, 01:07:06 PM »
I don't know that the class needs buffing, especially this change. But to me the most objective measure of whether a class is "in a good place" is how many players are choosing to play the class.

It's not an objective measure for a roleplaying server where many people are weighing more than mechanics in their decisions.

Sure it is. First, an objective measure doesn't need to capture everything to be objective. A number is objective. Full stop.

You can dispute whether it is "most objective"--although I did qualify with "to me" :)

To respond to your point, regardless of which factors players weigh in their decision, the decision is still binary: do they choose to play the class or not? That decision captures the totality of their thinking, including RP and mechanics and the rewards of each.

For example, ECL is a huge mechanical detriment. But when players ask that the ECL be softened, the Team inevitably responds that those races are to be granted primarily for the RP reward and not the mechanical advantage.

Paladins have RP restrictions and huge penalties for falling because of the class's mechanical advantages.

Prestige Classes carry inherent "bling" that is partly the reason for the burden of applying, not necessarily that they are all mechanically advantageous or should be.

All of those factors should be weighed when evaluating whether a class is "balanced"--and wise players do so in making their playing decisions.

That logic doesn't really follow to me. The number of people playing a class is an objective fact, yes, but one can't just project on other players and make assumptions about the reasons for those numbers.
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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2019, 01:08:48 PM »
Monks should lose duels.  Standing and fighting in a duel is literally the form of combat that cancels out the Monk's main advantage, the ability to not be pinned down.

The problem is, the fact that Monks can grind and get Hearts of the Beast means that actually they can punch way above their weight in duels, and PvP in general.

So monks can achieve full AB, combine that with Flurry of Blows, and effectively have +10 AC over their PnP counterparts; they're already incredibly stronger than their PnP counterparts.

+10 AC from tumble and parry I assume? It's a great bonus indeed but not one that is exclusive to monks. When assessing bonuses, one should always do so in the context of the server, because if everyone gets 2 to 4 extra AC from tumble (depending on whether or not it is a class skill for the character) then encounters will be balanced with that in mind. And remember, this AC doesn't come for free. You have to spend points in two skills for that. If we are to compare the pnp monk with the Potm one, then we also have to consider that the pnp one gets two full skills and a few more skill points than the Potm one, because he doesn't have to max out parry and discipline, which don't exist in pnp but are core combat skills here (technically you can skip them but you'd have to be crazy) and could leave tumble to 14 after dex modifier with no need for a base rank of 20 since he wouldn't get AC out of it. All these skill points are just as many points the Potm monk can't put towards other skills if he wants to be effective in combat. Skills that could have been used for other things than surviving combat, such as influence.

Also, bear in mind that this AC gain is mitigated by the fact that items with attribute bonuses don't exist here, and monks are dependant on wis and dex bonuses for AC. Yes, you can momentarily boost these with consumables but it isn't nearly as powerful as constantly having these bonuses. As for full BAB, well yes for a pvp fight, eating a heart of the beast for 17 rounds of full BAB will do. But I'd hate the server's balance to be based on PVP, when it represents such a tiny portion of our playtime.

I don't think monks should win every duel, nor should any class really, but to say they're not supposed to fight in this way seems preposterous to me. Yes, monks are very fast, but you can't actually hit and run effectively in NWN unless you have stealth so what are they supposed to do if they don't have stealth (and no, stealth skills, while nice, shouldn't be considered core skills for the class; no sneak attacks or particular advantage for stealth besides fast walk speed, nor is every monk flavored to be some kind of ninja )? Yes, they could run and gun instead but this is hardly what a traditional monk is designed to do.

That being said I do think the monk is very strong here when buffed enough. I'd really love it though if they had the option to use charisma instead of wisdom for their class abilities. There are precedents for that in pnp and that would make it much easier to build a leader type monk using their influence class skill.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 02:08:47 PM by nostalgicsamurai »

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2019, 01:33:58 PM »
That logic doesn't really follow to me. The number of people playing a class is an objective fact, yes, but one can't just project on other players and make assumptions about the reasons for those numbers.

I'm not projecting anything or assuming anything except that players are free agents and are making reasonably informed choices.

To illustrate the logic in its most simple case, imagine you have only fighters and wizards to choose from. If all players choose wizards and no players choose fighters, which class would you look at possibly needing improving?


...

Regarding dueling, I brought that up only because Nemesis said "an end game monk will slap the teeth right out of the face of a paladin at lvl 20 in a straight up fight." I'm not arguing that the monk should win such duels, but that the situation does not seem as one-sided as Nem's example describes.

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Leezil

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2019, 02:15:00 PM »
That logic doesn't really follow to me. The number of people playing a class is an objective fact, yes, but one can't just project on other players and make assumptions about the reasons for those numbers.

I'm not projecting anything or assuming anything except that players are free agents and are making reasonably informed choices.

To illustrate the logic in its most simple case, imagine you have only fighters and wizards to choose from. If all players choose wizards and no players choose fighters, which class would you look at possibly needing improving?

I might consider that there are more reasons than mechanical ones for people choosing only fighters. Maybe less people enjoy the wizard RP.
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Socha

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Re: Monk Ki Strike Change
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2019, 05:33:06 PM »
But I'd like an actual monk player to chime in and explain how they're not insanely good in the context of the server. It's just a waiting game and if your character can live long enough, you achieve mechanical nirvana.

Context is a bit vague. There's PVE, PVP, and general things you do in between (quality of life, general NWN experience)

I'm pretty sure that most classes look powerful when you examine them at max level.
Compared to bards, clerics and wizards that can steamroll the server both in PVE and PVP due to the casting power that take them light years ahead of mundane classes in terms of self-reliance, monk is definitely weaker in active combat by themselves. They can survive pretty much anything you throw at them if they pay attention, but it doesn't mean they'll overcome any serious threat in PVE or PVP either because that survival generally involves running away and living to fight smarter another day.

In terms of quality of life though, I'd rate them second to none since you don't have a whole lot to worry about. Itemization is straightforward even if expensive (~200-250k if you want the good loot). Speed lets you move around from hub to hub and generally you can get more things done for the time you put in. Having carry weight is also nice.

If survival is your top priority, then yes the class is insanely good. If you want to actually impose your might on other players in PVP or on a PVE dungeon in a party context, just play a bard, cleric, wizard, or paladin, or even a STR ranger, and you'll be miles ahead.

As a side note, I don't think Ki-Strike particularly needs a buff. The fact they get DR Piercing 3 is already good considering other mundane classes have access to adamantine weaponry (which gives AB and DMG, not just DR Piercing at a hefty financial cost), and casters get Greater Magic Weapon on tap to pump EB to +4. Paladins and Rangers are the only ones with access to +5 if I'm not mistaken (Holy Sword and Banebow).
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