Author Topic: Two-Handed Weapons  (Read 711 times)

Khornite

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Two-Handed Weapons
« on: August 25, 2019, 09:50:07 AM »
Lately I have been wondering about the effectiveness of two-handed weapons on POTM. It seems they are really the odd one out in terms of getting any real bonus or additional options. As it stands, the damage bonus to weapons like greatswords and greataxes is largely minimal over a bastard sword or dwarven war axe. While the ±1/2 strength modifier might seem nice on paper, on low magic servers such as this, it usually only amounts to an extra 4 damage at the most.

Looking at real world fencing techniques, weapons like greatswords, spears, and even polearms are very accurate and surprisingly quick weapons, not to mention the versatility of being able to attack with both ends of the weapon or even the shaft of a spear or polearm. What would set these weapons apart might be a series of feats that improve the attack bonus of two-handed weapon users or perhaps increase the damage to make them a more attractive offer versus the nearest one-handed equivalent. Two-Handed weapon users come with the added penalty of not being able to use shields for greater AC and therefore must take the improved parry feat to remove the halved AC negative when really these weapons are not as clumsy or slow as that negative would suggest. Not having high dex scores and focusing more on strength, two-handers can't quite compare to the AC or dex based fighters who make use of the two-weapon defense feats, or the one-handed\no-shield AC feats.

Perhaps something like this, maybe:
[Vadi's School]
Requirement: Attack Bonus +6, Str 14+
Bonus:+1 to attack when wielding a two-handed weapon.

[Fiori's School]
Requirement: Vadi's School, Attack Bonus +10, Str 16+
Bonus: +2 to attack when wielding a two-handed weapon

[Di Grassi's School]
Requirement: Vadi and Fiori's School, Attack Bonus +14, Str 18
Bonus: +1d6 damage when wielding a two-handed weapon
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Dante101

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Re: Two-Handed Weapons
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2019, 09:58:25 AM »
There are other mechanical advantages to two handed weapons - such as the higher base dice and higher dice damage bonus generally found on them compared to the one handed varieties.

I'm strongly of the opinion that two handed weapons are already overwhelmingly powerful with all the options to increase AC with Parry.

Khornite

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Re: Two-Handed Weapons
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2019, 10:10:17 AM »
There are other mechanical advantages to two handed weapons - such as the higher base dice and higher dice damage bonus generally found on them compared to the one handed varieties.

I'm strongly of the opinion that two handed weapons are already overwhelmingly powerful with all the options to increase AC with Parry.


Let's look at a greatsword versus a bastard sword. Steel enchanted with 20 strength. The damage difference would be 8 points only if both roll max, 2 points if both roll minimum. That damage difference is nigh inconsequential. The greatsword user had to take a parry feat and has less options than a one-handed. The bastard sword user just has to take weapon proficiency and that's really the only negative.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 10:12:24 AM by Khornite »
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Dante101

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Re: Two-Handed Weapons
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2019, 10:56:36 AM »
There are other mechanical advantages to two handed weapons - such as the higher base dice and higher dice damage bonus generally found on them compared to the one handed varieties.

I'm strongly of the opinion that two handed weapons are already overwhelmingly powerful with all the options to increase AC with Parry.


Let's look at a greatsword versus a bastard sword. Steel enchanted with 20 strength. The damage difference would be 8 points only if both roll max, 2 points if both roll minimum. That damage difference is nigh inconsequential. The greatsword user had to take a parry feat and has less options than a one-handed. The bastard sword user just has to take weapon proficiency and that's really the only negative.

Yeah, see, you're overlooking other advantages. Such as disarm. And at max parry, the two handed weapon users are not terribly far off compared to those who use shields.

A 2 to 8 damage point difference per hit is nothing to scoff at.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Two-Handed Weapons
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2019, 11:16:21 AM »
Correctly built, a two handed weapon attacker can do about 200+ damage on a single crit.  Two handers, -especially- two handed enchanted weapons, are extremely frightening.

foxtale

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Re: Two-Handed Weapons
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2019, 11:40:11 AM »
Let's look at a greatsword versus a bastard sword. Steel enchanted with 20 strength. The damage difference would be 8 points only if both roll max, 2 points if both roll minimum. That damage difference is nigh inconsequential. The greatsword user had to take a parry feat and has less options than a one-handed. The bastard sword user just has to take weapon proficiency and that's really the only negative.

Do keep in mind that the Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe have their comparably high base dice because they require exotic weapons proficiency.
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immasturgeon

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Re: Two-Handed Weapons
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2019, 11:44:00 AM »
You're forgetting about the half again addition of str. . . .

Comparing the bastard sword vs two hander with an 18 str. Every attack on average will do 2 points more weapon dmg and 2 points more str dmg. For 4 points dmg per hit on average, 2 more at min and 6 at max.

Now the two handers with barb or paladin are going to be stacking str to insane scores which intensifies the difference even further. To 6-7 more dmg per hit on average.

For one or two points of AC, they are easily capable of doing 18-20+ points of damage more per round. For the cost of these few feats their AB would soar further over a like build sword and board. . . giving an extra hit every 2-3 rounds or so (lets say another 35+ dmg) And an additional 1d6 every hit. . . So without running actual numbers or doing some proper statistics my rather conservative estimate is

18 + 35/3 + 3.5*3 = 40 points of damage more per round. . . which seems broken.

Khornite

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Re: Two-Handed Weapons
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2019, 05:25:10 PM »
You're forgetting about the half again addition of str. . . .

Comparing the bastard sword vs two hander with an 18 str. Every attack on average will do 2 points more weapon dmg and 2 points more str dmg. For 4 points dmg per hit on average, 2 more at min and 6 at max.

Now the two handers with barb or paladin are going to be stacking str to insane scores which intensifies the difference even further. To 6-7 more dmg per hit on average.

For one or two points of AC, they are easily capable of doing 18-20+ points of damage more per round. For the cost of these few feats their AB would soar further over a like build sword and board. . . giving an extra hit every 2-3 rounds or so (lets say another 35+ dmg) And an additional 1d6 every hit. . . So without running actual numbers or doing some proper statistics my rather conservative estimate is

18 + 35/3 + 3.5*3 = 40 points of damage more per round. . . which seems broken.

Yes, I said this in my second post. With 20 str you can expect 2-8 damage difference per attack, but as we know, those last two attacks come at a huge negative and do not connect often. On average, you can expect 2 of 4 attacks to hit, 3 of five with haste. When most things you're fighting have HP in the hundreds, does 2-8 damage (assuming 20 strength and enchanted weapon) per turn do much? Not really. It's hardly over powered as some suggest.
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Edward

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Two-Handed Weapons
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 12:55:51 PM »
It's not overpowered, simply, it's far more endearing for glass cannon builds. Without a shield you're almost certain to get lower AC but, two handed weapons can be used to disarm people with smaller weapons far quicker. Aswell as the added on 1.5x STR damage bonus.
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aprogressivist

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Re: Two-Handed Weapons
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2019, 03:26:41 PM »
A full plate two-hander with Improved Parry and sufficient Parry bonus will have +4 shield AC over vanilla; and the Positive damage on late game enchanted weapons is huge on two-handers. It's really not a weak build once it gets rolling.
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Re: Two-Handed Weapons
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2019, 05:11:39 PM »
The relative advantages and disadvantages of two-handed and one-handed weapons are already accounted for in the balance between them in our module. While we may adjust this, adding feats is unlikely to be how we do so.
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