Brainstorming: Alternatives to RP XP Restriction

[APorg]

So there's a lot of talk about the RP XP Restrictions in Vallaki in the other thread, I thought I'd invite everyone to brainstorm alternative ideas to see if the Dev team like any of them.

In the spirit of brainstorming:
 1) Don't reply to someone's idea to criticise it; the purpose is not to debate ideas, but to generate a bunch that might stick for the Dev team.
 2) You are allowed to ask questions and for clarifications.
 3) You are allowed to change someone's idea and spin your own variation based on it

In this thread, there are no bad ideas. May the best idea inspire the Dev Team and make the server better!

Remember: the RP XP restriction is effectively something that limits higher levels from enjoying RP XP in the Vallaki areas, to ostensibly encourage higher levels to go back to Barovia. We're looking to find another mechanism to replace that.

Here's my idea: a OOC Weekly Calendar

Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and Sundays: would be OPEN days. High levels (15+) are allowed to visit Vallaki and all regions as usual (and gain full RP XP, obviously)

Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays: would be CLOSED days, where high levels would not be present.

An outline of how it would work:
  * At midnight IRL (timezone TBD) on the start of a CLOSED day, any high level who is still logged in, and west of the Choking Mists in the Tser Pass, would be teleported to the Tser Pool. Any high level trying to use the Vistani Elixir would find it doesn't work.
 * There should be an OOC countdown prior to this, to warn high levels who are west of the Choking Mists to either log off or be teleported.
 * Once the CLOSED day has passed, high levels would be able to log back on during an OPEN day and, if they weren't teleported, would find themselves back in Vallaki (or wherever) where they had logged off.

The biggest advantage of this idea is that it allows for scheduling:
 * A/MPCs (who are obviously exempt from this) would be able to log into Vallaki on a CLOSED day and know that they won't be ganked by high level Outskirts lurkers. It would effectively make Vallaki have a "mini-NCE" three days a week. I think that could be a very strong positive.
 * Equally, it doesn't kill off high level play in Vallaki: they can still come play Yoda to the padawans on OPEN days.

The downsides seem fairly obvious: it does limit continuous play between low levels and high levels in Vallaki over two days, and people who don't schedule or prefer to improvise might find this restrictive.

On the other hand:
 - Imagine being an A/MPC and having the roam of the land again (at least on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays)
 - Imagine being a high level in Vallaki and not feeling OOC guilty/harangued because you "shouldn't be there"

Think about it, Dev team... we might be able to square that circle after all.

* * *

Again, this is a brainstorming thread. If you don't like my idea, please don't waste your brain power saying so, instead post a better idea!

[RickDeckard]

Only real option is removing RP XP restrictions, your suggestion would be a nightmare for people in less than desirable timezones or IRL schedule.

[APorg]

Please don't criticise ideas but post your own. It's not about convincing you or me. It's about convincing the Dev team.

[RickDeckard]

I did post my idea, remove the restriction.

[APorg]

your suggestion would be a nightmare for people in less than desirable timezones or IRL schedule.

This is criticism. The idea is not to devolve this thread into the problems of each suggestion, otherwise we're going to have several rambling arguments about any idea that pops up.

[PrimetheGrime]

your suggestion would be a nightmare for people in less than desirable timezones or IRL schedule.

This is criticism. The idea is not to devolve this thread into the problems of each suggestion, otherwise we're going to have several rambling arguments about any idea that pops up.

Whilst it is criticism, it is constructive and very real for those of us with tight time schedules who also live on the other side of the world. I agree, remove rpxp restrictions. It shouldn't have been added in the first place, especially because it's -all- of Vallaki, Wachter, Kburg and the north that are included in that. All of those areas are at the same rp xp cap which serves no purpose but to force people towards the MC or dungeons to progress.

[APorg]

So there's a lot of talk about the RP XP Restrictions in Vallaki in the other thread, I thought I'd invite everyone to brainstorm alternative ideas to see if the Dev team like any of them.

In the spirit of brainstorming:
 1) Don't reply to someone's idea to criticise it; the purpose is not to debate ideas, but to generate a bunch that might stick for the Dev team.
 2) You are allowed to ask questions and for clarifications.
 3) You are allowed to change someone's idea and spin your own variation based on it

In this thread, there are no bad ideas. May the best idea inspire the Dev Team and make the server better!

Remember: the RP XP restriction is effectively something that limits higher levels from enjoying RP XP in the Vallaki areas, to ostensibly encourage higher levels to go back to Barovia. We're looking to find another mechanism to replace that.

Here's my idea: a OOC Weekly Calendar

Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and Sundays: would be OPEN days. High levels (15+) are allowed to visit Vallaki and all regions as usual (and gain full RP XP, obviously)

Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays: would be CLOSED days, where high levels would not be present.

An outline of how it would work:
  * At midnight IRL (timezone TBD) on the start of a CLOSED day, any high level who is still logged in, and west of the Choking Mists in the Tser Pass, would be teleported to the Tser Pool. Any high level trying to use the Vistani Elixir would find it doesn't work.
 * There should be an OOC countdown prior to this, to warn high levels who are west of the Choking Mists to either log off or be teleported.
 * Once the CLOSED day has passed, high levels would be able to log back on during an OPEN day and, if they weren't teleported, would find themselves back in Vallaki (or wherever) where they had logged off.

The biggest advantage of this idea is that it allows for scheduling:
 * A/MPCs (who are obviously exempt from this) would be able to log into Vallaki on a CLOSED day and know that they won't be ganked by high level Outskirts lurkers. It would effectively make Vallaki have a "mini-NCE" three days a week. I think that could be a very strong positive.
 * Equally, it doesn't kill off high level play in Vallaki: they can still come play Yoda to the padawans on OPEN days.

The downsides seem fairly obvious: it does limit continuous play between low levels and high levels in Vallaki over two days, and people who don't schedule or prefer to improvise might find this restrictive.

On the other hand:
 - Imagine being an A/MPC and having the roam of the land again (at least on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays)
 - Imagine being a high level in Vallaki and not feeling OOC guilty/harangued because you "shouldn't be there"

Think about it, Dev team... we might be able to square that circle after all.

* * *

Again, this is a brainstorming thread. If you don't like my idea, please don't waste your brain power saying so, instead post a better idea!

Spin on this idea:
 - make 3 continues days CLOSED (e.g. Friday to Sunday) and the other 4 OPEN

[APorg]

Whilst it is criticism, it is constructive and very real for those of us with tight time schedules who also live on the other side of the world. I agree, remove rpxp restrictions. It shouldn't have been added in the first place, especially because it's -all- of Vallaki, Wachter, Kburg and the north that are included in that. All of those areas are at the same rp xp cap which serves no purpose but to force people towards the MC or dungeons to progress.

Guys, the purpose of this thread is to come up with original ideas. You are thread-crapping.

There's been a six page thread about removing the RP XP Restriction that's made no progress in the past 18 months. Sometimes, the best way to get the Dev team to change something is to come up with a new, better idea that they can get on board with. If you can't play ball with the intent of this thread, please don't post. You're not helping.

[Dante101]

your suggestion would be a nightmare for people in less than desirable timezones or IRL schedule.

This is criticism. The idea is not to devolve this thread into the problems of each suggestion, otherwise we're going to have several rambling arguments about any idea that pops up.

Respectful criticism shouldn't be knocked down, even if you stated in your thread that it doesn't belong here. Because it does.

"Convincing the dev team" should include a back and forth of why an idea is good or bad, so they can make an informed decision that includes the player base's feedback.

[SardineTheAncestor]

A lot of people have been posting about the effect of this system long-term on factions/groups based in Vallaki.

Morninglord sanctuaries, the Ezrite church/rectory, the garda barracks/citadel...

Letting people gain RP XP inside of faction bases is one thing. If no-RP ganks against MPCs is the problem, let's consider that anyone RPing inside a locked faction base probably isn't going to have a lower level character sprint in and beg for help because their friend just got kidnapped by a vampire.

But what about other places?

The Bell, the Lady's, the hospice, the Wound, Tigan's, the Fishing Lodge, Krofburg, Zeklos, Krezk...

There are so many cool RP destinations in western Barovia (west of the RPXP gate that is). Even the streets of municipal Vallaki can be host to great RP. There's so much effort to player initiative here in these areas. The Merriment in particular opens every day, sometimes several times, just for the fun of RP. They're definitely not coming down the mountain through several notoriously low-framerate transitions to go after MPCs every night cycle.

Someone suggested before that the restriction should apply only the outskirts and maybe a couple areas nearby like the southern forest or the areas around Lake Zarovich, the area outside the orphanage, etc. but if you are inside and not in the dungeon underneath it, you are probably RPing, even if a DM is going to give you XP anyway.

High levels might roam around Vallaki less and stick to RP hubs inside of it more if this change is what went through. We might see less outskirts camping, and more merchants selling inside the city or peddling wares inside a tavern. And while a high level character might (in my case, and many others' case) say, "I won't go with you to the werewolf den / I'm not going to kill rats in the sewers with you" they might be able to inspire that low level character to sit and RP with them just as they would with a high level in the same situation.

So in short, a very mild nudge toward the indoor areas. Let the lower levels have the outskirts, as the higher levels pass through, put up flyers, and head to actual hub areas like taverns and churches and such. I'm only an outskirts sitter myself as long as it takes to check out merchant stuff, then I move on. I don't see the Ratters sitting in the Outskirts all day long, so if the problem is high levels easily slaying werewolf NPCs, the frequency of rescues from the crypts/sewers, and no-RP ganks on MPCs, moving high levels a little further away could solve that.

[APorg]

Respectful criticism shouldn't be knocked down, even if you stated in your thread that it doesn't belong here. Because it does.

"Convincing the dev team" should include a back and forth of why an idea is good or bad, so they can make an informed decision that includes the player base's feedback.

If you want to criticise my idea, please start a new thread.

The idea that the Dev team are going to lift a suggestion from this thread and implement it wholesale without thorough discussion and analysis first, that's never going to happen. Relax.

Again: this idea is purely for original ideas. Let's take the debate for each idea to another thread if it's deemed mature enough.

[Dante101]

Respectful criticism shouldn't be knocked down, even if you stated in your thread that it doesn't belong here. Because it does.

"Convincing the dev team" should include a back and forth of why an idea is good or bad, so they can make an informed decision that includes the player base's feedback.

If you want to criticise my idea, please start a new thread.

The idea that the Dev team are going to lift a suggestion from this thread and implement it wholesale without thorough discussion and analysis first, that's never going to happen. Relax.

Again: this idea is purely for original ideas. Do you not understand what brainstorming means?

In all my years here, there have been very few (if any) instances where the playerbase as a whole is pinged for feedback before implementing a change or new idea. This is the literal forum where people can make themselves be heard.

And yes, I do understand what "brainstorming" means. But theres more to the improvement process than "brainstorming." Unless you provide the forum for people to actually assess the brainstormed ideas, then the criticism piece is missing from the process.

And no, I'm not going to start a new thread to criticize your idea, because on these forums it would become even more chaotic than finding information is today.

[APorg]

The point is not to turn this thread into a dissection of any single idea, but to encourage and inspire people to do what SardineAncestor did and suggest new ideas they feel might be workable.

But I guess this is already a pointless exercise that ironically demonstrates precisely why the Devs don't "ping" players as much as they might.

I'm going to bed. If anyone has any original ideas, do please post them.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

My critique of this thread is firstly that any idea that cannot handle criticism in any form is ultimately an idea that does not hold water. If a ship sinks from the first stone thrown, I wouldn't board it. Far better is the idea tempered and tested than shattered like glass. Secondly, the assertion that the existing thread with 18 months of discussion that highlights an existing issue, which the community has at least a significant proportion of people asking for a change, is going nowhere and that a wholly new idea must be proposed in order for the development team to consider it implies a number of possibilities. None of which are positive, constructive or helpful. If the development team is unwilling to give any time to an issue that has been repeatedly brought up for a year and a half, I fail to see why they would give any time of day to a new idea altogether, if this rationale is played out.

I won't make any assumptions on either the motivations of the development team, any ongoing discussions they may or may not be having or their interests in seeing this issue resolved.

My only suggestion is to entirely remove the RP XP cap and instead institute a new system where a percentage of every level must be accrued through RP XP in order to level. Five or ten percent seems an adequate starting point, for a roleplay server. Bonus suggestion; alter the RP XP calculation to include weighting for or against level differences, so that this mandatory RP XP requirement for levelling is also adversely affected by RPing with people far outside your level range.

[PrimetheGrime]

With respect, Aprog, you're not being very accepting of the constructive criticism being given. You don't have to like or agree with it, but people are sharing their opinions on the matter. Saying to look at your suggestion and not 'criticise' it to me at least, sounds like you only want praise rather than peoples opinions. I'm certain you worked hard on the proposal, but it's just not going to work for those of us with busy schedules outside of the times you listed. It's not meant to be a dig on you or your creativity, just the truth.

But, to give my own idea, I'd like to see only the outskirts exterior be capped if anything must be capped at all. all interiors or exteriors apart from the outskirts should gain full rp xp. It might well get some traffic in Krofburg which is dying for some population aside from the dedicated players that are always there slaving away. It could also entertain the idea of Berez roleplay as an option for higher levels. It's remote, out of the way and the village has it's own charm to it. Factions suffer the most from the rp xp cap as it makes less IC sense for them to have to pack up their things and go dungeon for instance to gain levels or equipment. They perform an important service in keeping the scenery of Vallaki and the areas surrounding it as roleplay intensive as possible within the boundaries of their faction and thus should not be hampered by a lack of rp xp.

[APorg]

My critique of this thread is firstly that any idea that cannot handle criticism in any form is ultimately an idea that does not hold water. If a ship sinks from the first stone thrown, I wouldn't board it. Far better is the idea tempered and tested than shattered like glass.

The idea is not to miss the forest for the trees.

Since people seem intent on pursuing the details, let me demonstrate:

Alright, the original idea of "Timesharing"  with 3 days CLOSED and 4 DAYS OPEN says it might inconvience some people. Why, how, exactly? Could we not concievably pick a 24 hour period where everyone might satisfy, or at least be tolerated, by everyone?

Okay, if 24 hours doesn't work, what about 48 hours? What about 12? What about 96? What about 6 hours...

Do you see what I mean? Any given idea could have a dozen different permutations. Rather than getting bogged down on details we don't like, let's find ideas and details we do like. We can sort through the shaff later.

Secondly, the assertion that the existing thread with 18 months of discussion that highlights an existing issue, which the community has at least a significant proportion of people asking for a change, is going nowhere and that a wholly new idea must be proposed in order for the development team to consider it implies a number of possibilities. None of which are positive, constructive or helpful.

The issue is that the Dev team have their own internal debates and data that we aren't privy to. If players hate the RP XP Restriction, but Dev data tells them that it works, and it suits their vision of PotM, then asking them to turn back the clock is not going to work unless the data has changed  or they conclude the RP XP Restriction has stopped working -- or their priorities or vision changes. PotM has never been a democracy.

If the development team is unwilling to give any time to an issue that has been repeatedly brought up for a year and a half, I fail to see why they would give any time of day to a new idea altogether, if this rationale is played out.

Because I've seen it done a number of times before. Where players have made an impact on changing Dev team implementations, it's usually been done by by the players understanding the intent of the Dev team, and creatively finding a compromise that still meets the Dev's intentions while not being as objectionable to players.

It's my personal experience that creativity can achieve compromise.

My only suggestion is to entirely remove the RP XP cap and instead institute a new system where a percentage of every level must be accrued through RP XP in order to level. Five or ten percent seems an adequate starting point, for a roleplay server. Bonus suggestion; alter the RP XP calculation to include weighting for or against level differences, so that this mandatory RP XP requirement for levelling is also adversely affected by RPing with people far outside your level range.

Thank you, that's an interesting idea.

[Khornite]

With respect, Aprog, you're not being very accepting of the constructive criticism being given. You don't have to like or agree with it, but people are sharing their opinions on the matter. Saying to look at your suggestion and not 'criticise' it to me at least, sounds like you only want praise rather than peoples opinions. I'm certain you worked hard on the proposal, but it's just not going to work for those of us with busy schedules outside of the times you listed. It's not meant to be a dig on you or your creativity, just the truth.

But, to give my own idea, I'd like to see only the outskirts exterior be capped if anything must be capped at all. all interiors or exteriors apart from the outskirts should gain full rp xp. It might well get some traffic in Krofburg which is dying for some population aside from the dedicated players that are always there slaving away. It could also entertain the idea of Berez roleplay as an option for higher levels. It's remote, out of the way and the village has it's own charm to it. Factions suffer the most from the rp xp cap as it makes less IC sense for them to have to pack up their things and go dungeon for instance to gain levels or equipment. They perform an important service in keeping the scenery of Vallaki and the areas surrounding it as roleplay intensive as possible within the boundaries of their faction and thus should not be hampered by a lack of rp xp.

Seconded here. There's no reason for the RP EXP cap to extend outside of Vallaki itself. Maybe an alternative could be to just tighten it down to the outskirts and surrounding areas if the concern is to not have high levels in the outskirts? That way crafters can use the mines, gather herbs and such without feeling like their being punished for being an icky high level near Vallaki. One of the other things that might help, Vallaki is one of the more fleshed out areas in the server. I was just saying the other day that outside of seeing no herbs growing, you don't get the same sense of the seasons that you would in Vallaki. If other domains and areas were as fleshed out, people wouldn't feel the needs to go back to Vallaki. If there was somewhere else besides Dverg to gather up tons of iron, I'd not be in the vallaki area as often, personally. The area exclusive resources like Viccar's Caps and to a lesser extend, Cinnabar doesn't help either. If I want to do a bunch of gilding practice and don't want to pay thousands on mercury I have to go to either the coal mines under Dverg or to the cinnabar in Perfidus.

[Iridni Ren]

The idea is to encourage good RP and discourage bad RP, and consequently I don't think this is a problem Devs (any Devs, not just ours) are naturally adept at solving. It does not lend itself to efficiency, simplicity, and binary thinking--which are normally desirable qualities in developers, but RP does not come in uniform nails for which the same hammer always works.

In the case of monsters, challenge ratings, numbers of foes, etc. help determine the XP value of combat, although even there risk is not always proportional to reward. We don't have a similar nuanced way of evaluating RP. Consequently, my proposal would offload much of the burden from Devs and allow players some agency, just as DMs can award situational character behavior.

First, all automatic RP XP gains would go away for any PC above 5th level. We could eliminate them entirely, but IMO they serve a useful purpose for new PCs and especially new players. At a low level, the tendency is to want to level as quickly as possible, and we need some incentive for new PCs to have a story motivation, rather than everyone just doing the Crypts until they can't get XP from them any more.

Second, all Vistani merchants would sell an item that I'm going to call Vistani Juju. The cost of this item would be based on character level (e.g. ninth level PC pays nine times as much gold for it, similar to the cost of raising). A PC can have only one juju in her inventory at any time, and each can be used only once.

A juju is usable only on a PC of equal or higher level than the PC using it. A fifth level can use it on another fifth level or a sixth level, but not on a fourth level.

When used, the juju can be attuned to good or bad. If good, it awards some arbitrary amount of RP XP. If bad, it removes some arbitrary amount of XP. It would be up to the Devs to decide how much per level jujus cost and how much XP they award or remove. Perhaps the amount would be equal to the equivalent XP expected to be gained from an hour of intense RP under the current system.

I think a message should appear telling the player of this reward/penalty because we want to encourage good behavior and penalize bad as a learning tool, not as a secret punishment, but that's another detail for Devs to mull over.

Good juju functions anywhere. Bad juju functions only in the NCE area.

This is a rough proposal that I'm sure I haven't thought of all the ways it might be exploited. But I think it would help prevent high levels from flexing on low levels. It would encourage high levels not to behave poorly in Barovia, where they might actually suffer XP loss. But it would not limit them from going to Barovia and engaging in positive RP. It has enormous granularity and encourages players to interact with one another...excellently.

It also gives players some agency to penalize one another without PvP for poor behavior, even when there is level disparity so that the aggrieved party has no chance of winning a PvP encounter.

It can be adjusted and balanced easily by tweaking the cost of the juju and the XP awarded.

It also makes gold more valuable as a positive side effect.

ETA: It goes without saying you can't use juju on one of your own PCs.

[Cassius]

Just going to quote this idea I posted awhile ago.

My suggestion is to revise the roleplay experience restrictions currently in place on faction areas. This would encourage faction growth and reward individuals who remain within a faction longer and dedicate their time toward strengthening the plot-driven elements of Vallaki.

The restrictions as they are encourage server migration but that is not an option that is applicable to all concepts. It feels punishing that the Ste. Mere des Larmes receives full consideration for experience, while the Refuge of the Fifth Light does not. We should encourage any location that generates positive, setting-centric roleplay for the server rather than reward primarily based on migration and adventure.

Some example of faction areas that would benefit...
Wayfarer Kinship Lodge
Red Vardo Storefront
The Drain
Refuge of the Fifth Light
Redoubtable Chapel
Vallaki Slums Morninglord Sanctuary
Bellegarde Consortium
House of Krofburg
Vallaki Citadel

I may be missing some less known factions on this list, but they would be included as well. I have listed the more public areas where available because the goal is to encourage people to participate in open roleplay rather than exclusive that would put us behind plot doors.

[PlatointheCave]

I like Cassius' idea. Making it places where roleplay that is naturally going to pertain to all levels is very sensible.

[Monktrus]

I'm definitley for removing the penalty from the drain, as caliban PCs already get a large minus to RP xp from the start due to risking death going on the surface during the day and are barred from a lot of places normal PCs go for interaction.

[FinalHeaven]

Just going to quote this idea I posted awhile ago.

My suggestion is to revise the roleplay experience restrictions currently in place on faction areas. This would encourage faction growth and reward individuals who remain within a faction longer and dedicate their time toward strengthening the plot-driven elements of Vallaki.

The restrictions as they are encourage server migration but that is not an option that is applicable to all concepts. It feels punishing that the Ste. Mere des Larmes receives full consideration for experience, while the Refuge of the Fifth Light does not. We should encourage any location that generates positive, setting-centric roleplay for the server rather than reward primarily based on migration and adventure.

Some example of faction areas that would benefit...
Wayfarer Kinship Lodge
Red Vardo Storefront
The Drain
Refuge of the Fifth Light
Redoubtable Chapel
Vallaki Slums Morninglord Sanctuary
Bellegarde Consortium
House of Krofburg
Vallaki Citadel

I may be missing some less known factions on this list, but they would be included as well. I have listed the more public areas where available because the goal is to encourage people to participate in open roleplay rather than exclusive that would put us behind plot doors.

Yep. 

[FellowMan]

Spoiler: show

Just going to quote this idea I posted awhile ago.

My suggestion is to revise the roleplay experience restrictions currently in place on faction areas. This would encourage faction growth and reward individuals who remain within a faction longer and dedicate their time toward strengthening the plot-driven elements of Vallaki.

The restrictions as they are encourage server migration but that is not an option that is applicable to all concepts. It feels punishing that the Ste. Mere des Larmes receives full consideration for experience, while the Refuge of the Fifth Light does not. We should encourage any location that generates positive, setting-centric roleplay for the server rather than reward primarily based on migration and adventure.

Some example of faction areas that would benefit...
Wayfarer Kinship Lodge
Red Vardo Storefront
The Drain
Refuge of the Fifth Light
Redoubtable Chapel
Vallaki Slums Morninglord Sanctuary
Bellegarde Consortium
House of Krofburg
Vallaki Citadel

I may be missing some less known factions on this list, but they would be included as well. I have listed the more public areas where available because the goal is to encourage people to participate in open roleplay rather than exclusive that would put us behind plot doors.

Sounds perfect

[zDark Shadowz]

Posted this in the other thread but:

Make going beyond the RP XP level cap something you can apply for like a prestige class, A/MPC application. Provide your case & evidence to the CC and if you're deserving you get it. Maybe even have it so you can ONLY get RP XP in these capped areas after approval.

Reason: As a blanket thing removing the XP cap affects the entire playerbase. Individual characters that proven to be contributing specifically to that area is another thing entirely.

[Troukk]

RP EXP restrictions are just a symptom of the real issue:

Some PCs are just too powerful to hang around in certain parts of the module and its detrimental to some of the core elements of Ravenloft (fear of the night, etc...)

Ravenloft was designed for low level characters. AFAIK there is only ONE NPC in the entire lore that is actually lvl 20 (Azalin Rex), while we have countless lvl 20 PCs hanging around.

I don't see a real solution to that problem that doesn't involve doing radical things like lowering the max level in the server. (which I'm not sure I'd even recommend, it'd be a huge change with unpredictable side-effects).