[Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats

[Hypatia]

I don’t think I’d put glass cannon under power build. Power builds to me are your spell casting tanks who can do it all. Smash for high dps, have a huge AC and can self repair and utility. Glass cannons are niche characters, good for party dynamics who depend on others for everything but the smashing.

By vesitile, I meant being able to use any weapon with near the same level of compitency, and have that competency be higher than when a weapon master switches to his non focused weapon. Example. Let’s say the weapon master whose good at a great sword comes up against something that’s highly resistant to his sword, he has a problem because he’s terrible with hammers, whereas a fighter who may get outpaced all day in damage by the WM suddenly gets to shine, because he can switch to a hammer without loosing much effectiveness.

This just seems to me a good way to help pure fighters have their own niche, even if it’s not on par with other classes in power. Could be cool to have weapon family focuses you could choose, so instead of “improved weapon focus” you get “two-hander focus” or “sheild fighter focus” that applies the +1 ab bonus to all 2-handers or one handed weapons respectively. You’d need 8 levels in fighter for it, but would be a nice touch for added versatility.

[Khornite]

Am I saying melee classes need a huge boost? Nah. But something to keep up with casters with all the new spells they've gotten would be nice.

?

Clerics have had a series of nerfs since I've been playing one and wizards as well, to a lesser degree. Fighters, in contrast, have been improved.

That is not to counter my previous concession that pure fighter remains a very challenging class, but not all casters have been receiving buffs recently.

Since I've started playing here like ten years ago, I've seen the opposite. I actually killed off my cleric here because there was no challenge to them. You learn how to work your spells and get the right person to fill in the gaps (A bard or druid usually), low 50s AB is not that hard on a cleric (Mid 50s with Zen Archery). Factor in that clerics have amazing crowd control spells and underappreciated DPS on their ranged spells in PVP and even aren't that bad in PVE? Clerics are probably the toughest class to crack on NWN and D&D as a whole if you know how to run them and use the proper spells to bait the responses out of opponents in PVP, a lot of the tactics are still viable on POTM. Even more so on POTM when you realize that...what? Over HALF the dungeons on the server are populated by undead? The one category that clerics excel at ripping apart? You can literally wade into the Cursts and gather every enemy in the place, drop two Storms of Vengeance and spam Mass Heals to clear the entire dungeon without much trouble. Yeah, it requires breaking into some cheese tactics, but you can't argue the results.

So yes. "Teehee".

[APorg]

The weird thing about WM is it's more versatile than pure fighter in a variety of ways.

How much of that is derived from the fact that most WMs take Rogue levels?

Pure Fighter can probably get Greater Specialisation in two or three weapons, e.g. a melee option or two and a ranged option. Ignoring Rogue levels, WMs will have one option that really shines, and the rest won't be particularly good -- at least nowhere a Fighter with Greater Specialisation.

But factoring in Rogue levels doesn't really say much about Weaponmasters; it says a lot about how Rogue/Fighter is way stronger than pure Fighter.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I don’t think I’d put glass cannon under power build. Power builds to me are your spell casting tanks who can do it all. Smash for high dps, have a huge AC and can self repair and utility. Glass cannons are niche characters, good for party dynamics who depend on others for everything but the smashing.

By vesitile, I meant being able to use any weapon with near the same level of compitency, and have that competency be higher than when a weapon master switches to his non focused weapon. Example. Let’s say the weapon master whose good at a great sword comes up against something that’s highly resistant to his sword, he has a problem because he’s terrible with hammers, whereas a fighter who may get outpaced all day in damage by the WM suddenly gets to shine, because he can switch to a hammer without loosing much effectiveness.

This just seems to me a good way to help pure fighters have their own niche, even if it’s not on par with other classes in power. Could be cool to have weapon family focuses you could choose, so instead of “improved weapon focus” you get “two-hander focus” or “sheild fighter focus” that applies the +1 ab bonus to all 2-handers or one handed weapons respectively. You’d need 8 levels in fighter for it, but would be a nice touch for added versatility.

I had just edited my post to add on some more about the latter part of your post, because I do agree, but I'll add more on here in direct response to the beginning. Sorry for the confusion if this causes any.

The glass cannon comment specifically refers to an illusion that is put up by certain builds wherein they look limited and non-threatening, but in reality they are devastating and can't be countered at the one thing they're good at. It relates to an issue we're having defining who is more powerful, with mundanes in a server like this, who can have dozens of potions, consumables, and scrolls in their inventory, and all they need is to consume 2-3 of those and fling a dispel scroll (which will come out at full level) and those spellcasters who can do it all (because of dungeons which are not able to adapt to the enemy, regardless of the game's poor AI; positioning, terrain, traps, lack of enemy variety, etc. are what cause these dungeons to be soloable) will suddenly not look so sturdy or threatening. On the other hand, the high level spellcaster has way too much going for them, but without the removal of the 9th circle, or even just Time Stop, and a rebalance for IGMS and other uncounterable strikes, that's not going to change, ever. These classes have a different set of weaknesses which unfortunately mount in a way where the incentive always leans toward catching people off guard (like stealth or hasted ambushes). I don't like that, because it reflects more on the willingness to be the one to initiate combat unexpectedly, even while others are busy typing, to gain the upper hand, and the way this reflects on the player's skill makes the term PvP very literal and, in my opinion, very unfitting to what RP is supposed to be about, even if conflict is hard to resolve in other ways. Dungeons do not have this problem, everyone gets to do their part almost always, everyone knows combat is joined, and whether the characters are utility-based, combat-based, or hybridised characters, they're a part of what's happening. It's true in some dungeons certain characters really struggle and it's also true that some builds aren't going to be good in a dungeon at all but these are outlier cases.

The requirements for that feat would probably have to be a bit steeper in my opinion. A weapon master could feasibly take it, and make things a bit weird, even if he's losing his WM abilities to switch it up. I would want to see it open up on at least 11 or 12 fighter, but of course, the rogue multiclassers are still going to take it, because rogues like versatility, too. It's a difficult fight to win. It's like these classes were made to be mixed with one another, it really is. But no one is going to play fighter to 16 just to say they did so they can take some lackluster "equaliser" abilities, imo. I don't know why people make pure fighters, maybe they just really like feats, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it, I just think it's a bit limiting and it does not seem to be an intended design.

but you can't argue the results.

So yes. "Teehee".

I can't do this on Shannon but I do enjoy adventuring on that character a lot even so. I'm not sure what awaits her at 20, of course, but soloing hurts my soul. Somehow, Esmeralda, as a noncombatant, is just as fun, but in other ways. I just wish I had the time for both characters, I'm an alt hopper like that who likes to play different roles in each party. This may offer insight to the way my posts are written too (I'm just here for the ride and want power levels normalised a bit, rather than having everyone be made OP).

The weird thing about WM is it's more versatile than pure fighter in a variety of ways.

How much of that is derived from the fact that most WMs take Rogue levels?

Pure Fighter can probably get Greater Specialisation in two or three weapons, e.g. a melee option or two and a ranged option. Ignoring Rogue levels, WMs will have one melee option that really shines, and the rest won't be particularly good.

But factoring in Rogue levels doesn't really say much about Weaponmasters; it says a lot about how Rogue/Fighter is way stronger than pure Fighter.

It does, but also, a fighter does not need to take rogue to make it as a WM, he just probably will because he, like you said, is stronger with rogue levels. With or without WM, it just makes so much sense to get a few rogue levels in there. I don't think that can be repaired--they just seem made for each other.

[APorg]

It does, but also, a fighter does not need to take rogue to make it as a WM, he just probably will because he, like you said, is stronger with rogue levels. With or without WM, it just makes so much sense to get a few rogue levels in there.

Right, the exact same thing can be said of Fighter/WM vs Rogue/Fighter/WM. The versatility and power of off-Fighter builds comes down to Rogue levels; Weaponmaster will at least always be strictly worse than Fighter when fighting things that are immune to criticals.

[SardineTheAncestor]

To someone like me who is addicted to multiclassing with rogue levels, the other gains are huge. A few less hits here and there I'm willing to take, all for the chance to be able to spread skill points around. Like I posted a while ago, I think that is one of the strengths of fighter. To come in with a bunch of feats and just pick another class to round out. I don't think the example you posted for GWF on multiple weapons is a bad one; it's kind of the only option unless someone wants to load up on Polyglot feats or something, and then we're back to "why remove the INT requirement when it benefits you even without the feats?" which I don't think is going to go anywhere.

[APorg]

My point was merely to observe that it was misleading to use Weaponmaster as a benchmark for versatility.

[Iridni Ren]

The glass cannon comment specifically refers to an illusion that is put up by certain builds wherein they look limited and non-threatening, but in reality they are devastating and can't be countered at the one thing they're good at. It relates to an issue we're having defining who is more powerful, with mundanes in a server like this, who can have dozens of potions, consumables, and scrolls in their inventory, and all they need is to consume 2-3 of those and fling a dispel scroll (which will come out at full level) and those spellcasters who can do it all (because of dungeons which are not able to adapt to the enemy, regardless of the game's poor AI; positioning, terrain, traps, lack of enemy variety, etc. are what cause these dungeons to be soloable) will suddenly not look so sturdy or threatening....These classes have a different set of weaknesses which unfortunately mount in a way where the incentive always leans toward catching people off guard (like stealth or hasted ambushes).

Yes

[Khornite]

To someone like me who is addicted to multiclassing with rogue levels, the other gains are huge. A few less hits here and there I'm willing to take, all for the chance to be able to spread skill points around.

Yep, three or four levels in rogue will drastically improve any melee class. You get all that tumble AC, and then UMD if you want, then sneak attack and whatever nifty skills you want tacked on to it, making that 14 int on a fighter/barbarian a LOT more useful. You can even save the skill points for later if you want to fill up some of your fighter or barbarian skills that you couldn't earlier on top of also getting Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and if you take a few levels of barbarian, you can even add Uncanny Dodge II, make up for most of the HP lost by going Rogue and still only sacrifice 1 point of AB by skirting past the multiclass rule and not having to take Rogue to 5. It a LOT better than the purist fighter feats like Overwhelming Crit and Armor Skin.

And even then, how good is Overwhelming Crit when most dungeons are undead?

[Kinga]

And even then, how good is Overwhelming Crit when most dungeons are undead?

I didn't want to post in this thread, but this changed my mind.

Ever since I started out as a fighter and then weapon master, I was repeatedly told that my character is "underpowered" and pointless in the server when half of dungeons are filled with crit immune mobs. Taking that character from level 2 to 17 showed me quite clearly that people who think in that way are simply wrong. True, critical hits are useless against undead, but there are only few classes which can thrive in such dungeons, mainly paladins and clerics. The rest of us needs buffs. However, against living targets,critical hits are devastating. As an example: a group composed of a sorcerer, two weapon masters and bard, whose part I was, managed to clear desert trolls on high spawn in what? Six minutes?

POTM allows us to create a variety of builds and characters, which don't always have to be optimal. Fighters are by all means just that - fighters. People who picked up weapon one day and decided to start a life as an adventurer. Of course they are underpowered - they are mundane in the world of magic. This is why, like all characters, they have to adapt to their surroundings. Fighters are a perfect material for mutliclass and to be honest, I can't understand why someone would be a pure fighter with very few useful skills and a multitude of feats, when they can instead spice it up with any other class and make it so much more interesting.

The intelligence requirement is supposed to reflect character's quick thinking and ability to make sound decisions in a stressful scenario. If someone is unhappy with the fact that they have to put an extra few points into intelligence, ask yourself - is your character an ordinary thug, who just likes to whack people with their sword or something more? It's completely fine, if someone wants to rp as said thug, but even then you can simply pick to be Barbarian using halabard, or just clench your teeth and continue to play the concept you picked, even if it's not the most optimal.

In other words, do what you enjoy.

[Iridni Ren]

And even then, how good is Overwhelming Crit when most dungeons are undead?

No one has to take the feat if it seems underpowered, but consider that in vanilla NWN it requires epic level and 23+ Str, while doing less damage than it does here.

Nor is it normally gated only to fighters.

On balance, I think it's a pretty tasty PvP bone that's already been thrown to those who do a pure fighter Str build.

[SardineTheAncestor]

My point was merely to observe that it was misleading to use Weaponmaster as a benchmark for versatility.

My mistake then, approaching it more broadly, a Bard/WM would be making a pretty serious sacrifice in versatility for the sake of specialising. I mostly meant in the context of what would be considered the "usual" build for WM, which, I guess, is coloured by my view of what the "usual" Fighter is going to be.

And even then, how good is Overwhelming Crit when most dungeons are undead?

Six minutes?

In other words, do what you enjoy.

This is where the fighter gets off the underpowered train, for me at least. The options in branching out without sacrificing the vision of that character, without gimping caster level, while being able to pick up a variety of skills, wear most if not all gear on the server for different tasks, etc.

I think we all agree here. All of our characters do well at the things we made them do well at, though we're also very high level. Of course, I think a fighter/rogue feels like it keeps up nicely from what I've observed from them, it doesn't take the entire level-up process to come into its own.

[BraveSirRobin]

'Kay. So.. Three things.

1) Removing the INT requirement from combat feats just makes Rangers and Bards stronger, too. Still outclassing a Fighter.

2) This is a Roleplay server, and generally people are encouraged to maintain relatively tame statlines. Truth is, 14 INT isn't a huge game-changer down the line. You're looking at the difference of a couple points of STR and DEX. As long as you're hitting your feat requirements, 1-2 AB never caused someone to float or sink.

3) PvP-Wise, the Server's meta greatly favors characters who do not need to buff, or can selectively do so and gank. Ganking is prime PvP in PoTM, nobody just stares at eachother while casting 10 turns' worth of buffs and goes unhindered. That's where Fighters, per se, can shine more.

4) For PvE, Fighters are next to none when buffed by a Wizard or a Cleric properly, and fulfill a very strong role in the party.

Fighters aren't going to outclass a Bard, or a Wizard, or a Cleric at their own game of using magic. Fighters can, however -- Especially with 14 INT, cross-class into Rogue and dip into some stealth points and hang around, then dip out of Stealth fully-buffed after reading their personal scroll collection to ruin someone's day. Fighters can invest fully into their melee weapon, defensive feats, and then go ahead and nab some extra feats for defense, and hell, pick up a pistol and the flintlock tree -- And not a break a single sweat. My character? I wish they were a fighter, sometimes, I can't fit in everything I want them to do with their current skillset.


Fighters alone aren't able to do much, true. But that's not due to their INT, that's use to the usage of UMD and Spellcasting in general. Fortunately, Fighters are more viable now than ever with the broad array of tools on the server. They can pick up a firearm and master it, and still go on with around 20-21 feats to spare. They can take Improved Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike, and walk around with no weapons out whilst benefitting from +6 Shield AC, and +10 Other AC from Improved Expertise. While wearing their full set of enchanted gear. Then they can draw their sword, and go from +6 Shield AC, to +9 Shield AC-- That's 19 AC they can just chill with at any given point, on top of their regular gear loadout. Scrolls aren't that expensive, in the long term, and with all of the potions that exist now, they don't even need scrolls as much as they used to.

I don't think the INT requirement from combat feats being removed would aid in any way to make the class more 'viable,' I just think it would lend to more min-max'ing for a point or two more STR or DEX. Even if you could acquire those feats you want, you're going to be outclassed in every way by a Rogue/Fighter with a 5-15 spread just because they're more flexible than you are. On top of the fact you're now short two more skills because you're probably 10 Intelligence, they get more skills in general, which allows them to take things like UMD, Antagonize, Concentration, Discipline, some kind of detection skill, or stealth skills. With UMD, they can use any item in the game bar a few, cast any scroll from their inventory at you and self-buff better than you can with just potions. Fighter as a lone class doesn't thrive well in PoTM because you're adventuring into evil, magical, hallowed halls of things a Fighter isn't equipped to deal with, and needs to defer to someone else magical to aid him.

[zDark Shadowz]

Wow, this thread really kicked off again after being necroed by that now deleted italian post.

[Arawn]

Yeah, the discussion's been had and we aren't going to do this. Gonna lock it so we don't go back over the same content again.