Author Topic: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities  (Read 218 times)

Relapse

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Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« on: October 08, 2019, 06:53:54 AM »
I've noticed that many temporary hitpoint abilities (Bardsong, Divine Vigor) do not allow the refresh of the hitpoints until the ability ends. Though I understand this is to prevent spamming them as healing abilities it actually penalises people that would invest into these abilities through high charismas and feats such as using lingering song. I would like to see a throttle introduced that is not based on the ability ending but perhaps a standard duration to make it consistent and allow refreshing in the right situation (perhaps 3-5 rounds).

Iridni Ren

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Re: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2019, 07:39:43 AM »
This effect has been observed and debated multiple times. Per EO, the two are not meant to be healing abilities.

When viewed in that light, the extra duration for having a high Cha is a bonus, not a penalty.

FWIW, as someone who uses DV religiously on high Cha builds, I prefer the current mechanic.

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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2019, 10:14:48 AM »
I'm using DV and I'm indifferent, no preference one way or the other. Iridni and I are also playing combat healers who can just get that HP back another way though, so mileage may vary. I've been told by some bards lingering song isn't the thing you want if temp hp refresh is something you rely on.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2019, 10:33:40 AM »
Again, if you view it as a buff rather than a heal, it makes perfect sense that the buff lasts longer the higher your Cha. Compare Toughness, which refreshes only once per rest and is only 1 HP per level. With DV you have a feat that gives you twice the HP of Toughness, plus increased movement speed. Its duration is shorter, but with high enough Cha, you can keep it up virtually all the time.

If it lasted three rounds and you did not get hit, the hp would be lost, and you'd have to renew it. To me that's inferior to having them around until you get hit. If you are losing them through being hit every three rounds, that seems a movement back to the time when it was considered OP'd because of truly being able to spam it.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 10:35:16 AM by Iridni Ren »

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Iridni Ren

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Re: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2019, 10:37:53 AM »
By the way, if you have a really high Cha and don't like the fact that DV lasts so long as a result, use those turn undead attempts on Divine Shield instead. Increasing your AC will keep you from getting hit so often that you need to refresh Divine Vigor :)

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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2019, 04:56:50 PM »
Doesn't hurt or affect anyone to have the HP be renewable every minute for divine vigor like a 12 charisma cleric can. High charisma still can keep running as long as they'd like, and if they need to burn another use after an appropriate amount of time* for hitpoints then they can. Keeps the HP pool of burst power more accesible, but yeah if you have high charisma then divine shield to damage mitigate in conjunction (at least for PvE vs melee) is something to seriously consider.
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Re: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2019, 06:19:17 PM »
This effect has been observed and debated multiple times. Per EO, the two are not meant to be healing abilities.

When viewed in that light, the extra duration for having a high Cha is a bonus, not a penalty.

FWIW, as someone who uses DV religiously on high Cha builds, I prefer the current mechanic.

Im not proposing they should be a healing mechanic quite the opposite and i had a look and dont believe this solution has been proposed prior - for bards this also acts as an offensive mechanic as well.  The proposal is to standardize the refresh rate based on a static timer not a variable one. As someone who plays a bard with lingering song I find it annoying that I am ultimately less effective for investing an extra feat and should be able to buffer with temporary hp in a standard window.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 07:03:57 PM by Relapse »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2019, 07:47:32 PM »
Doesn't hurt or affect anyone to have the HP be renewable every minute for divine vigor like a 12 charisma cleric can.

Of course it does. Any change to a feat affects game balance (which is why Divine Vigor was nerfed in the first place).

The 12 Cha cleric is going to have fewer uses of DV than a cleric (or paladin) with a higher Cha. To quote EO's post the last time this was debated (and with all the same points being made):

With a Cha of 1 you can "heal" 20 damage per turn at level 20 4 (up to 6 with Extra Turning) times per day. Thatís a potential of 120 healed damage over 60 rounds, about 2 per round. Youíre better off investing in healing or regen. Itís no more meant to be a healing ability than Bard Song.

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immasturgeon

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Re: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2019, 07:49:24 PM »
This change would be a buff to the bard cleric and paladin. None of these classes need any strengthening. I just don't think this change is needed.

*disclaimer: Main character is a high level bard

FlyingLotus

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Re: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2019, 08:25:00 PM »
I think we can all agree that this feat was the most fun when it didn't have a cd at all  :lol:

that being said, at least in my own opinion it's fine for one feat to make you reconsider taking another. and it's fine for temp hp to be useful in terms of application without being something you feel is needed always. No one is ever sad that they have extra hp. Your other buffs, full song included, is not any less super strong for it.

Btw, bard song, by a pure bard, is a powerful buff, especially with the added feats. If I ever -did- play a bard I would never pick lingering because you can just take extra and that means you can then CURSE song more often, which results in dmg taken by enemies.  :cheer:

It does though come down to preference to an extent, and I don't think there's anything wrong in deciding that one feat isn't right for what you want and another is, just because one makes the other less effective.
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noah25

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Re: Temporary Hitpoint Abilities
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2019, 11:45:44 PM »
In any of these circumstances I feel temporary hp is one of the least beneficial aspects. I've never been in a party with my level 7 bard and had someone be upset the temporary hit points are gone. They notice pretty quickly that their bonus to dodge AC and AB disappeared though.