Monk's Lack of Options, Versatility, and Customization

[Retrofuturist]

Every class can customize their characters with different layouts of abilities, skills, backgrounds, focuses, and play-styles -- so why are Monks and Paladins singled out in not being able to multiclass?

In a nutshell, the sentence above is why you are coming across as actually arguing about multiclassing. Do you see how your question doesn't flow logically from your premise?

Yes...every class can do the things you list--including monks and paladins. And if you want to do those things on a monk, nothing restricts you.

I've made several arguments, and I've tried repeatedly to drive the conversation towards one of them, and have even elaborated on that point in several posts to help drive its discussion. But most people have brought it back to multiclassing, so that's what I've been focusing on. Heck, people have even quoted my other argument, didn't address a single word of it, and then broached the multiclassing topic again. I don't mind it that much because I've enjoyed discussing this topic, but it feels a little unfair to say that I'm the one who keeps bringing multiclassing up.

My premise is that Monk has fewer options than other classes. That isn't usually an issue, because Monks will naturally have fewer options than other classes, but their inability to multiclass makes it one. I can think of two solutions to this theoretical diversity problem: give them class feature options or let them multiclass again. If that wasn't clear, I apologize -- I know my first post was rather wall of text-y, and that was after I trimmed it down. I probably left some important bits out.

The only time I can think of where I was the one to bring up multiclassing outside of my opening post was when someone more or less restated the first part of my premise -- I just repeated it there for clarification's sake.

MAB has already provided the Dev answer to your question, if you ask it without the obfuscating preface:

This rule against the multiclassing of monk into other standard classes dates back from the early days of the server, nearly 15 years ago already. Back then, monk multiclassing was widely abused to make insanely strong built. The rule was made to stop that trend. It is unlikely to be rescinded.

The server has quite a variety of settings to choose from. We are allowed to take many more feats than is typical. (Monks also receive more feats for free.)  As far as play styles, I've seen monk PCs vary quite a bit, and that's in good part up to your own creativity.

And has been pointed out several times...prestige classes give monk PCs other options and ways to develop.

If you want to argue about whether monks should be allowed to multiclass, then you need to address the reason it's not allowed. Undoubtedly, allowing them to multiclass with other base classes would give monk PCs more options. So that position can't be refuted. But to make your case you need to respond to the actual reason it's not allowed (i.e., the reason isn't Devs want to keep players of monks from being creative).

I probably should have made this point earlier, but again, I was trying to drive discussion away from the multiclassing restriction, and I also think it'd be cooler (though more work) if Monks were multiclass restricted, but had more options within the class.

I understand that the multiclass restriction is a mechanical one, but it feels like it unintentionally took away from part of the class's diversity as collateral. Why not make the restriction a little more targeted? You could open up Monk to multiclassing, but require an application for the problematic combos like Monk/Druid. Or you could require an application for any sort of base multiclass Or maybe you could only allow Monk to multiclass to specific base classes, like Rogue and Fighter, but not Sorcerer or Druid. Just a few ideas, but I'm sure there are better ones.

I pretty much agree with Retrofuturist, except deflect arrows being bad. I have Deflect arrows with my non-monk character! which actually is shar worshipping 'monk sorceress' but due server restrictions if forced to be rogue/fighter/wizard.

After all, no matter how much some feat/feature class or race sucks mechanically, if its nice, if it fits you go with it.

Haha, I can see that. I kind of wrote off Deflect Arrows for non-Monk characters, but the reason if feels superfluous on Monk is that they already tend to have very high AC, which will also stop arrows from hitting you without the need of a feat.

[Weyland]

Hi Retro, well I'm not sure if you complained because my statements tend to come off like laserbeams.  But if you actually read what I wrote it makes perfect sense and in the interest of civility I'll elaborate for you.  The very first thing I feel from you is a lack of appreciation for this game that has been developed - Ravenloft PotM- and I really want to suggest that you play on this server with the attitude that it is more like a stand-alone game and try to forgot that it's from Neverwinter Nights and that there are other servers/modules out there.  That's the first thing since you are new and have only been playing for two weeks.

The above is my main point and the second point, about the monk class, I have to oppose the line you take on multi-classing them.  Monks actually used to be special and in fact could only be played by Humans.  In the Players Guide, First Edition, all of the classes are presented in alphabetical order except for the Monk which makes its appearance at the end of the list.   The idea of a halfing monk/rogue or a half-orc monk/fighter seems to spoil the spirit of the Monk's origins as a D&D class.

I think you must be aware that this isn't a high magic server with meaningless death penalties and glowing spectacular magic people running around with bright lights and +5 this and that?  Monks are very useful here, absolutely have their place, and I won't spoil anything for you by revealing any secrets.

[EO]

My premise is that Monk has fewer options than other classes. That isn't usually an issue, because Monks will naturally have fewer options than other classes, but their inability to multiclass makes it one. I can think of two solutions to this theoretical diversity problem: give them class feature options or let them multiclass again. If that wasn't clear, I apologize -- I know my first post was rather wall of text-y, and that was after I trimmed it down. I probably left some important bits out.

There are no plans for the foreseeable future to revise the monk multiclassing rules or mechanical powers. We already gave them more tools and options in previous hak updates. People are encouraged to discuss flavor, mechanics and whatnot but don't expect any mechanical and rule changes arising from these discussions in the short term.

[Gmno]

In a low magic item setting I really don't like the idea of a monk being able to multiclass with other base classes because it becomes pretty insane with how strong some combinations can become. When I joined the server and learned about the restrictions it made me more excited to play a pure monk.

I'd like to see feats that let you take other forms of elemental punching and kicking damage, but once you take one elemental type the others become locked out. I'd also hope for an improved ki blast someday because its just really fun to use. Tongue of the sun and moon would also be very cool, but its really hard to work into a game mechanically like nwn.

[nostalgicsamurai]

Personnaly what I'd really like is an option to use charisma instead of wisdom for monk feats. That would be so cool from an RP point of view. Finally you could make a charismatic "these aren't the droids you're looking for" type of monk without gimping yourself

[Relapse]

Personnaly what I'd really like is an option to use charisma instead of wisdom for monk feats. That would be so cool from an RP point of view. Finally you could make a charismatic "these aren't the droids you're looking for" type of monk without gimping yourself

Sounds like you just need to invest points into influence...

[Iridni Ren]

Personnaly what I'd really like is an option to use charisma instead of wisdom for monk feats. That would be so cool from an RP point of view. Finally you could make a charismatic "these aren't the droids you're looking for" type of monk without gimping yourself

Sounds like you just need to invest points into influence...

Aasimar Monk/Divine Champion?

[nostalgicsamurai]

Influence is not supposed to be a replacement for charisma, though I guess 10 cha+max influence ranks is a good start to distinguish oneself from all the min maxed 8 cha monks without gimping oneself too much. Though, call it vanity but I'd really like to have at least 14 cha for the examine object tool to say that my char has a compelling presence ^^. Unfortunately though there just aren't enough attribute points to do so without dropping physical stats or wis, which would greatly impact combat performance.

Monk/divine champion? Meh, don't like it mechanically and don't feel like applying for a PRC.

I know what I'm suggesting is likely impossible, but I can always dream right?

[Iridni Ren]

I know what I'm suggesting is likely impossible, but I can always dream right?

I looked around the Web, and there are several monk-based prestige classes that would allow charisma-enhanced monks. But if you're not interested in applying, not much point in trying to get Devs to implement one.

You might Google the Tattooed Monk PRC, though, and see what all those tattoos can do!

[nostalgicsamurai]

I know what I'm suggesting is likely impossible, but I can always dream right?

I looked around the Web, and there are several monk-based prestige classes that would allow charisma-enhanced monks. But if you're not interested in applying, not much point in trying to get Devs to implement one.

You might Google the Tattooed Monk PRC, though, and see what all those tattoos can do!

Well admiteddly, I'd be much more interested in applying if there was a PRC that I felt really added to my concept.

Tattooed monk looks really cool, and the bellflower tattoo seems especially useful for a charisma focused monk, though one round per class level would be really too short for nwn, especially given that using a tattoo is not considered a free action. It does look like a prc I would be very interested in it if it was implemented with reworked durations though.

In the end though, such a prc will probably only get implemented if there is a strong demand for it from several players.