Author Topic: On the ECL System  (Read 11305 times)

APorg

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2019, 05:19:53 PM »
Even so, I would be fine with removing these races if their presence was decided to be a net negative for the server. What I take issue with is saying they are alright to play, but then using a tool meant for something else (PC balance) and trying to use it to manage the population distribution.

The ECL mechanic is fundamentally unbalanced and unsuitable for PotM since it offers a source of permanent Ability buffs -- which we're not even allowed to get from items, otherwise a 3.x staple, only from Dark Powers, here.

You cannot make a point of balance purism when you ignore the frankly very awkward place ECL occupies on PotM balance. You're trying to polish a turd.
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herkles

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2019, 05:23:51 PM »
The ECL mechanic is fundamentally unbalanced and unsuitable for PotM since it offers a source of permanent Ability buffs -- which we're not even allowed to get from items, otherwise a 3.x staple, only from Dark Powers, here.

It does?


APorg

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2019, 05:29:29 PM »
It does?

Example from the SRD: ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofCharisma )

Quote
Cloak of Charisma
This lightweight and fashionable cloak has a highly decorative silver trim. When in a character’s possession, it adds a +2, +4, or +6 enhancement bonus to her Charisma score.

Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, eagle’s splendor; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6); Weight 2 lb.

On PotM these things don't exist (barring a few ultra-rare grandfathered items); only Dark Powers give permanent Ability buffs.
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FellowMan

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2019, 05:54:09 PM »
On PotM these things don't exist (barring a few ultra-rare grandfathered items); only Dark Powers give permanent Ability buffs.

I feel like you might be talking about nonhuman races in general, as all of them have ability boosts in some form.

We're specifically talking about those races and subraces that are marked out as deserving ECL adjustment, here.

You might note the previous Chaos Gnome example. Such gnomes boast +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha, and -2 Str, and are not an ECL race.

APorg

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2019, 06:05:49 PM »
That Chaos Gnomes have silly stat lines and no ECL doesn't address anything I've said; it just means Chaos Gnomes have silly stat lines. The main issue with ECL races on this server are their Ability buffs. Those are a rarity.
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Quatral

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2019, 06:14:13 PM »
That Chaos Gnomes have silly stat lines and no ECL doesn't address anything I've said; it just means Chaos Gnomes have silly stat lines. The main issue with ECL races on this server are their Ability buffs. Those are a rarity.

what do you mean bud

EO

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2019, 06:19:22 PM »
Chaos Gnomes should be ECL 1. This will be corrected next update.

FellowMan

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2019, 06:42:30 PM »
Chaos Gnomes should be ECL 1. This will be corrected next update.

It seems that even with the compromise we have to make on PotM by allowing tieflings to retain human bonuses, they still greater resemble an ECL 1 race than their current ECL 2. Their ability score net +2 is inferior to chaos gnomes' +4, and they lack immunity to a status effect (as chaos gnomes are immune to confusion).

In PnP, tieflings would not have the human bonuses they have on PotM, but they would also have immunity to "Person" spells, being categorized as native outsiders. On PotM, they count as Human, and so do not have a perk that should be factored into their level adjustment.

EO

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2019, 07:07:18 PM »
Chaos Gnomes should be ECL 1. This will be corrected next update.

It seems that even with the compromise we have to make on PotM by allowing tieflings to retain human bonuses, they still greater resemble an ECL 1 race than their current ECL 2. Their ability score net +2 is inferior to chaos gnomes' +4, and they lack immunity to a status effect (as chaos gnomes are immune to confusion).

In PnP, tieflings would not have the human bonuses they have on PotM, but they would also have immunity to "Person" spells, being categorized as native outsiders. On PotM, they count as Human, and so do not have a perk that should be factored into their level adjustment.

You're correct that tieflings would be counted as outsiders and that's easily fixed. I just haven't got around to it yet with NwNx functions. Being an outsider also means they are subject to many different outsider affecting spells and abilities (including Turn Undead for some cleric domains).

Kaospyri

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2019, 07:11:20 PM »
Chaos Gnomes should be ECL 1. This will be corrected next update.

It seems that even with the compromise we have to make on PotM by allowing tieflings to retain human bonuses, they still greater resemble an ECL 1 race than their current ECL 2. Their ability score net +2 is inferior to chaos gnomes' +4, and they lack immunity to a status effect (as chaos gnomes are immune to confusion).

In PnP, tieflings would not have the human bonuses they have on PotM, but they would also have immunity to "Person" spells, being categorized as native outsiders. On PotM, they count as Human, and so do not have a perk that should be factored into their level adjustment.

+1
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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2019, 09:32:04 PM »
Personally, I wouldn't mind so much keeping the painfully slow leveling, if ECL was able to rise to 20.  Since I feel its fair to take into account what would also be lost in those final unattainable levels.

I also just wanted to highlight this as it echos sentiments Ive felt.

there is an implication that by playing an Aasimar, say, we are doing something detrimental to this other player's enjoyment and hurting the setting. In game terms, that's about the worst criticism one can make (aside from cheating) and why we have a rule against criticizing the RP of someone else.
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Kaospyri

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2019, 10:35:33 PM »
Personally, I wouldn't mind so much keeping the painfully slow leveling, if ECL was able to rise to 20.  Since I feel its fair to take into account what would also be lost in those final unattainable levels.

I also just wanted to highlight this as it echos sentiments Ive felt.
 

Thing is it's not just slow levels, the game treats you as two levels higher for what does and does not give you xp. For example werewolves give a level 7 character xp, but do not give a level 7 tiefling or aasimar xp. Meaning that you're forced to face things outside of your weight class and cannot complete level appropriate content without being carried or a burden. You take longer and get less and will always be weaker than your peers and incapable of contributing even in actual rp important combats and similar situations with said peers.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 10:40:18 PM by Kaospyri »
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Iridni Ren

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2019, 10:55:18 PM »
To address briefly aprog's "turd polishing" concerns, I kind of think ability buffs are over-rated because of the lack of gear that gives them.

Potions are stackable to 99 now, and so a DC 15 potion requiring two easily obtainable herbs can practically grant a semi-permanent buff often in excess of what an ECL race gets.

Voracious buffs two different stats by +2.

I appreciate, however, that we're talking about game balance now,  and not whether PCs enrich or hurt the setting :)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 11:21:05 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Iridni Ren

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2019, 11:06:14 PM »
Chaos Gnomes should be ECL 1. This will be corrected next update.

Will this be retroactive?

Meaning existing Chaos Gnomes will have to apply to keep playing the PC?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 11:08:40 PM by Iridni Ren »

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EO

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2019, 06:34:24 AM »
Chaos Gnomes should be ECL 1. This will be corrected next update.

Will this be retroactive?

Meaning existing Chaos Gnomes will have to apply to keep playing the PC?

There's no application for Chaos Gnomes; not all ECL subraces require an application.

PlatointheCave

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« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2020, 02:57:36 AM »
These are races that ought to be rare. I'm fine with a heavy mechanical burden ensuring that they remain rare by disincentivising playing them.

I've tried it for myself now. I was wrong, it's horrible. I will never doubt Tifer again.

Kamfrenchie

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2020, 04:53:03 AM »
So.... should ecl effects be changed ? Or should ECL be lowered accross the board ?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 05:31:06 AM by Kamfrenchie »

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2020, 05:17:01 AM »
Aside from where Aasimar & Tiefling sit it's fine where it is I think. Hoping the solution to the skillpoints & extra feat off human (the often quoted reason it is ecl 2 instead of ecl 1) is resolved when additional races are added to the servers' character creation list.

In My Wake

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2020, 01:17:30 PM »
In my time playing a Tiefling (about a month now) I'd only say that I'd prefer the system be tweaked to simply reduce XP rather then give you no xp in the typical low level dungeoning circuit.  I quite enjoy playing an outcast character and the drawbacks that come with it.  But not gaining XP in fairly standard low level dungeons almost immediately makes me wish I'd just crack and go get myself power leveled.

Monktrus

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2020, 01:40:50 AM »
Agreed. ECL races should require more XP to advance, but they should be able to get that experience off of things that are dangerous to them/their current actual level.

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2020, 02:01:44 AM »
I've had Hersuvi since late February and my experience playing an ECL2 Tiefling hasn't been all that bad, if I'm being honest.

From levels 2 - 5 it seems to be a bit of a drag since the lower mobs don't give EXP but that's why Roleplay EXP exists, right? I'm confident in saying the majority of her early levelling was from such, hell most of her levelling seems to have been from Roleplay EXP.

My only gripe with the system is the unneeded extra ECL level for... no gain. A single feat and a few skillpoints is not worth it build wise (if it's to avoid "powerbuilding" I'd expect Voodan to have ECL3, thanks). If what I am told about the max level being cut from 20 to 18 is correct, that makes it even worse (Level 9 spells, please).

Overall, from my understanding, it's meant to be painful and I've enjoyed every damn second of it (I am someone who plays a Charisma based class on a race that has negative of such and also enchants needlessly, maybe I should be ignored).

Revenant

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2020, 02:23:33 AM »
The prevailing logic, I believe, is that the bonuses make you equal to a character higher than your sheet level.

Having played several ECL 2+ characters, that's more or less false, at least early on. BAB for martials, spell levels for casters, and general defense for everyone - you're not going to have enough to contribute meaningfully to what your ECL dictates you "should" be facing until you're in the level 8-11 range.

The typical experience, then, is ending up in the Mist Camp or similar and finding justification to attach yourself as a sponge until you reach the point where the importance of levels flattens. My most recent Drow, for example, ended up befriending a very high level wizard. It was perfectly natural and IC. More than one level was gained by corralling entire caves worth of werewolves and applying coup de grace to their Mass Held fluff. In between fuzzy cullings, I'd typically go back to Barovia and enjoy RPing, since I was more or less useless for actual on-level content.

For many people, though, what I've described is not too different an experience from the norm. I've never been fond of the "out of the Mists, straight to the MC" approach myself, but it's tried and true. The number of practically fresh tieflings I've seen show up there attests, anecdotally.

Regardless of your stance on the matter, though, I would not expect changes to this system. It has worked since its inception, so why change it?
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Iridni Ren

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2020, 09:43:44 AM »
The prevailing logic, I believe, is that the bonuses make you equal to a character higher than your sheet level.

Having played several ECL 2+ characters, that's more or less false, at least early on. BAB for martials, spell levels for casters, and general defense for everyone - you're not going to have enough to contribute meaningfully to what your ECL dictates you "should" be facing until you're in the level 8-11 range.

Having argued at least a couple of times for some sort of change, I would say that's part of the prevailing logic. Many features on the server are the way they are because of fear of that particular breed of player who has all the time and dedication in the world to accomplish whatever can be accomplished by dogged effort. So, given that the races are clearly mechanically superior, they have to be experience-gain punished to keep that player in check, rather than the average player (who will more likely be discouraged and give up...or give in to the Mist Camp sponge game as you describe).

The other part of the argument, however, is reflected in Plato's quote when he necroed the thread:

These are races that ought to be rare. I'm fine with a heavy mechanical burden ensuring that they remain rare by disincentivising playing them.

Many hold the opinion he himself expressed a year ago. And that's why no demonstrable disadvantage alone will change things. Some players are fine with making the game more difficult for what they see as the "snowflake" characters of other players so as to discourage them from being played.

Perhaps this would be another instance in which having an ARPC type would be useful. If ECL races are to be taken mainly for the RP they provide, then giving those dedicated to rapid, RP-driven story an XP boost would compensate for the handicap they face regarding dungeon XP. Plus their shortened timeframe would mitigate the fear of a long-term "indestructible" ECL build.

This is not to toot my own horn, but rather without any new solutions proposed, I don't think the Team will respond any differently to an argument that has occurred many times.

Even if Plato has changed his mind :D

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Kamfrenchie

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2020, 10:32:00 AM »
I guess it depends what you mean when you say "it has worked since the beginning". One could say the corpse hiding has "worked" a long time before it was decided to add scrying for  bringing back deads after x time.

I think ecl makes some sense on pen and paper when the dm can make sure the adventure is good for all pcs.
But gaining experience here is a rather long process that will have pcs clear the same dungeon repeatedly.

To me the ecl as it exists now just makes it more painful to progress and restrict your avenues. Sure there is RP xp but you will be forced to leave vallaki sooner.

If the concern is that the tiefling aasimars should be rare, shouldnt itbe addressed by the application process, rather than giving everyone huge xp penalty ?

I am interested in playing a tiefling at some point, but ecl is really killing any enthusiasm i may have.

If it s about the power, i d rather have a non ecl tiefling template with standard human stats but added ocr.

Kaninchen

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2020, 06:40:34 PM »

To me the ecl as it exists now just makes it more painful to progress and restrict your avenues. Sure there is RP xp but you will be forced to leave vallaki sooner.

If the concern is that the tiefling aasimars should be rare, shouldnt itbe addressed by the application process, rather than giving everyone huge xp penalty ?



I'd say there is nothing wrong with leaving Vallaki sooner, as there are more people, on average, currently. At least from my observations for U.S. timezones.  I'd like to see some of the less visited zones rebalanced for a mid level character to go to adventure/RP at, like Wochter territory, but that's a topic for a different thread.

I'd argue against the idea of a quota for various applications, whether it be ECL races, MPCs, or PrCs, and if they exist behind the curtain, I'd say get rid of them. If the player has to RP for their desired role, being told no because of some number capacity being met seems wrong.

I've not played an ECL race  yet, so I can't really suggest any idea with first hand experience. If there isn't already, I'd make certain for the ECL races not gated with an application are made clear the experience can be unpleasantly slow for newer players.  The idea of having the templates for the models, but not the stats has merit, but the team likes to stick with PnP on such things, I believe.