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Author Topic: On the ECL System  (Read 11308 times)

FellowMan

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On the ECL System
« on: June 16, 2019, 07:30:45 PM »
  A lot has been said about the way the server implements races with nonstandard Effective Character Level (ECL). For those unfamiliar, and just to name the most common examples, the tiefling, aasimar, drow, and tanarukk races count as 2 to 3 levels higher than the standard playable races, for the purposes of gaining experience, and their maximum attainable levels are reduced from the standard 20 by that many levels.

  It has been my experience playing a +2 ECL character over the last few months that the Effective Character Level system reduces the mechanical viability of such characters well in excess of any bonuses their racial perks could conceivably provide, forcing them to engage in content intended for characters multiple levels higher than they are. This heightened difficulty is in addition to PotM's already formidable PvE content, and is often coupled with an OCR level incompatible with, at minimum, Barovia. It's my opinion that the penalties for playing these races are currently too high.

  The current ECL system results in a world where tanarukk can't be counted on to be particularly tough, tieflings aren't really suited for skulking, and aasimar are, at a glance, generally lukewarm at channeling divine magic. This results from each of these races being seen exclusively in the context of content they're simply too low a level for, but which the Experience system impels them to try to struggle through anyway.

  Across my characters I've met a staggering number of low-level ECL characters who are indefinitely shelved almost as soon as they're made, as the players behind them (I assume) switch to more mechanically viable characters. It has been said in the past that the steep penalties for playing ECL races are justified by the relative rarity such races are expected to be found in in the Ravenloft setting. I can agree that the system as it stands has served to make these species scarce, but has achieved it by making them largely unplayable unless they're powerbuilt, and frustrating even so.

  I don't think there need to be so many incentives to not play these races. If anyone feels the same or differently, or has had a different experience than I have, I'd welcome any feedback.

FinalHeaven

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2019, 07:39:59 PM »
Agree 100% with this entire post.  Unfortunately the consensus often seems to be that this is more or less irrelevant, as you take these races for the roleplay opportunity they provide.



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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2019, 08:08:49 PM »
I've had an Aasimar for 20 months, and she is 8th level. In the last year I've played her pretty much only because of trying to support DM plots or because other players contacted me about events they wanted to run, and I tried to help them. Partly this is because I enjoy playing good alignment more than being an antagonist, but it's also because she is very much RP only. I can't recall her ever being in an adventuring party, and the number of dungeon runs she has made solo or with one other PC I could count on one hand.

She currently is powerful enough to be interesting (particularly when under the influence of Voracious), but because of her lack of experience in combat situations, I would doubt I'd use her effectively. (For example, I had to refresh my memory the other day of what one of her two domains does.) Her inventory is a constant mess because of this style of play, too. That is, RP XP is far more time-consuming than dungeoning, and leaves little time for housekeeping.

Obviously, devoting more time to her would help, but I think even she were good aligned so that I enjoyed playing her more, it would just be that much more frustrating to see all this unrealized potential of trying to run a race in leg irons.

As I've seen this subject come up many times and nothing change , I don't think there's a lot of point in commenting or making suggestions. But as the OP asked for personal experience, here you go :D



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Bastard Son

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2019, 08:55:23 PM »
I had a Zenthryi monk, which is an ECL +3 and frankly I shelved him as soon as he hit level 3, I will be the first to admit I do not know how the ECL system works, but it seemed to more take the same experience and time to level from 2 - 3 that an ordinary character would take to level from 6-7.

That Zenthryi is gone, unfortunately he couldn't keep up with his companions and ended up falling behind so significantly that he was mechanically useless. I now play an Aasimar, which is ECL +2 and admittedly, its easier, but my view has been colored by playing a Zenthryi. I concur with FellowMan.
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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2019, 08:57:55 PM »
ECL 3 on a monk sounds like the answer to the question, "What is POTM hard mode?"

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2019, 03:13:06 AM »
When deciding to apply for aasimar, I was fully aware of the mechanical hindrance that the ECL system imposed upon my character. At that time I didn't mind, because Leliel was supposed to be a "break" from my main character. However, I ended up falling in love with her, and while I appreciate the unique roleplay opportunities that ECL races give, even I admit that the penalty such character receives is quite high, for often moderate gain.

Aasimar receive bonuses to their Wisdom, Charisma, as well as some elemental resistance and a Light cantrip, which is most likely going to be used solely as a source of roleplay. I didn't notice any penalties to OCR, but Leliel is a bard, which might be the reason why. Those bonuses plus the free feat humans receive at character creation seems like enough reason to impose a penalty on what otherwise would be a vastly overpowered character, comparing to other races. ECL 2 might not seem like much, comparing to such bonuses, but lets analyze some of the difficulties such characters face: 

  • Only few times I was able to adventure with a group of similarly-leveled characters. Most often I was forced to find more "advanced" group and be a spectator, more than an active participant, which resulted in Leliel becoming a full-support bard, rather than an archer I envisioned her as.
  • The roleplay experience, while invaluable, is not enough to provide a steady, satisfying progression, and ECL characters will not be forced to leave Vallaki area much quicker (around level 12) than regular characters (level 14), which can be hurtful in some cases.
  • Higher OCR, in case of tieflings or drow, which makes an early-stage game extremely difficult.

As a result, such characters are played by more "experienced" players, who thanks to their knowledge, know how to avoid some of those difficulties. Even then it often leads to such character being shelved after some time.

Were I to recreate Leliel, I would most definitely pick an aasimar again. This race provided to be an endless source of roleplay for me, and a way to stay relevant, despite the fact that she is not able to run dungeons as efficiently, as other races. Playing an ECL race is very hard and frustrating, which may be why many people decide not to or shelve the character. I agree that ECL races should be rare, as sudden swarm of tieflings, aasimar and drow in the Outskirts would make little sense. Perhaps by changing the ECL to 1, or taking away the extra feat humans receive at character creations, we could find balance.

I will continue playing Leliel despite the difficulties ECL imposes. I'm not very level-progression oriented, and the unique roleplay experience she provided made me see the server in a completely different light, as the place where you not only run the same dungeons over and over again in order to become mechanically powerful, but also scheme, collect and network to protect yourself. Still, a review of the ECL system would be nice, maybe not as a way to encourage players to pick such races, but rather lessen the burdens of players who decide to enrich the server by playing often very challenging races.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 04:22:12 AM by Kinga »

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2019, 03:49:57 AM »
Speaking upon personal experience with ECL characters, while I was player-side, I played a tiefling character as a main and only PC for an extended period of time.  Managed to make it to level 16 (ECL 18) before closuring the PC due to IC events (prior to the changes to RP XP and post reduced XP in low-level zones).  It is challenging, but some players have a preference for that option both mechanically and thematically.  I thoroughly enjoyed the experience of the PC and wouldn't change any aspect of it (mechanically or otherwise).

There are a multitude of unique and non-ECL races to choose from, if the mechanical difficulty of ECL is a decisive factor in your desired play. Select a race that fits your playstyle and one that you enjoy a character concept which incorporates it and I'd imagine you'll have a rewarding and engaging experience portraying it.

As for the number of characters shelved, ECL vs non-ECL, I don't think we have any definitive data to support that one occurs more frequently over the other.  It happens across the board and for a variety of reasons.  No harm in that, everyone is encouraged to play what they like (as long as it falls within the rules).

PlatointheCave

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2019, 04:18:52 AM »
These are races that ought to be rare. I'm fine with a heavy mechanical burden ensuring that they remain rare by disincentivising playing them.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 04:47:30 AM by PlatointheCave »

FellowMan

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2019, 07:54:09 AM »
Speaking upon personal experience with ECL characters, while I was player-side, I played a tiefling character as a main and only PC for an extended period of time.

This is fair. Though I do have to ask if your  time with that character was improved by the ECL system. It has generally been my experience that I have a good time despite ECL, not because of it.


These are races that ought to be rare. I'm fine with a heavy mechanical burden ensuring that they remain rare by disincentivising playing them.

The same could be said of prestige classes, I think. We have not yet been drowned in Dragon Disciples or Shadowdancers, however, because the Community Council vets them through the application process. Is it unfair for me to ask if you'd be okay with a penalty to prestige classes in the name of keeping them undesirable?

Iridni Ren

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2019, 08:43:01 AM »
Haha. I doubt anyone would say the ECL improves the experience, so that's kind of a loaded question. But I think the second part of your post is fair. The application process should be the gatekeeper of making sure these races are played only as characters likely to enhance RP and setting.

ECL should be viewed only in terms of balance as it is designed to be. Relying on it to limit the number of players who attempt these races is akin to the highway department saying, "We don't want too many people driving on this road, so let's make a bunch of pot holes in it." :)

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2019, 10:21:51 AM »

These are races that ought to be rare. I'm fine with a heavy mechanical burden ensuring that they remain rare by disincentivising playing them.

The same could be said of prestige classes, I think. We have not yet been drowned in Dragon Disciples or Shadowdancers, however, because the Community Council vets them through the application process. Is it unfair for me to ask if you'd be okay with a penalty to prestige classes in the name of keeping them undesirable?

Where this gets quite murky is the work required.  An application for an ECL race takes but a short time to type up, edit, submit, and wait for a response on.  A PRC requires vetted roleplay over a long period of time showing in game development of the character towards the class, the development of the character in their roleplay in general and the change the PRC brings, a mentor in most cases, and DM interaction in plenty of others.  It then requires an application to then be approved on top of that.

Keep in mind, applications won't be 'artificially' declined, simply because of numbers or anything like that in play because that is simply not fair.  Thus, the very influx warned about 'can' happen unless the DM's and CC's arbitrarily start declining applications, and for any number of reasons thats a terrible idea and they almost certainly won't do that.  It makes things tricky in this regard as a result.

Iridni Ren

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2019, 10:48:53 AM »
Although there may be differences in practice between the two (including the amount of work required and how critically each is evaluated), the reasons for having an application process are presumably similar. Therefore, if ECL races are treated more casually, then the implication is they are less restricted than PrCs. That a player chose a less restricted option does not justify punishing the player mechanically.

ECL is a tool for balancing the power of characters, not for managing the server's relative population of characters. If these characters don't belong in the setting, then they should not be allowed. If they do enhance the setting, then let's keep them. If the population needs to be kept at a certain proportion, then that's a fair consideration when deciding to approve or reject an application IMO, such as telling a player, "We currently have an over-abundance of Aasimars. Please try again at a later date." Or even "You have previously played an Aasimar, and the CC feels because of the popularity of this race, it would be better to approve an application of another player who has not yet experienced it."

Might make the individual player unhappy, but it's a legitimate rationale.

Being told that ECL is used to discourage players from playing these races is essentially saying, however, "We concede you're getting the short-end of the stick here, but we don't really think Aasimars belong in the setting, so we're going to punish you for your choice." If the ECL burden were not disproportionate to what is granted these races, this other argument wouldn't need to be resorted to.

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FellowMan

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2019, 10:53:25 AM »
Keep in mind, applications won't be 'artificially' declined, simply because of numbers or anything like that in play because that is simply not fair.  Thus, the very influx warned about 'can' happen unless the DM's and CC's arbitrarily start declining applications, and for any number of reasons thats a terrible idea and they almost certainly won't do that. 

I appreciate the response and agree that artificial bottlenecking is a bad thing. Though, we are technically at risk of being overrun by weaponmasters or pale masters at any given time, as these classes are very strong and often mechanically superior to similar builds. Neither of those classes are over-represented, however. I assume the RP that goes into getting approved is a definite factor, but I also believe we don't see that many of them because not everyone wants to play them. Many (indeed most) characters who could be eligible for either of those classes do not pursue them, because that's not the flavor of roleplay the players want to indulge in.

I would expect that even if the mechanics didn't stifle ECL races, we still wouldn't be overrun with tieflings or aasimar for the same reason.

Ken14

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2019, 11:06:15 AM »
Just a thought: Instead of lessening the ECL's impact, why not change how the impact works?


The issue I'm hearing is that you can't properly fight anything at the level you're supposed to, because you don't get XP from them, and need to tackle things waaay outside your weightclass to do get some.


So, why not make it so that the ELC decides how much XP you need for the next level? For example, a +2 ELC character would need 9000 XP to get to lvl 3, instead of the traditional 2000. And so on.

They'd still be able to do dungeons appropriate to their level, but it would take them a LOT more time to get there.

...Unless, of course, this is already part of the current ECL system?

FellowMan

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2019, 12:43:16 PM »
As I understand it, under the current system, you count as, for example two levels higher than you actually are for the purposes of gaining experience. To get from level 2 to level 3, an aasimar has to gain as much experience as a human would to get from level 4 to level 5, and level 2 enemies will be as unrewarding for the aasimar as for the human.

Other people have proposed alternative systems in the past, though, some of which seemed quite valid. Rather than field ideas for how to change the system, I'd rather this thread be strictly for feedback on the ECL system. So stop all that book-thinkin'.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 12:44:53 PM by FellowMan »

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2019, 01:17:13 PM »

I've played two ECL subraces over the years: Tanarukk and Mul.   

The tanarukk is still a character that I have fun playing, after many years, but a big part of my original fun and success with developing the character was that the character was part of a group concept: The Black Leaf Tribe.  So we had a few tanarukk, along with tieflings, drow, and other outcasts banded together for both Drain role play and PvM.  Most of us had a good grasp of the module, and so while levelling with the ECL 3 was a challenge, we enjoyed the team work and the taking on of challenges well beyond our level range.  We had a core group of ECL 2 and ECL 3 characters make it into the high level range, while having fun doing it, but I do appreciate and understand just how challenging outcast role play and the ECL can be.

Had I not had that group concept in place from the start, I may have done what the majority of players do eventually, and that is to shelve the character.  That group effort was a tremendous advantage to developing my character's personality and traits, just as much as it was a benefit to levelling.

My Mul was also a part of a group concept with the Red Blood Mountain Tribe, which was the first tanarukk tribe led by Rudd and Skrudd, with my Mul being a slave. So once again, it was having a group already in place that made the difference.

My biggest challenge today with my tanarukk is that my favorite, and I think the most appropriate setting for her, no longer provides any rp xp: The Drain.  Some high level outcasts might be content with the Mist Camp hub, or they might fit in well enough in the Port's Black Market, but for a rowdy tanarukk, the Drain still feels like the best fit. 

If I were to ever roll up another ECL 2 or 3 character, I'd wait for a NCE and hopefully have a group effort in place to get the ball rolling.  That momentum can carry you far.

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2019, 02:01:46 PM »
I am personally in favor of the ECL system. While it certainly makes the process more difficult and at times more frustrating, it is a challenge that I welcome. Much has been said already about the need or lack thereof to control the prevalence of these ECL sub races, but less has been said about the need to control their relative power. I play a Drow and if there was not an ECL system in place, he would have a mechanical advantage over every non-ECL race on the server. So unless we want a Barovia dominated by powerful Drows, Tieflings, Aisamars, etc. then I think we would agree there needs to be some type of ECL system in place. The ECL 2 has been tough, particularly for a character who is primarily a loner (I haven't played an ECL 3 but I can only imagine its brutal), but I'm not sure anything less than that would make sense. ECL 1 would put my Drow at what I would consider to be "balanced" or maybe even still slightly overpowered in comparison to a human. In most settings this would not really be an issue, but in Barovia I would argue that it is. This is a realm where Foreign Gods have little power, outlanders are treated as second-class (sometimes third-class) citizens and ruled over with an iron fist. Its hard for the locals to intimidate and heckle these foreigners if some of those races are noticeably superior to their own.

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2019, 02:54:54 PM »
Being told that ECL is used to discourage players from playing these races is essentially saying, however, "We concede you're getting the short-end of the stick here, but we don't really think Aasimars belong in the setting, so we're going to punish you for your choice." If the ECL burden were not disproportionate to what is granted these races, this other argument wouldn't need to be resorted to.

It's a bit much to call it a punishment when you knew what you were signing up for.

But you've convinced me: ECL races should be banned.
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FellowMan

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2019, 03:04:06 PM »
Much has been said already about the need or lack thereof to control the prevalence of these ECL sub races, but less has been said about the need to control their relative power.

I'm of the opinion that the ECL races as they stand aren't considerably more powerful than non-application races freely available for play. I can supply an example.

The stats for these races as featured in PotM aren't readily found anywhere, so I can't know exactly what a drow on PotM has. Just going by the SRD, I'll assume your drow has +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha, and -2 Con, typical elf sleep immunity and Enchantment save boosts, Darkvision, possibly spell resistance, a +2 to various perception checks,+2 to Will saves against spells, and a daily cast of Darkness.

These are very good stats. Consider the Chaos Gnome, however. A chaos gnome on PotM has +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha, and -2 Str. It enjoys the typical gnome AB bonuses against goblinoids and reptilians, as well as the +4 AC against Giant enemies. It has low-light vision, +2 Listen, improved saves against Illusion magic, Spell Focus: Illusion added as a bonus feat, immunity to Confusion effects, and a daily cast of Entropic Shield.

I would expect the chaos gnome to outperform in the drow in stealth (the "Small" size category giving it a +4 Hide and +4 Move Silent) and in sorcery (having a coveted Spell Focus feat right off the bat), where the Drow's bonus INT will make it the better wizard, and I wouldn't think either race is particularly tailored to much else. This is all before factoring in the Drow's ECL handicap, which forces us to consider a level 2 Drow and a level 5 Chaos Gnome to be, by the EXP system, a fair match for one another. I don't think such a match-up is even a contest, myself.

It's a bit much to call it a punishment when you knew what you were signing up for.

I think it's fair to call it (as currently implemented) a punishment of players who are drawn to any given ECL race as a medium for the character they have in mind--that is, the ones who are going to stick with it anyway, despite the setback.

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2019, 03:08:30 PM »
I think it's fair to call it (as currently implemented) a punishment of players who are drawn to any given ECL race as a medium for the character they have in mind--that is, the ones who are going to stick with it anyway, despite the setback.

If it's a choice between having the ECL mechanic be presented as a "punishment" or doing away with them altogether, I say let's just get rid of them, they're a broken mechanic in the first place. Drow can be statted as elves, tanarruk as half-orcs, etc. No longer an issue.
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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2019, 03:12:25 PM »
I am of the opinion that they never should take from your max level attainable.

If the team is so afraid of them being overpowered being able to reach level 20 then they should either increase ECL across the board, or somehow hamper XP gain for them further.

But at least you'd be able to reach level 20 again.

Also the "punishment" thing is perhaps one of the funniest things I've read in a while. Sure it may feel torturous, but you knew what you signed up for.
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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2019, 03:36:46 PM »
Also the "punishment" thing is perhaps one of the funniest things I've read in a while. Sure it may feel torturous, but you knew what you signed up for.

First of all, you don't know what it's like until you play one, so it's not precisely true to say you know what you signed up for. I've seen, for example, you complain about prestige classes being underpowered.

Weaponmaster: https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=50761.msg620006#msg620006

Monster Hunter: https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=49477.msg607421#msg607421

As well as the non-PrC Sorcerer: https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=50620.msg618664#msg618664

Those who play WMs, MHs, and Sorcs "know what they signed up for" probably more so than does someone who has never experienced ECL, because the XP system here is pretty opaque, whereas the complaints you lodged in each of those threads address much more transparent mechanics.

As for the choice of the word, I was responding to this:

Quote
I'm fine with a heavy mechanical burden ensuring that they remain rare by disincentivising playing them.

"A heavy mechanical burden to ensure players are disincentivised from playing them" sounds like a less concise way of saying "punishment" to me, but YMMV :)

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2019, 03:45:18 PM »
If it's a choice between having the ECL mechanic be presented as a "punishment" or doing away with them altogether, I say let's just get rid of them, they're a broken mechanic in the first place. Drow can be statted as elves, tanarruk as half-orcs, etc. No longer an issue.


Also the "punishment" thing is perhaps one of the funniest things I've read in a while. Sure it may feel torturous, but you knew what you signed up for.

The verbiage of "punishment" arose as Iridni's casual assessment of how the system feels from a design perspective summary of Plato's post. I'll contest that it's accurate from a "this mechanic punishes this playstyle" angle (in the way that EXP penalties at >5 players "punishes" us for zerging dungeons with 15 players), but I'm not gonna die on the hill of that exact word.

I also like the idea of not having to resign an ECL character to being--at their theoretical best--universally inferior to normal characters, ie the lower class level cap. If not for that, the issues that I and others have voiced in this thread would all be resolvable with commitment to the character in question, which would be nice. Though I'm breaking my own "let's not talk about alternatives" thing.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 03:46:58 PM by FellowMan »

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2019, 03:45:53 PM »
I don't think it's so much about the concept of "being punished", but more so that the ECL system is potentially flawed, and could be re-evaluated. There isn't any merit in the "You know what you signed up for argument", as it doesn't begin to look at why the ECL system could be fixed.

To address the original intent of the thread, I think that there's a lot of options available to see whether or not ECL could be modified, as opposed to the extremes of "throw it out", and "do nothing at all". Much like what Fellow mentioned with the Chaos Gnome, there is precedent for statistically advantaged characters having low to no ECL at all. I don't think it's out of the question to reduce the ECL on races that suffer from atrocious disadvantages, without making it easy.

I personally don't believe that debuffs to XP gain and lower level ceilings contribute to the roleplay or progression of these races' characters, any more than the other arbitrarily mystified experience progression systems already on the server.


herkles

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Re: On the ECL System
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2019, 03:47:43 PM »
Whats wrong with removing the ECL on these races but still requiring an application?