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Author Topic: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats  (Read 7849 times)

nostalgicsamurai

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[Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« on: November 05, 2019, 09:27:10 AM »
So, I don't know if many people would agree but I think removing the int requirement from combat feats such as improved parry, improved knockdown and improved disarm as well as combat expertise would both make a lot of sense from an RP point of view and increase character variety, even though it would not be true to pnp.

First, realistically, learning such combat techniques doesn't have much to do with being particularly clever. You would generally learn with a mentor, who shows you the techniques and then you practice them until they become second nature. Doesn't take much brains to do that, only training.

Second, the current situation strongly encourages every warrior build to go for 13+ int, with the exception of paladins, who are already MAD. This doesn't make sense. Why would your average barbarian wielding a two handed weapon have 14 int? If someone wants to go against stereotypes and roll a smart tactician type barbarian, that's cool, but it shouldn't be expected of them in order to be good at what they do, ditto for other warriors. Of course, they could then use those extra attribute points on their physical stats for powergaming, others would still take 14 int for skills and languages, but we might also see more people spending points on wisdom and charisma for roleplay, which would be great for diversity.

What do you all think?

immasturgeon

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2019, 09:35:18 AM »
Def think this is a bad idea.

Just taking your barbarian example, it is the intelligent one that learns to defend himself with advanced techniques. The wild one would just ignore defenses and go for the pounding.

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2019, 09:38:36 AM »
I agree with the premise for some of the feats--knocking someone down effectively requires an above average IQ?--but I think the change would be detrimental to game balance. I would not support it for Improved Parry.

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nostalgicsamurai

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2019, 09:49:47 AM »
Def think this is a bad idea.

Just taking your barbarian example, it is the intelligent one that learns to defend himself with advanced techniques. The wild one would just ignore defenses and go for the pounding.

All barbarians are supposed to be wild. That's what makes them barbarians and not fighters. And being intelligent or stupid has nothing to do with one being wild (if anything, this would be more of a wisdom thing: you're wise enough to realise that you need to survive in order to defeat your opponents and you have a good eye to see incoming attacks). Making barbarians unable to use expertise while raging would adress the issue IMO
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 10:03:07 AM by nostalgicsamurai »

Kleomenes

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2019, 10:08:32 AM »
I think the Int requirement should stay, but in the interests of disclosure, I am player of a High Int (and Cha!) barbarian.

 

zDark Shadowz

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2019, 10:59:38 AM »
Everyone gets free KD & Disarm. Monk does get trained in IKD regardless of int, as does Ranger with Improved Two Weapon Fighting. So there already are examples of appropriate training bypassing intelligence.

Its also a D&D 3.0 game where these exact feats follow the source materiaĺ and they do require intelligence. So people dont make 16 16 16 str/dex/con builds and then somehow also get the ability to apply their smarts in combat for tactical thinking.

You're also right, why would barbarian go 14 int? In D&D there's actually a thing where 'while you are raging' you cant actually use intelligence based combat feats at all!

People can spin things in different angles but, INT required for advanced combat feats matches the D&D 3.0 requirements, PROMOTES balanced builds where str/dex/con isn't the be all end all of attribute allocation and there are already accommodations for acquiring combat feats without the intelligence by following the correct courses.

There's a lot of reasons for keeping the intelligence requirements. They're for intelligent characters. People that have the wherewithal to manage two swords at once without having them bang together, to follow precise arts of their blades, working out with quick thinking how best to apply proper leverage against a larger opponent, planning in advance where their opponent will have their blade next so they can appropriately disarm their opponents without leaving an openings, to consistently fight defensively in combat where you adapt to your opponents style to deflect their blades.

INT-based combat feats represent fighting smart. If you have low INT you can't RP being something you arent, that's cheesing.

Yes you can be trained. But INT is a representation of your ability to learn. Applying that knowledge in the middle of changing combat situations to keep using your knowledge 'effectively' is an INT-based skill. People with low INT could use their training of skills they cant properly apply to teach others those same feats, but they themselves aren't able to use them to their full potential. Because they aren't smart, and that's part of the roleplay of playing a low intelligence character. Some people aren't blessed with that kind of talent.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 11:01:51 AM by zDark Shadowz »

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2019, 11:25:55 AM »
Everyone gets free KD & Disarm. Monk does get trained in IKD regardless of int, as does Ranger with Improved Two Weapon Fighting. So there already are examples of appropriate training bypassing intelligence.

Its also a D&D 3.0 game where these exact feats follow the source materiaĺ and they do require intelligence. So people dont make 16 16 16 str/dex/con builds and then somehow also get the ability to apply their smarts in combat for tactical thinking.

You're also right, why would barbarian go 14 int? In D&D there's actually a thing where 'while you are raging' you cant actually use intelligence based combat feats at all!

People can spin things in different angles but, INT required for advanced combat feats matches the D&D 3.0 requirements, PROMOTES balanced builds where str/dex/con isn't the be all end all of attribute allocation and there are already accommodations for acquiring combat feats without the intelligence by following the correct courses.

There's a lot of reasons for keeping the intelligence requirements. They're for intelligent characters. People that have the wherewithal to manage two swords at once without having them bang together, to follow precise arts of their blades, working out with quick thinking how best to apply proper leverage against a larger opponent, planning in advance where their opponent will have their blade next so they can appropriately disarm their opponents without leaving an openings, to consistently fight defensively in combat where you adapt to your opponents style to deflect their blades.

INT-based combat feats represent fighting smart. If you have low INT you can't RP being something you arent, that's cheesing.

Yes you can be trained. But INT is a representation of your ability to learn. Applying that knowledge in the middle of changing combat situations to keep using your knowledge 'effectively' is an INT-based skill. People with low INT could use their training of skills they cant properly apply to teach others those same feats, but they themselves aren't able to use them to their full potential. Because they aren't smart, and that's part of the roleplay of playing a low intelligence character. Some people aren't blessed with that kind of talent.

Well said!
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nostalgicsamurai

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2019, 12:06:29 PM »
Everyone gets free KD & Disarm. Monk does get trained in IKD regardless of int, as does Ranger with Improved Two Weapon Fighting. So there already are examples of appropriate training bypassing intelligence.

Its also a D&D 3.0 game where these exact feats follow the source materiaĺ and they do require intelligence. So people dont make 16 16 16 str/dex/con builds and then somehow also get the ability to apply their smarts in combat for tactical thinking.

You're also right, why would barbarian go 14 int? In D&D there's actually a thing where 'while you are raging' you cant actually use intelligence based combat feats at all!

People can spin things in different angles but, INT required for advanced combat feats matches the D&D 3.0 requirements, PROMOTES balanced builds where str/dex/con isn't the be all end all of attribute allocation and there are already accommodations for acquiring combat feats without the intelligence by following the correct courses.

There's a lot of reasons for keeping the intelligence requirements. They're for intelligent characters. People that have the wherewithal to manage two swords at once without having them bang together, to follow precise arts of their blades, working out with quick thinking how best to apply proper leverage against a larger opponent, planning in advance where their opponent will have their blade next so they can appropriately disarm their opponents without leaving an openings, to consistently fight defensively in combat where you adapt to your opponents style to deflect their blades.

INT-based combat feats represent fighting smart. If you have low INT you can't RP being something you arent, that's cheesing.

Yes you can be trained. But INT is a representation of your ability to learn. Applying that knowledge in the middle of changing combat situations to keep using your knowledge 'effectively' is an INT-based skill. People with low INT could use their training of skills they cant properly apply to teach others those same feats, but they themselves aren't able to use them to their full potential. Because they aren't smart, and that's part of the roleplay of playing a low intelligence character. Some people aren't blessed with that kind of talent.

I did recognize this wouldn't be true to pnp. That being said nwn as well as this server deviate from pnp in a lot of ways.

Knowing how to fight defensively or to disarm someone effectively isn't "tactical thinking", just fighting skills. Knowing when to use said skills, now that is tactical thinking.

As for fighting smartly, having practiced martial arts a few years myself, I feel it has little to do with intelligence, as in "the stat that allows you to learn languages and do math". It's much more of an intuitive thing. Again, if a stat has to be correlated with combat smarts, wisdom is more appropriate IMO.

If it is about preventing people from dumping all their points into the physical stats, then why make all the general combat feats dependant on int? Why can't wise or charismatic warriors have equally interesting combat options? (Things that are only available to one or a few specific classes such as divine might or the charisma fighter feats notwitstanding).

You say a low int char could teach these skills to others but not be able to use them to their full potential himself. I'd say it's the contrary. A high int char may be a very good teacher for such things, having analyzed the techniques and being able to explain exactly how and why they work, while maybe not being the best fighter himself due to lack of actual combat experience or physical fitness, while a seasoned low INT warrior might be skilled at using those techniques but not be the best teacher. He knows this works, he knows how to make it work, but he can't explain it.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 12:25:38 PM by nostalgicsamurai »

zDark Shadowz

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2019, 12:34:40 PM »
There are many combat feats that dont require intelligence at all, doesnt matter how smart you are for those if you arent perceptive, strong or dextrous enough. The intelligence based feats are the ones that do require forethought.

I'm not going to refute your points, fighting smart doesnt necessarily translate into being able to fight 'well'. There's far too many factors.

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2019, 03:31:45 PM »
For what it's worth, bear in mind that polearm weapons (Halberds) don't require Improved Parry to get their full Parry bonus, so if you're playing a low INT character, a Halberd may be a good option for you over a Great Axe.
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nostalgicsamurai

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2019, 03:35:26 PM »
I would add this: apart from improved knockdown with 6 levels of monk, none of these combat feats can be acquired in any way without meeting the int requirement , contrarily to what was said above (the ranger example with improved two weapon fighting doesn't count since ITWF doesn't have an int requirement in the first place)

Truth is, if above average intelligence was required to learn advanced combat techniques (and use them effectively) then almost all the top fighters in every combat sport in the world would be smart. No offense but I'd hardly believe it to be the case.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 03:38:31 PM by nostalgicsamurai »

APorg

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2019, 03:38:11 PM »
There are weapons that provide Improved Knockdown (some longsword/khopeshes).

I think it's not unreasonable to suggest the inclusion of some magic items that can provide such feats; e.g. a Great Axe with Improved Parry.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2019, 04:06:26 PM »
Truth is, if above average intelligence was required to learn advanced combat techniques (and use them effectively) then almost all the top fighters in every combat sport in the world would be smart. No offense but I'd hardly believe it to be the case.

As I said, I'm not going to argue against the "realism" premise, but that the change affects game balance. Int does not affect saving throws, AB, damage, or AC, so the only way it is is of use to classes other than wizards is skill points and gate-keeping feats. Moreover, because we don't enforce stat rolls except for DMs, PCs can largely avoid the very real-life penalty of having a low intelligence.

If you want to talk realism, humans are a dominant species because we're smart, not because we're quick or strong. Even in combat, although bigger, stronger, and faster is going to trump intelligence, a person who is both is going to be yet better. How do we simulate that without giving the high int PC access to feats the low int PC doesn't have?

Too bad we can't enforce it where only average and above Int PCs get to see attack rolls and results and know when they need a magic weapon to hit their foe ;)

My PCs tend to have low intelligence already because I think it's worth the trade as is. Without the Int requirement for Improved Parry, IMO virtually every fighter / barbarian / paladin on the server would forego a shield and swing a two-hander.

There are weapons that provide Improved Knockdown (some longsword/khopeshes).

I think it's not unreasonable to suggest the inclusion of some magic items that can provide such feats; e.g. a Great Axe with Improved Parry.

More feat-granting magic items would be great additons to the loot tables, including some of the custom feats we now have.

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Relapse

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2019, 04:54:37 PM »
For what it's worth, bear in mind that polearm weapons (Halberds) don't require Improved Parry to get their full Parry bonus, so if you're playing a low INT character, a Halberd may be a good option for you over a Great Axe.

Is this a mechanical oversight? Seems a strange exception...

nostalgicsamurai

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2019, 05:21:16 PM »
Even without int requirements on these feats, there would still be very tangible benefits to high intelligence. If you do a greatsword fighter and you want antagonize on him, that's already four combat skills you'll most likely want (discipline, parry, antagonize and tumble). Even as a human, a fighter, having only 2+int mod skill points per level, would still need 12 int to max all these skills. And that's just for improving combat prowess, not even learning anything useful outside of a fight (well antagonize does at least have some non combat applications but they're roleplay only). And from an RP point of view, not being able to learn languages (without investment in polyglot or speak languages) is a very real disadvantage.

Now, would there be less incentive for some builds to go with high int? Yes, certainly! That's what I hope this removal would achieve in the first place. And I must ask this: why is it okay for charisma to be a universal dump stat outside of a few classes but if intelligence is a bit less essential to some classes then that's bad? Wisdom, ditto (though I guess wis is slightly better off than charisma in this regard since it increases will saves).

As for the issue with two handed weapon being too advantageous without the int requirement on improved parry, I would suggest giving it the same requirement as shield parry then: 15+ dex. Deflecting blows with a large weapon doesn't require being particularly clever, but it does require speed and coordination. Qualities that skilled fighters tend to have coincidentally.

About feat granting items, I've got to say I dislike them. They reward people with server knowledge, who know what feats can be gotten by gear and thus don't need to be taken at level ups, and in a server like this one, where you have to FOIC everything about the gear, that can easily lead to people needing relevels or even remakes because they realize they didn't need to take such and such feats.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 06:35:53 PM by nostalgicsamurai »

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2019, 06:10:04 PM »
I think the INT requirement is a little high for a class that ultimately doesn't need INT for much, but it makes sense for there to be SOME INT requirement. Say you're using a greatsword, to properly disarm, you're not just smacking their sword really hard, you're hooking their blade between your blade and crossguard for example. With axes, you're hooking the head of the axe around the shield and yanking in such a way that throws the opponent off their footing and breaking their guard all while maintaining your stance and guard and providing as little openings as possible on your end. You have to find the opening, make one, and follow through properly otherwise you're getting a weapon in your gut. To effectively employ those strategies, it does requires a great deal of experience and know-how.
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nostalgicsamurai

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2019, 06:44:14 PM »
To effectively employ those strategies, it does requires a great deal of experience and know-how.

Experience and know how, you've said it yourself. Int doesn't represent these things. Experience in d&d is represented by... experience. A fighter's "know how" would be better represented by his bab, which reflects the combat prowess he's achieved through training as well as actual combat experience.

And I'm going to sound like a broken record here but finding an opening is more of a wisdom thing. It's about observing your opponent after all.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 06:56:49 PM by nostalgicsamurai »

Iridni Ren

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2019, 07:40:22 PM »
To effectively employ those strategies, it does requires a great deal of experience and know-how.

Experience and know how, you've said it yourself. Int doesn't represent these things.

Int (through skill points) represents the ability to acquire every skill in the game, however. So perhaps we're getting too hung up on the word "Intelligence." Just as Charisma isn't only physical beauty, Intelligence in NwN might be thought of as "know how" or "aptitude."

A person with higher Int can become more disciplined and resist knockdowns and disarmament, so why not be able to improve the ability to knock down an opponent and disarm the opponent as well?

Higher Int? You can improve your skill in parry more easily, so why can it not be a requirement for Improved Parry?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 07:44:41 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Khornite

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2019, 07:57:21 PM »
To effectively employ those strategies, it does requires a great deal of experience and know-how.

Experience and know how, you've said it yourself. Int doesn't represent these things. Experience in d&d is represented by... experience. A fighter's "know how" would be better represented by his bab, which reflects the combat prowess he's achieved through training as well as actual combat experience.

And I'm going to sound like a broken record here but finding an opening is more of a wisdom thing. It's about observing your opponent after all.

Not necessarily. A sword fight is similar to a game of chess in a lot of ways. There's good openers, bad openers, there's attacks, there's counters to those attacks, there's counters to those counters, there's counters to the counters-counter. It's not just about swinging the sword really hard, it's as much mental as it is physical. Intelligence is the stat that focuses on learning and how well you can apply a lot of what you've learned. Wisdom is more about intuition and common sense. Could wisdom apply to melee combat? Sure. But by that thinking, every feat would have 6 ability requirements.

That said, 13+ int is a little high for melee feat requirements. Should be knocked down to 12, I think. NWN and D&D as a whole were balanced with considering that the player would have access to items that raise stats, POTM has very items like that, so sometimes you hit little roadbumps like this. My fighter has a 14 int purely cause I wanted those skill points and feats. I don't really have problems in melee combat because of my 14 int not allowing me to have a 16 dex or con.
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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2019, 08:03:17 PM »
I'm not sure if it's already been stated (I just skimmed over the thread) but it should be noted that Improved Parry for a one-handed weapon character only confers a parry bonus which by end-game doesn't matter all that much, and can be replaced in effect by skill focus: parry for low-intelligence characters. For two-handed weapon characters, there are weapons which can permit you to gain your full parry bonus without the Improved Parry Feat -- The Halberd, for instance, which is a polearm with an axe at the end of it.

From an in-character perspective, Halberds are very easy to learn to use and are basically the standard longarm of most guards, soldiers, and law-enforcement in medieval to early modern societies, and was so prominent it even found a ceremonial place among British Napoleonic Regiments and their Sergeants well into the 1800's. Any other weapon, like say, a Greatsword -- Which is a catch-all term for a weapon that would have amounted to anything between a German Longsword (held with two hands, traditionally) and a Zweihänder --Would require considerable training and practice to understand the biomechanics of effectively parrying, deflecting, and countering oncoming attacks, to the effect there are surviving manuscripts where entire schools of wealthy aristocrats went to learn these techniques. Something that clearly requires a little intelligence.

A man who isn't educated or knowledgeable enough to understand the mechanical actions behind parrying with these more advanced weapons should probably not be wielding one in the first place, and would be more at home with the humble Halberd, or a shield.

But hey, there are at least options for the unintelligent, right?

Relapse

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2019, 08:10:22 PM »
Experience and know how, you've said it yourself. Int doesn't represent these things. Experience in d&d is represented by... experience. A fighter's "know how" would be better represented by his bab, which reflects the combat prowess he's achieved through training as well as actual combat experience.

And I'm going to sound like a broken record here but finding an opening is more of a wisdom thing. It's about observing your opponent after all.

Int is about the knowledge to learn the maneuvers and experience about the ability to apply - represented by the additional attack bonus as you level.

If i'm being honest I dont really understand this thread, PoTM already provides a distinct advantage by offering disarm free, additionally everyone is on the same playing field, all classes need to invest into this ability to take advantage of it. If you dont want a smart PC, dont take int and reap the benefits of investing in a high constitution or strength instead. I personally love the idea of a fighter using their smarts to take advantage of the situation.

To me this comes across as  an attempt to buff ability starved classes such as paladins who honestly dont need it.

A man who isn't educated or knowledgeable enough to understand the mechanical actions behind parrying with these more advanced weapons should probably not be wielding one in the first place, and would be more at home with the humble Halberd, or a shield.

I dont want to derail this thread but a halberd may be easier to use but I dont understand why it's an exception to the improved parry rule. They're not really made for that...
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 08:18:42 PM by Relapse »

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2019, 01:00:39 AM »
I could be wrong, but I don't think this one is about buffing paladins (I sure hope not, as correctly stated, they don't need it.  They are perhaps the only combat class that is outright better for taking 10 Int).   It reads like being for the more unfortunate racial difficulties suffered by half orcs/caliban, which lose two points of intelligence.

Frankly, I sympathise because half orcs got boned, stat wise, over every other race.  With that said, it has been heavily reworked on this server to offset this, in particular with the class best suited to half orcs - barbarian.  Instead of improved knockdown and improved disarm, barbarians have instead access to the amazing rage feats - including a unique one for half orcs which adds a will save during raging equivalent to the strength score.  Combined with mystic rage, a barbarian (again, if this is the particular this is aimed at) gets an amazing amount of tools unique to them to put to use, that anyone else (regardless of intelligence score) cannot use.

Just because a class cannot use a shiny toy does not mean they don't have access to more and arguably better ones.  Most things have a discipline score - especially after gear enchanting - high enough that standard 'or' improved versions of feats, you won't beat the discipline check anyway.  Just go big, go hard for the big damage and you'll come out all right, believe me.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 01:07:25 AM by Nemesis 24 »

nostalgicsamurai

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2019, 03:44:08 AM »
I'm just tired of warrior builds having to shoot for 13+ int in order to take good feats in general. Would it buff half-orcs/calibans as well as other int deficient races, such as wood elves? It definitely would and this would be a welcome consequence I think. Would it give an unnecessary buff to the already strong class of paladin? I must admit it would. Mostly though, I hope this would give some characters the necessary ability points to focus on other mental stats such as charisma for roleplay without gimping themselves. Though I guess it's a pipe dream, because given the answers I'm getting here, it seems to me like most people would just use the extra attribute points on physical stats to powergame harder.

It seems that nobody agrees with the suggestion, so this is a losing battle anyway.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 03:46:16 AM by nostalgicsamurai »

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2019, 08:42:32 AM »
Mostly though, I hope this would give some characters the necessary ability points to focus on other mental stats such as charisma for roleplay without gimping themselves.

Every PC I'm playing, Cha exceeds Int. And I don't feel any are gimped by it.

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Re: [Suggestion] remove int requirement from combat feats
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2019, 03:28:19 PM »
I dont want to derail this thread but a halberd may be easier to use but I dont understand why it's an exception to the improved parry rule. They're not really made for that...

Well, in some games, polearms tend to be presented as the "defensive" option for two handed weapons (e.g. in some Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay editions, Halberds have the Defensive Trait; in Morrowind, polearms go off Endurance, etc.).

There's always going to be some simplifications in a game like this, and two-handed polearms occupying a niche where they don't require Improved Parry gives them an unique niche. Sure, the half-orc barbarian with a halberd isn't quite as iconic as the great axe one, but eh, it's close enough...
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