Author Topic: Expose button suggestion  (Read 10304 times)

haifisch021

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2019, 06:05:44 PM »
Well stated Iridni. I do agree that they're is something to the idea. 

Personally, I think, if a stalker is spotted, truly, then the spotter can roll a spot or listen check to prove sufficient skill.

This allows the stealthed to know they've been detected. And opens the door for RP.

As Haifisch pointed out, you can use physical means to do so. A grapple is after all a cvc action. What's the difference if you just punch or non lethal the sneaker instead?

I agree with your reasoning. However, you are arguing for ideal circumstances. While a stealther may choose to break stealth due to a spot or listen roll, they are under no obligation to do so unless the check is enforced by a DM. As for punching or NLing a sneaker, the difference is that doing so does not break stealth. You can wail on that person all you want but their stealth will remain intact as long as the stealther wishes (assuming you do not kill the person). Additionally, there is a problem with the way stealth is regarded in terms of PvP. I personally would consider stealthing near another player as an act of PvP, but according to the server rules, it is not. Hitting someone else, however, is. One implication of this is that a stealther is free to do as they please around other players (be it sneak around them or spy upon them) and if they are spotted by one individual, but not another, and they happen to be near an NPC, there is no recourse, as PvP in front of NPCs without a DM present is a rule break. To me, this seems unbalanced. I don't think that an argument against this feat from a balance perspective is reasonable unless this specific instance is addressed.
Me miserable! which way shall I fly
Infinite wrath and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is hell; myself am hell;
And in the lowest deep a lower deep,
Still threat’ning to devour me, opens wide,
To which the hell I suffer seems a heaven.

Day Old Bread

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1962
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2019, 06:18:54 PM »
You are right in that the player has no obligation to reveal themselves. And unfortunately, pvp in front of an NPC is a rule break too.

As far as it being an ideal situation, well, nothing you can do about bad players playing badly, other than document, and avoid play with them in the future.

The issue with the feat/reveal ability is that it would significantly skew the balance in favor of detectors. I think it's something like this were implemented,
 stealth would become irrelevant.

What about fixing stat dumping instead? So you can only put 1 point per level per class? That would greatly reduce the number of people with really high stealth numbers and keep it in the realm of rogues, bards, and rangers primarily. It would also increase the value of dedicated rogues.


haifisch021

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2019, 06:28:05 PM »

As far as it being an ideal situation, well, nothing you can do about bad players playing badly, other than document, and avoid play with them in the future.


When I say you are expecting an ideal situation, I don't mean that you are assuming there will be no rulebreaks. I mean that you are assuming that a person will be receptive to a non-obligatory roll without a DM present. If you are in conflict with someone else and you do not intend to lose that conflict, you are going to act in your own self interest. If someone performs an action that would put you at a disadvantage, but you are not required to validate their action, you aren't going to do it. Sure, it would be nice of you to willingly break stealth because someone rolled a 99 or whatever on their spot check, but if you don't want to get killed/ratted out/arrested/etc, you just won't bother acknowledging their roll.

And since this is within the confines of the rules of the server, it isn't fair to put the onus on the stealther for ignoring your ultimately meaningless detection roll. The blame in this case falls on the server, and to address this issue you must either provide a means of dealing with this situation, change the rules to prohibit the actions that cause this situation to occur, or ignore it. While the server has addressed this issue by allowing DMs to necessitate the acknowledgement of some rolls on a case-by-case basis, this method is inadequate because this requires the presence of a DM and to do so would place undue burden on the Team. Therefore, I think the best solution would be implementing a tool with which players may properly and adequately address the above situation, and I think that this tool would be a good fit for the job.
Me miserable! which way shall I fly
Infinite wrath and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is hell; myself am hell;
And in the lowest deep a lower deep,
Still threat’ning to devour me, opens wide,
To which the hell I suffer seems a heaven.

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2019, 06:34:34 PM »
If stealth is too strong, it is easy to fix without drastic changes. A skill point is a skill point, so at the skill level it is easy to match hide and MS with spot and listen. It follows, then, that feats and gear must be major sources of the imbalance.

Some suggestions might be:

* Increase the availability of detection gear (because removing stealth gear would leave those with old items at an advantage over all new PCs).

* Possibly un-nerf some detection spells such as True Seeing. (1st level bard spell gives +20 to Listen skill with Amplify, but a 20th level cleric/druid/sorc/wizard using a 5th level spell--or greater--only gets +10 to Spot.)  Amplify potion is much easier to brew than True Seeing.

* Remove Shrouded Dance.

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

haifisch021

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2019, 06:38:28 PM »
If stealth is too strong, it is easy to fix without drastic changes. A skill point is a skill point, so at the skill level it is easy to match hide and MS with spot and listen. It follows, then, that feats and gear must be major sources of the imbalance.

Some suggestions might be:

* Increase the availability of detection gear (because removing stealth gear would leave those with old items at an advantage over all new PCs).

* Possibly un-nerf some detection spells such as True Seeing. (1st level bard spell gives +20 to Listen skill with Amplify, but a 20th level cleric/druid/sorc/wizard using a 5th level spell--or greater--only gets +10 to Spot).  Amplify potion is much easier to brew than True Seeing.

* Remove Shrouded Dance.

Aside from removing Shrouded Dance, I don't know if this would be a good fix. Granted, I argue back and forth about it all the time, but from what I can tell the consensus is that gear balance between detection and stealth gear is reasonably balanced, and un-nerfing True Seeing would definitely making detection too powerful. When any wizard with a fat wallet can become a top tier detector despite not having detection skills as a class feature, a buff to True Seeing would be simply catastrophic for the playstyle of any stealther around.

As for Shrouded Dance... In my opinion this feat is not a good addition to the server and I have maintained this position since before it was released. Not only does it give any stealther with 5 Perform a free HiPS per rest, it also completely invalidates the Shadowdancer PrC. See this link for more (and feel free to necro and contribute!)
https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48338.0
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 06:40:53 PM by haifisch021 »
Me miserable! which way shall I fly
Infinite wrath and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is hell; myself am hell;
And in the lowest deep a lower deep,
Still threat’ning to devour me, opens wide,
To which the hell I suffer seems a heaven.

zDark Shadowz

  • Guest
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2019, 06:39:54 PM »
Faerie Fire & Light spells are a thing, attacking sneaks until they reveal themselves another.

Druids get high spot through hawkvision/ catsvision, insight potions (easily brewed), True seeing... I guess druids are the best at exposing sneaks with their spells after their high detection, and you don't want to stealth away through consecutive creeping dooms.

ASymphony

  • Professional Shitposter
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2019, 06:41:15 PM »
Generally speaking, nwn is significantly biased in favor of the spotter, due to the way detect rolls work. Beyond that, to remain undetected successfully and continuously, a stealth-pc has to invest a lot more in terms of skills, feats and gear then a spotter in contrast needs to catch them. (To be entirely undetectable, their hide/ms score has to be 20 points higher then the oppositions spot/listen. Thats a fair bit of stuff.)

haifisch021

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2019, 06:50:50 PM »
Faerie Fire & Light spells are a thing, attacking sneaks until they reveal themselves another.

Druids get high spot through hawkvision/ catsvision, insight potions (easily brewed), True seeing... I guess druids are the best at exposing sneaks with their spells after their high detection, and you don't want to stealth away through consecutive creeping dooms.


Druids are pretty overpowered all around, but that's a topic for another thread.

Generally speaking, nwn is significantly biased in favor of the spotter, due to the way detect rolls work. Beyond that, to remain undetected successfully and continuously, a stealth-pc has to invest a lot more in terms of skills, feats and gear then a spotter in contrast needs to catch them. (To be entirely undetectable, their hide/ms score has to be 20 points higher then the oppositions spot/listen. Thats a fair bit of stuff.)

One difference between investment in stealth and investment in detection is the scope of the results. If you invest heavily in detection, you net a very personal benefit. You specifically can see stealthers but you cannot extend that benefit onto anyone else beyond saying "Hey there's a stealther there, just trust me." If you invest heavily into stealth, your benefit is that anyone without detection cannot, well detect you. And while it is true that there is a 20 point gap between stealth and detection, most builds on the server are not capable of achieving high detection, whereas any build that incorporates any amount of ranger or rogue can realistically achieve high level stealth. To address this I would default to ZDark Shadowz's "one skill point per level" idea, but I do not think that both his idea and the idea proposed in this thread would be a reasonable addition in conjunction because adding both would skew balance too far in favor of detection.
Me miserable! which way shall I fly
Infinite wrath and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is hell; myself am hell;
And in the lowest deep a lower deep,
Still threat’ning to devour me, opens wide,
To which the hell I suffer seems a heaven.

zDark Shadowz

  • Guest
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2019, 06:57:21 PM »
Ah, how long ago was that post you said I made or did you mean to refer to someone else.... I have awful memory.

APorg

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Fanatic Xenophile
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2019, 07:00:18 PM »
I would personally like to see the listen skill worked on to act like the paladin detect. If a person happens to hear a sneak close by, rather than “seeing them”, they should receive a yellow text pop up that states something like “You hear something suspicious six feet to the west”, or something along those lines.

I think this is a cool idea. Maybe not with precise measurements.

But the idea of introducing imprecise partial detection is good. Right now, there is only either total success for the detector or total success for the stealther.

A medium state, where the detector doesn't get a precise fix on the stealther but has a suspicion they're being stalked, would be a highly desirable mid-state.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2081
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2019, 07:33:57 PM »
I would personally like to see the listen skill worked on to act like the paladin detect. If a person happens to hear a sneak close by, rather than “seeing them”, they should receive a yellow text pop up that states something like “You hear something suspicious six feet to the west”, or something along those lines.

I think this is a cool idea. Maybe not with precise measurements.

But the idea of introducing imprecise partial detection is good. Right now, there is only either total success for the detector or total success for the stealther.

A medium state, where the detector doesn't get a precise fix on the stealther but has a suspicion they're being stalked, would be a highly desirable mid-state.

If you detect someone with Listen, you can also lose track of them as they aren't 'spotted' properly, just revealed to you up until the point you fail a Listen DC. People who are detected via Listen tend to phase in and out without a need for them to break LoS, whereas a Spotter once they Spot someone, they are detected until they break LoS again.

Listen also has different situational modifiers compared to Spot. The two skills are different, and in the current meta, most Stealthers lean more heavily onto Move Silently than Hide, due to the fact that the easiest buffs to get are Listen buffs. This ironically gives Spotters a better chance of spotting someone because of the rarity of Spot equipment and the fact that it only a Wizard or Cleric will manage to get the full use of True Seeing, and they don't have Spot as a class skill.

PlatointheCave

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 897
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2019, 07:40:30 PM »
Listen working like a detect would make it far worse than spot for actually targeting sneakers to the point that it ceases to be useful.

A middle ground does not appeal to me because simply knowing someone is present makes a huge difference and prompts a storm of buffs and search attempts from the would-be detectors.

Kinga

  • 🎀𝐸𝓁𝒹𝓇𝒾𝓉𝒸𝒽 𝒢𝑜𝒹𝒹𝑒𝓈𝓈🎀
  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
  • 𝐵𝑒 𝒢𝒶𝓎 𝒟𝑜 𝒞𝓇𝒾𝓂𝑒𝓈
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2019, 07:58:37 PM »
If you want to detect people - make a detect build. Making a stealthy character requires a lot of patience and money - why spot should be different?

TheFury

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
  • "As you can see, Drew is the server bully."-Deceit
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2019, 12:25:35 AM »
If you want to detect people - make a detect build. Making a stealthy character requires a lot of patience and money - why spot should be different?

Detect doesn't make you any money is the difference. Maybe that should change (hiring a snoop could be a good RP experience) but you can't ninjaloot with a detector. All the richest people I know are stealth builds.
Get yourself a weapon that spits unending fire.
Discord Info: Kaithas#7352
Inactive. PM me for Trentor Atiens.
Happy Ending Offenders: Famorra Arendayel, Kymil Lornenil.

zDark Shadowz

  • Guest
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2019, 12:30:18 AM »
... invisibility replaces stealth when it comes to loot, all stealth does is slow you down so you can sneak closer to enemies in passing.

FinalHeaven

  • Ba'al Verzi
  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1816
  • dat boi
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2019, 01:00:50 AM »
If you want to detect people - make a detect build. Making a stealthy character requires a lot of patience and money - why spot should be different?

Detect doesn't make you any money is the difference. Maybe that should change (hiring a snoop could be a good RP experience) but you can't ninjaloot with a detector. All the richest people I know are stealth builds.

As a ninjalooter on all of my characters, the richest people I know are not doing what I do.  You also do not need stealth to ninjaloot.



Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2019, 01:13:08 AM »
None of the above is responsive to the detect/stealth comparison. That is, there may be other ways to ninja loot, but a point in detect is never going to help you ninja loot.

Are Crypt Raiders not designed to be ninja looters? Are they not a stealth class?

Also...

Quote
Making a stealthy character requires a lot of patience and money - why spot should be different?

This presumes comparable quality and quantity of detect gear. Stealth gear has seen its value drop considerably, as aprog has pointed out many times, with some of the good items of the past now becoming vendor trash. This means that it is cheaper to build a stealthy PC than before...and as with stat investment, the comparable (and seemingly less plentiful) detect gear doesn't earn you any coin.

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

FinalHeaven

  • Ba'al Verzi
  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1816
  • dat boi
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2019, 01:54:01 AM »
Equally, the idea that it is somehow more difficult to stack a detect skill over a stealth skill is inaccurate.  While there is no doubt that acquiring the rare spot gear is a difficult or costly challenge, the same is not the case for Listen gear.  All of the basic Listen gear is as equally available as the basic stealth gear.  My current character is not even a dedicated detector and can reach a Listen skill of 60.  This is not including any bonus from a Bard.  This means that I will detect someone who's Move Silently is not above 80, which is a very respectable stealth score.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 01:58:36 AM by FinalHeaven »



Ard

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Exploit theoretician
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2019, 02:42:11 AM »
Can someone do a test for me?

Can someone assign "Talk to" in the quick slot and use it on a stealthed character?

Tell if it makes stealther react as a npc with generic "hello" or something , taking him out of stealth.

Thanks !
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 02:52:12 AM by Ard »

Hypatia

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 321
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2019, 03:29:01 AM »
Oh wow.  Wouldn’t that be brilliant!? Haha

Ard

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Exploit theoretician
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2019, 04:08:44 AM »
....or use waterskin on stealther , he should drink it getting out of stealth... maybe...

Test this aswell.

ASymphony

  • Professional Shitposter
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2019, 04:21:22 AM »
That would probably earn you a talking to by a DM.

Ard

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Exploit theoretician
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2019, 04:24:32 AM »
That would probably earn you a talking to by a DM.

... just tried to help ¯\_('-')_/¯


Although it could be rp'ed as spotter (the one who saw) cleaning off sleather's camouflage with the water... ?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 04:30:37 AM by Ard »

APorg

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Fanatic Xenophile
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2019, 04:29:59 AM »
A middle ground does not appeal to me because simply knowing someone is present makes a huge difference and prompts a storm of buffs and search attempts from the would-be detectors.

What you're objecting to, however, is realistic behaviour.

Being able to detect signs that you're being stalked or followed without necessarily pinpointing exactly where the stalker is, and then going on guard, is much more realistic than the current set-up where you either can come within 20 of the stealther's score and are eventually guaranteed success; or your detection is useless. (I appreciate that Listen is more complicated, but nonetheless, the point stands that the range of values of conflict in detection vs stealth is effectively very small.)

Furthermore, the point directly leads to more mechanical freedom: if you increase the range at which detection might be useful even if not totally effective (say from 20 to 40), it also gives more freedom for devs to work with both for detection _and_ stealth. In other words: if detection can still be marginally useful if it comes within 40 of a stealther's score, then that means there's more freedom to push stealth scores up in general.

Frankly, the NWN stealth engine is bad. If we can find ideas to expand and improve it, let's do that, rather than stick with the status quo that swings on a knife's edge and thus encourages polarised and biased conversations.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 05:30:35 AM by aprogressivist »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22498
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: Expose button suggestion
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2019, 08:51:18 AM »
....or use waterskin on stealther , he should drink it getting out of stealth... maybe...

Test this aswell.

Both suggestions are exploits and poor PvP practices and would lead to the appropriate punishment.