Vendor & Trash Barrel Placement

[Philos]

To settle the discussion about corpses and trash barrels, I encourage everyone to take a glance here.

https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=433.msg629155#msg629155

Perviously, while certainly against the rules it was mechanically possible to place a corpses in a trash can and, yes, it was possible to have a players remains removed from play this way along with other containers.

Further, a reminder to all to read up on your PvP rules and to try to keep this thread in topic.

[FinalHeaven]

So just to be clear if Player A puts their loot in the trash can to quickly sell to a merchant and Player B takes it out and walks away, Player A is not permitted to engage in PvP?

Just want to be sure my new get rich quick scheme is ready to go.

[Iridni Ren]

There certainly can still be IG repercussions for someone taking items from a trashcan btw, our position does not nullify roleplay, but taking an item from there is simply not a PvP action.

Player A is always permitted to engage in PvP. Player B has not, however, opted in just by taking the items from the trash.

[Ercvadasz]

So just to be clear if Player A puts their loot in the trash can to quickly sell to a merchant and Player B takes it out and walks away, Player A is not permitted to engage in PvP?

Just want to be sure my new get rich quick scheme is ready to go.

Player A is permitted to engage in PVP, so to set them up as hostile. Cuz they will likely consider this a theft.

What is not required however is for Player B to set up player A first as hostile, before stealing from this container, because that container in the shop is the merchants. So basicly he can walk up steal the loot, and if player A sets him up as hostile try to run with the loot, talk his way out and so on.
(If they can even notice who player B was.)

The difference is that since they do not have the items on them setting up PVP is not required as the sleigh of hand/pickpocket skill is not required to be used on the characters. But instead just walk there and take out the stuff from a third party inventory storage(aka the barrel).

[-Wing]

How about adding a "trading table" container so that the behaviour that players indulge in is no longer gimmicky and becomes legitimate IC?

This.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

How about adding an extra component to the OCR system where if an npc sees you taking things from a trash barrel it raises your OCR temporarily, similar to if you cast a spell nearby a Barovian it raises your OCR rating. People don't look kindly on beggars or trash pickers after all.

[zDark Shadowz]

No worries.

When us carpenters approach Petre or Djordi we will just make an identical barrel next to the trash barrel. If this new barrel isn't considered PvP either then neither are merchant boxes, then its time to put points up in pickpocket so that alert messages dont show when we steal other players stuff.

Thanks for the rule clarifications regarding trash barrels that its not considered pvp (by default).

Though I'm still going to thwack on people I consider taking things belonging to me simply because I set then down in one manner or another, and re-educate would-be thieves harshly and IC.

[FinalHeaven]

Since it's against the rules to PvP in front of NPCs without a DM it seems like the best strategy is to take things out of the trash barrel and proceed to RP browsing the merchant then log out when you're done.  Or immediately upon exiting the merchant area.

[EO]

Using carpentry to build structures inside someone’s store seems very OOC and ignoring NPCs so I would advise against that as well.

[haifisch021]

How about adding an extra component to the OCR system where if an npc sees you taking things from a trash barrel it raises your OCR temporarily, similar to if you cast a spell nearby a Barovian it raises your OCR rating. People don't look kindly on beggars or trash pickers after all.

That seems like a whole lot of work for something that is essentially a non-issue, and like something that would require a lot of maintainence to keep from being exploited. I don't see the issue with using a trash barrel to consolidate loot and it really isn't that immersion breaking, at least to me. And if you're concerned about somebody stealing from the trash when you put your stuff in there, all you really need to do is tell them to put the item back. If they don't, PvP them if you just have to. They would be sufficiently "opted in" (even though there is no "opt in" system on the server) so you could justify your fighting if you had to. This is something that would be a heck of a lot easier to leave as is and simply mange the few incidents on a case-by-case basis. The Devs have enough to do as it is without having to worry about the ramifications of people putting loot in a trash can.

[Aduial]

I believe that people here are testing a bit too much the patience od the Devs and the DM team, just rethink of what you have written there is surely something very wrong about it.

[SardineTheAncestor]

How about adding a "trading table" container so that the behaviour that players indulge in is no longer gimmicky and becomes legitimate IC?

That seems like a whole lot of work for something that is essentially a non-issue, ... I don't see the issue with using a trash barrel to consolidate loot and it really isn't that immersion breaking, at least to me. And if you're concerned about somebody stealing from the trash when you put your stuff in there, all you really need to do is tell them to put the item back. If they don't, PvP them if you just have to. They would be sufficiently "opted in" (even though there is no "opt in" system on the server) so you could justify your fighting if you had to. This is something that would be a heck of a lot easier to leave as is and simply mange the few incidents on a case-by-case basis. The Devs have enough to do as it is without having to worry about the ramifications of people putting loot in a trash can.

I believe that people here are testing a bit too much the patience od the Devs and the DM team, just rethink of what you have written there is surely something very wrong about it.

My thoughts summed up by the above three posts.

This whole thing is unnecessary. Players were using a non-invasive workaround to get dungeon loot sold quickly and here we are talking about random people stealthing up, grabbing bits of loot, and walking away like nothing happened just because the victims of their thievery set their stuff down in the most convenient way possible. Outside of the trading table container, which makes a lot more sense, there is no solution, precisely because there is no problem.

I can't believe we are having this discussion, guys! This is basic stuff for behaving in public. Your plate of food doesn't become fair game to steal the moment your waiter or waitress sets it down in front of you. Your groceries are not in "ownership limbo" while they are rolling down the belt waiting to be scanned by the cashier. And if you're inside a car dealership, signing a lease, nobody is entitled to jump in the one you want and hotwire it then drive off because you weren't in it.

The fact is, if you take something out of a trash barrel, or off the ground, that someone wasn't done with, you have stolen from them. Just like real life, if they drop something on accident, or have to set it down to manage their load, and they see you running off with it, your character has absolutely no defense. You took an IC action and there are IC consequences for that which your character will face to if they're caught.

The scenario is a very clear cut, specific thing, and we don't need special rules for it. Please put some faith in your fellow roleplayers and be considerate of people around you.

[FinalHeaven]

The fact is, if you take something out of a trash barrel, or off the ground, that someone wasn't done with, you have stolen from them.

Stolen from them free of consequences - which is the point of contention. 

The Dev response in this thread implies that taking the loot from a trash can is not opting in to PvP.  Given that you can't engage someone in PvP unless they've opted in, this presents a pretty ridiculous scenario where someone can walk up to a trash can that is being used for the purpose of making loot transferring easier, not hostile anyone, and take out whatever contents they like and walk away.  They're not involved in any conflict because they've not opted into PvP so they can simply not acknowledge you and walk away.  You can't engage in PvP in front of NPCs without a DM, so the thief can simply log out when they feel like it.

It seems to me that it would be a lot simpler and make a lot more sense to simply say that the trash can falls under the same rules required to steal from someone normally.  That would eliminate any method of abuse, doesn't require any changes to OCR, doesn't require moving trash barrels or making trader's tables.

[EO]

Alternatively players could find other means of sharing loot before selling. The position is clear and we won’t start rebuilding all stores because players use a semi-OOC way of passing loot to the seller.

In the end if you feel like dumping your gear in some merchant’s trashcan is what you want to do then deal with the possible consequences.

[Iridni Ren]

In point of fact, those getting all bent out of shape about this are not listening to views other than their own or considering things from a different perspective. I absolutely come at this as a neutral observer, and  I think the developers do ,too. I was not involved in the incident that apparently sparked it, nor do I use the trash cans in this way to sort loot. If someone put something in the trash, I picked it up, and she said she wasn't done with it and wanted it back, I would give it back. If, however, I put something in the trash, another player grabbed it and said "Finders keepers, losers weepers," I also would think that it was my mistake.

Comparing this to pickpocketing is just simply not a fair comparison. These are items your PC only recently acquired--most likely either by killing those who had them in the past, or ninja looting them. Your PC is about to sell them for a pittance. So you've possessed them most likely what? An hour at the outside?

Something *on your person* ICly would be a clearly criminal act. It might be a treasured nonesuch or even an enchanted item that had part of your soul. It could be something you spent hours making. To steal it, someone invaded your personal space.

In contrast, ICly this is a trash can for disposing of unwanted items. The comparison to a crafted barrel is likewise false. If you want a fair comparison, consider if you were a merchant in the Western Outskirts with a crate you had made, and someone came up and started dumping her loot in your crate without asking. That's effectively what you are doing to the NPC merchant--if you claim this barrel is anything *but* a trash can.

[SardineTheAncestor]

The Dev response in this thread implies that taking the loot from a trash can is not opting in to PvP.  Given that you can't engage someone in PvP unless they've opted in

I don't think there is opt-in for PvP, just the instigator needs a proper IC reason. Getting disrespected, undermined, and belittled, especially in public, by having something grabbed out from under you, and then they walk away like nothing has happened--that might lead to escalation somewhere down the line. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, sometimes the winners are wrong to have resorted to violence or cornering people they disagree with. No one gets complete immunity to IC consequences when they take any IC action, and to afford them in this very specific scenario, we're ignoring the RP part of the RP server. It should all be sorted out IC.

[FinalHeaven]

The Dev response in this thread implies that taking the loot from a trash can is not opting in to PvP.  Given that you can't engage someone in PvP unless they've opted in

I don't think there is opt-in for PvP, just the instigator needs a proper IC reason. Getting disrespected, undermined, and belittled, especially in public, by having something grabbed out from under you, and then they walk away like nothing has happened--that might lead to escalation somewhere down the line. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, sometimes the winners are wrong to have resorted to violence or cornering people they disagree with. No one gets complete immunity to IC consequences when they take any IC action, and to afford them in this very specific scenario, we're ignoring the RP part of the RP server. It should all be sorted out IC.

I actually agree with you that down the line something may come of the "theft", but that doesn't really change the fact that it would be easier to simply have the trash barrel fall under the same rules as other thefts.  We're already suspending disbelief enough to suggest that the merchant doesn't care that you're using his barrel or that the items you put in and take out of it are potentially covered in garbage, I think we could go one step further to have the theft rules apply to the barrel as well to keep things clear and simple.

Or not.  You're definitely right that it's not a huge deal overall and I certainly won't complain about more ways to make money on a max stealth toon.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I really think it should fall under the same rules as other thefts. Most of these items get set down for a few seconds at most, and we have no other approximation of just setting them down in front of the merchant on the table right now, so who's to say we're not putting them on the barrel's lid? The intention is clear. The approaching thief will have likely overheard, "Put it all right here for me," and will receive bardsong bonuses to his hide/ms/soh which were intended for the group's seller to get better prices. It is no accidental thing to take an Amulet of Isis out of a trash barrel, with or without stealthing, and just walk away. It would definitely be metagame, and the player would be acting obtuse to stop people with an OOC immunity from IC consequences card.

[EO]

The Dev response in this thread implies that taking the loot from a trash can is not opting in to PvP.  Given that you can't engage someone in PvP unless they've opted in

I don't think there is opt-in for PvP, just the instigator needs a proper IC reason. Getting disrespected, undermined, and belittled, especially in public, by having something grabbed out from under you, and then they walk away like nothing has happened--that might lead to escalation somewhere down the line. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, sometimes the winners are wrong to have resorted to violence or cornering people they disagree with. No one gets complete immunity to IC consequences when they take any IC action, and to afford them in this very specific scenario, we're ignoring the RP part of the RP server. It should all be sorted out IC.

There is an opt in for PvP. The other party must have contributed to the conflict’s escalation. I encourage people to reread the PvP rules.

Our stance has been made clear here. At this point you can disagree but you’ll have to live with the ruling.

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm all for the discouragement of that fairly OOC practice. It's a bit silly, really, and the determination of people to then on-the-fly construct a barrel to sort your loot in the middle of someone else's shop is also very immersion breaking.


Whenever I have engaged in sorting loot in a dungeon for the selling PC, we would lay down all of the items on the floor of the boss room once all the loot was gathered and everything was dead. We'd then let the merchant guy pick it all up and go about his business merchanting. The idea of carrying extra wood, a carpentry kit and all that other junk, building it in the middle of someone's store, and then letting your merchant guy pick it up there is just.. Silly. If you want to do that somewhere else that isn't at the merchant, or infront of NPCs, that would be more realistic.

[SardineTheAncestor]

There is an opt in for PvP. The other party must have contributed to the conflict’s escalation. I encourage people to reread the PvP rules.

Our stance has been made clear here. At this point you can disagree but you’ll have to live with the ruling.

It looks like we're in complete agreement then (given my most recent post). I'm sure the straightforward nature of this ruling won't elude anyone.

[Arawn]

There is an opt in for PvP. The other party must have contributed to the conflict’s escalation. I encourage people to reread the PvP rules.

Our stance has been made clear here. At this point you can disagree but you’ll have to live with the ruling.

It looks like we're in complete agreement then (given my most recent post). I'm sure the straightforward nature of this ruling won't elude anyone.

Just to clarify—the policy is that anything put in a trash can may be taken, and any further PvP against that person will require opting-in beyond the mere act of taking something from the trash can, which is not sufficient.

Since the topic has played out, I’ve locked the thread.