Expose button suggestion

[Ard]

....or use waterskin on stealther , he should drink it getting out of stealth... maybe...

Test this aswell.

Both suggestions are exploits and poor PvP practices and would lead to the appropriate punishment.

Right, good to know and have it clarified.
Again, I only wished to help with the topic question.

[Kamfrenchie]

A middle ground does not appeal to me because simply knowing someone is present makes a huge difference and prompts a storm of buffs and search attempts from the would-be detectors.

What you're objecting to, however, is realistic behaviour.

Being able to detect signs that you're being stalked or followed without necessarily pinpointing exactly where the stalker is, and then going on guard, is much more realistic than the current set-up where you either can come within 20 of the stealther's score and are eventually guaranteed success; or your detection is useless. (I appreciate that Listen is more complicated, but nonetheless, the point stands that the range of values of conflict in detection vs stealth is effectively very small.)

Furthermore, the point directly leads to more mechanical freedom: if you increase the range at which detection might be useful even if not totally effective (say from 20 to 40), it also gives more freedom for devs to work with both for detection _and_ stealth. In other words: if detection can still be marginally useful if it comes within 40 of a stealther's score, then that means there's more freedom to push stealth scores up in general.

Frankly, the NWN stealth engine is bad. If we can find ideas to expand and improve it, let's do that, rather than stick with the status quo that swings on a knife's edge and thus encourages polarised and biased conversations.

This proposal would pretty much kill any chance to overhear whispers with any basic precaution.

The problem is that we re only speaking of one side of realism. IRL you could hear noise that are just done by an animal and believe it s a spy or a danger. These kinds of false positive wont happen here. Therefore as soon as the message pops up you will know for sure someone is sneaking instead of being like "i hear an unusual noise but not sure if it is significant".

As someone else pointed out you cant read on lips. But you also cant tail someone by blending in the crowd or  disguise yourself. There isnt a significant enough npc traffic for it to work and your name shows up anyways. You cant peek through locks or windows. Climb on chimneys. You cant track someone running with a heavy armor and tons of weights. You can only follow him slowly and lose him if he runs.

[Hypatia]

those are great points. 

[immasturgeon]

My main character makes use of both stealth and detection, thus I am heavily invested in understanding the particulars of the system.  My abilities of detection far outstrip my ability to sneak such that, were I trying, I could detect myself 100% of the time. Every time without fail.

A full outfitted and specialized detector will detect a fully outfitted and specialized sneak of the same level nearly all the time. The peak values are well balanced and, in fact, biased in favor of detection.

The only suggestion I have is examining the rate that high tier spot gear drops in relation to stealth gear. Listen gear is readily available and not overly expensive. (In defense of that position I say that I use the listen mechanic, and this would not benefit either of my current characters.) I'm not even convinced it needs to be done, but as the team is always tugging systems one way or the other it might be something to consider in the future.

[Hypatia]

I’m not worried about balance. I thinks fine. I’m worried about the immersion breaking absurdity of a detector standing next to a stealhed person literally touching them, but they won’t come out of stealth and no one can see them. How are you suppose to RP that? It’s silly. Hopefully most people will self police themselves and not remain stealthed when it’s silly. It would be really nice if there was a I’ll-save type glitterdust spell that could be used.

[EO]

I’m not worried about balance. I thinks fine. I’m worried about the immersion breaking absurdity of a detector standing next to a stealhed person literally touching them, but they won’t come out of stealth and no one can see them. How are you suppose to RP that? It’s silly. Hopefully most people will self police themselves and not remain stealthed when it’s silly. It would be really nice if there was a I’ll-save type glitterdust spell that could be used.

Please remain civil.

And once again, since it may not have been clear, while you are free to debate this topic, there are no plans whatsoever from the team to reopen the stealth system.

[Firalyn]

I'm kind of curious now because this sounds oddly familiar to a situation that happened to my character a few days ago.

I was following a group through tergs, then after that group went back outside one of them happened to see through my stealth for a moment because of the transition bug- proceeded to run to my characters location and yell "Someone is here!".

In a situation like that I will not unstealth, nor should that information be usable in character in my opinion.

Were it be the case that my character was spotted through legit means and then the one that spotted them started to talk to them, sure- different story. I would've engaged in RP and not walked off instead.

[Day Old Bread]

I'm kind of curious now because this sounds oddly familiar to a situation that happened to my character a few days ago.

I was following a group through tergs, then after that group went back outside one of them happened to see through my stealth for a moment because of the transition bug- proceeded to run to my characters location and yell "Someone is here!".

In a situation like that I will not unstealth, nor should that information be usable in character in my opinion.

Were it be the case that my character was spotted through legit means and then the one that spotted them started to talk to them, sure- different story. I would've engaged in RP and not walked off instead.

+1 all the way.

This happens way to often, and it really breaks immersion for the stealth character as well.  So it does go both ways.

[Hypatia]

Magylos I totally agree.  Transition glitch should not count as spotting and you should probably have shot them a message asking them not to RP having seen you.

[Kamfrenchie]

I’m not worried about balance. I thinks fine. I’m worried about the immersion breaking absurdity of a detector standing next to a stealhed person literally touching them, but they won’t come out of stealth and no one can see them. How are you suppose to RP that? It’s silly. Hopefully most people will self police themselves and not remain stealthed when it’s silly. It would be really nice if there was a I’ll-save type glitterdust spell that could be used.

Iguess you could make a feydust equivalent purchasable  and maybe extend the radius. The best items like cloak of stone and slayer's robe lower reflex, so there are more counterplays.

You really have to abstract some things. A stealther wouldn't just stand a meter away, true, he would read lips or use something to hear better. But we can't do that at present, so standing near the folks it is.
Also note that even a max stealth character trying to spy upon a 0 detection pc will give himself away opening a door, without even mentionning traps or alarm. While in the case of doors you could argue the master sneak would quietly open it while no one is looking and slip through.

You can't rationalise a lot of stealth looting otherwise.


I mean, polymorhing into a mouse or an inset would for that kind of universe be the best kind of spying, but we can't really do that either. Even if we had the spells, the name would show up.

[Iridni Ren]

Mechanics are to ensure balance more than they are to ensure immersion, as the latter is a state within the player's mind.

RP can finesse immersion; it can't finesse imbalance.

[APorg]

This proposal would pretty much kill any chance to overhear whispers with any basic precaution.

No: re-read my post. I suggest it as part of a general re-balance of stealth that can afford to push stealth scores up because detection is made more broadly useful.

But you've also kind of proven my point: when faced with a suggestion to expand the system, you respond with standard pro-stealth points. You've retreated to the old biases rather than engage with the idea. This is the sort of defensiveness the current stealth system encourages because there is so little breathing room between success and failure.

[Kerby]

Is there a facing component in NWN?  Like, -20 spot to things behind you and +10 to things in your visual line of sight?  -10 listen to things directly behind you?

Is there a environmental component in NWN?  Darkened areas give +20 to stealth.  Well lit areas give -10 to hide?  Bare, open areas that are well lit give a -30 to hide.  Near a waterfall is +10 to MS and -10 to listen checks?  Perhaps a bonus to stealth when an neutral NPC is within a certain distance (to reflect hiding in a crowd, or disguising oneself)?

Is there a proximity adjustment to steath?  -10 hide within 5 feet.  +10 hide more than 20 feet?  If someone is standing nose to nose in front of me, in a well lit area, and I am not blinded, there isn't any reason that I should not see them.  Why wouldn't that be considered an exploit as much as exposing someone using an in-game system?

Do whispers have a different range they are broadcast to those around you?  Would giving a -20 to listen checks fix whispers?

Can you use Tells if you are whispering into someone else's ear?  Send out an emote saying *cups hands and whispers directly into Jacob's ear* and then send them Tells to avoid this whole quandary about overhearing whispers?

[Kamfrenchie]

This proposal would pretty much kill any chance to overhear whispers with any basic precaution.

No: re-read my post. I suggest it as part of a general re-balance of stealth that can afford to push stealth scores up because detection is made more broadly useful.

But you've also kind of proven my point: when faced with a suggestion to expand the system, you respond with standard pro-stealth points. You've retreated to the old biases rather than engage with the idea. This is the sort of defensiveness the current stealth system encourages because there is so little breathing room between success and failure.

Ok. I misunderstood the first point. However it has been saod they wont make big change to stealth anyways.
Besides. If you want to increase the range of scores for stealth and detection wouldnt that make gear even more important than skill points ? 

As for the rest i just dont see it happening because of engine limitations and dev time. So these kind of actions (grappling, peeking through lock and tailing) will only exist in a dm plot or with dm intervention.....( or if all the players involved are just open about what they are doing with each other).

[MJ_Johansson]

Is there a facing component in NWN?  Like, -20 spot to things behind you and +10 to things in your visual line of sight?  -10 listen to things directly behind you?

Is there a environmental component in NWN?  Darkened areas give +20 to stealth.  Well lit areas give -10 to hide?  Bare, open areas that are well lit give a -30 to hide.  Near a waterfall is +10 to MS and -10 to listen checks?  Perhaps a bonus to stealth when an neutral NPC is within a certain distance (to reflect hiding in a crowd, or disguising oneself)?

Is there a proximity adjustment to steath?  -10 hide within 5 feet.  +10 hide more than 20 feet?  If someone is standing nose to nose in front of me, in a well lit area, and I am not blinded, there isn't any reason that I should not see them.  Why wouldn't that be considered an exploit as much as exposing someone using an in-game system?

Do whispers have a different range they are broadcast to those around you?  Would giving a -20 to listen checks fix whispers?

Can you use Tells if you are whispering into someone else's ear?  Send out an emote saying *cups hands and whispers directly into Jacob's ear* and then send them Tells to avoid this whole quandary about overhearing whispers?

This is taken from the nwn Wiki:
Additional modifiersEdit
+10 DC if the spotter is in combat.
+5 DC if the target is standing still.
-5 DC if the spotter is standing still.
Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
Area spot check modifiers.
+5 DC for stealthed players (only), if they are in the back arc.
+5 DC at night if the spotter does not have a light (or darkvision).
-10 DC at night if the target has a light source on them.


+10 DC if the listener is in combat.
+5 DC if the target is standing still.
-5 DC if the listener is standing still.
+1 DC for every 3 meters between listener and target.
Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
+5 DC for every 40cm of object (including creatures) between listener and target in outdoor areas.
+2 DC in indoor areas if the line of sight is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles.
Area listen check modifiers.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Can you use Tells if you are whispering into someone else's ear?  Send out an emote saying *cups hands and whispers directly into Jacob's ear* and then send them Tells to avoid this whole quandary about overhearing whispers?

I'm still new and not sure on the particulars of some rules, but I heard that this is against the rules.

[BraveSirRobin]

That's against the rules, technically speaking.

[Sammylix]

Why not take advantage of the RPXP of whisper?

[Iridni Ren]

Can you use Tells if you are whispering into someone else's ear?  Send out an emote saying *cups hands and whispers directly into Jacob's ear* and then send them Tells to avoid this whole quandary about overhearing whispers?

I'm still new and not sure on the particulars of some rules, but I heard that this is against the rules.

IMO this would be situational and require a DM's ruling (if challenged) as to whether it violated the rules. It is an area of RP rather than pure mechanics, and as we cannot force rolls on one another, it seems to me outside the range of one condition or another always being true.

In point of fact, some players may be in the same real-life room with one another or certainly connected in voice chat, making enforcing this Tell "rule" such that it would penalize players who abide by it versus those who communicate through other channels.

The principle is that we should act on information only our character knows, never information we receive OOCly. Tells tend to be OOC, but at least the specific given is set up somewhat ICly, making it somewhat preferable to something shared via Chat. And, for example, other PCs at least know *something* was whispered between the two.

I have been involved in situations with highly respected players (including members of the CC) in which my PC was sent clarifying information about a conversation we were having via Tells, for example. It would seem odd, therefore, if this is always a rulebreak.

[DM Brimstone]

Tells are OOC and shouldn't be used to communicate whether in stealth or not. The DM team has discussed this previously and came to this consensus:

"All Tells are to be considered purely OOC communication. Emoting, whispering, or any other IC action must be done in a whisper (/w) or in talk (/tk). This prevents the use of Tells to circumvent the Stealth and Listen mechanics found in the game engine. This includes any form of 'telepathy'."

[ladylena]

Can someone hear your whisper from stealth? I always thought that unless you were detected your whispers wouldn't be heard?

[zDark Shadowz]

I think they're just referring to people stealthing close to listen in on other people whispering. If you cant detect the stealther, you cant hear them and they're not allowed to use tells either to 'talk'/'whisper' to people that haven't detected. (Which annoyed me when an MPC used their floating yellow texts to do exactly that.)

[RedwizardD]

The change to not allow hidden characters to be 'heard' always struck me as unusual and awkward. The character is supposed to be hiding, not phased out of existence.

[Ercvadasz]

Well even though as it was stated it is not going to get changed i would just give a few of my thoughts.
(From ranger perspective!)

- So i invested all my points in spot. I also have some decent spot gear. Not the best, but not the worst neither. (got even 1 hector ring!). However if i compare my character to a same level cleric or druid. They negate and surpass the invested skill points easily. Even if they have only merely half the points(if they bother to invest in spot),  they easily make up for it just via spells or feats. Empowered/maximised owls wis, owls insight...prayer  (And let us face it most of the time you will have a hard time finding someone willing to cast the spot/listen enhancing spells on your characters.) And druid with their new feats....if they stack then it is a flat 12 spot bonus. Also in comparision to my previous sneaker char of nearly the same level, who was not such a dedicated sneaker since he did NOT take up the sneak feats, i would still not notice him. Simply because his sneak gear outweighs the spot gear so badly. (Especially now with a few new potions and items he would be an even better sneaker, had in 2011 on level 14 62/60 sneak)

-Spot does not earn you any gold, whereas ninjalooting does. Spot though can earn you some minor xp, or search not sure.(You may have a hidden check of one of the mentioned two skills for some minor xp in certain areas.) But so can sneak both directly and indirectly.(direct: successfull near fail sneak check, certain areas where you can get different mobs kill off each other and give you a bounty with good xp , indirect: items obtained through sneak allows you more possibilities)

-I am unsure if i know all the spot items in game, but as per my calculations a dedicated sneaker who is maxed out on sneak is somewhere around 105+ to a max of maybe 120? (race and other modifiers). Whereas if i calculated well currently spot will cap around 82(?) or so. (with this 82 did not take into consideration the druid feats!, but multiple classes using spot enhancing magic and feats like bard song on you.)

-Regarding the spot items vs the sneak items, I have yet to see a single item (beside the telescope i think) that is a handheld item and gives bonus to spot. Whereas the +1/+1 +2/+2 +3/+3 +4/+4 sneak items are NOT that uncommon.(Also interestingly enough all these sneak items are weapons, for instance a bow is quite a good choice for a higher level sneak ranger with bane bow or hawk's)

-Regarding potions there is currently owls wisdom, TS and the keen senses potions if i know well. On the other hand we have chameleon, 1wthland and tiptoe and cats grace.

-Another issue with spot vs stealth is, that the spot classes, if they employ their spot gears, will be terribly at a disadvantage.
Lower AC, lower Saves, lower everything. For a sneaker it is not necessarily so, since well they can use powerfull magic. Especially since PM and Bards are both sneak chars.
(Is also funny how tiptoe/light step is not a ranger spell, but that is a different concern or topic)

- Shrouded Dance in this regard can be considered quite OP as well, since if you spot someone needing a 20 to spot him, just one button push and he or she is gone again, and depending on the pseudo random generator well you may never notice him or her again.

- Currently as i see it spot has more disadvantages than advantages regarding sneaks. If i would have not amassed the spot gear on this char originally i would have switched over to listen during my remake. //As i heard though not sure about this, that having a higher listen also extends the range from where you can hear whispers. //

[Iridni Ren]

EO said there were no plans to re-open the stealth system. I took that to mean more how it works.

I don't think it means, for example, that no new detect gear will ever be considered.