Author Topic: Wildshape Feedback  (Read 1491 times)

Ken14

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Wildshape Feedback
« on: June 16, 2019, 02:37:22 PM »
First of all, I would like to thank the Dev team for the recent feats concerning druids. The increased variation in animal shapes to take has been a blessing.

However, despite that, there are some things that I feel should be adressed.

Not the arguement that only one animal shape from each feat is actually any good in combat. Frankly, that makes sense, or the feat would be too OP. The Original wildshape is also similar to that : Only the Bear is good in combat, the rest are subpar  in comparison, but that's okay, they're great RP tools. Moving on!


I feel like wildshapes should have skill penalties and advantages, if they don't already. The larger dire animals should have penalties to Hide and Move Silently, and viceversa. In addition to whatever bonuses/penalties they get from their size. Mostly because the idea of say, a sneaking Dire Polar Bear being...difficult to fathom.


Also something I've heard voiced by other druid players : they were rather hoping that the wildshapes would have had more special abilities ( as far as I know, only the snake has a poison ability), instead of differing stat blocks and damage ranges. For example, that Winter Wolves would have some form of ice breath ability.


However, there is one big thing I noticed. The Dire Polar Bear and Dire Crocodile are both potent combat shapes. They're also eerily similar in way of physical stats:

Dire Crocodile : Str 37, Dex 10, Con 25
Dire Polar Bear : Str 39, Dex 11, Con 23


However, their damage ranges aren't.

A Dire Polar Bear has two possible attacks of 2d6+STR and one of 3d8+STR.

The Dire crocodile has a whopping extra die, with two attacks of 3d6+STR and one of 4d8+STR.

To put this in perspective, the penultimate shapeshifting, Elemental Shape, tends to have, at most, 2d10+STR.


In short: Unless I'm missing some sort of hidden mechanic, the Dire Crocodile is essentially superior in every fashion, With the exception of the Polar bear having 1 extra AB.. The idea of a Dire Crocodile being more hearthy then a Dire Polar Bear seems.....off. But I understand. These are the PNP stats for both creatures.

Still, as a player that uses the Dire Crococile shape, I'm of the opinion that it's...really powerful. Perhaps too powerful. And maybe just a bit too similar to the Dire Polar Bear?

Off the top of my head: Maybe the Dire Crocodile should be unlocked a bit later down the lane. Perhaps at lvl 14 Or 15?

Another suggestion could be to make the Dire Crocodile a seperate feat unlocked with more stringest requirements?

In place, another animal that could take it's place:

The Dire Rhinoceros ( https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dire_Rhinoceros_(3.5e_Monster) ) : This one is interesting, due to the fact that it would need to have enormous spot penalties, due to the terrible eyesight Rhinoceros have. Giving it abilities similar to Charger or Stomp would also be neat. The fact that it has DR and slightly better Dex makes it more tank-based than the Polar Bear shape.


Giant Scorpion ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm) : This honestly seems like the better pick, because scorpions are rather well-known amongst us. The Terror of Scorpions from Har'akir!  The Huge version could be the regular shape, And the Colossal version the dire version.

Changes needed for the server, though:
-The CON should be raised to 22 on the Dire version.
-The DC for the Poison should be lowered a level each. 33 DC is possibly too strong?
-Instead of tremorsense, make it perma-truesight ( not the original version) + an additional Spot bonus.



EO

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Re: Wildshape Feedback
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2019, 04:37:06 PM »
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I feel like wildshapes should have skill penalties and advantages, if they don't already. The larger dire animals should have penalties to Hide and Move Silently, and viceversa. In addition to whatever bonuses/penalties they get from their size. Mostly because the idea of say, a sneaking Dire Polar Bear being...difficult to fathom.

Also something I've heard voiced by other druid players : they were rather hoping that the wildshapes would have had more special abilities ( as far as I know, only the snake has a poison ability), instead of differing stat blocks and damage ranges. For example, that Winter Wolves would have some form of ice breath ability.

That's not how Wild Shape works though. You can find more information on Wild Shape here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape

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The Dire Rhinoceros ( https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dire_Rhinoceros_(3.5e_Monster) ) : This one is interesting, due to the fact that it would need to have enormous spot penalties, due to the terrible eyesight Rhinoceros have. Giving it abilities similar to Charger or Stomp would also be neat. The fact that it has DR and slightly better Dex makes it more tank-based than the Polar Bear shape.

The Dire Rhinoceros is actually an arctic animal in DnD (it comes from Frostburn). I strongly advise you don't use sources like dnd-wiki or DanDWiki since those are mostly fanon mixed with canon.

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Giant Scorpion ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm) : This honestly seems like the better pick, because scorpions are rather well-known amongst us. The Terror of Scorpions from Har'akir!  The Huge version could be the regular shape, And the Colossal version the dire version.

Scorpions, like spiders, are not animals but vermin so Wild Shape wouldn't work with that.

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A Dire Polar Bear has two possible attacks of 2d6+STR and one of 3d8+STR.

The Dire crocodile has a whopping extra die, with two attacks of 3d6+STR and one of 4d8+STR.

To put this in perspective, the penultimate shapeshifting, Elemental Shape, tends to have, at most, 2d10+STR.

I'm not too concerned with Elemental Shape balance since you need to invest feats to get the Polar Bear/Crocodile but don't need any for Elemental Shape. The Dire Crocodile could be toned down a little for sure but I'm not too concerned about balance between these forms. In any case any rebalance would have to wait for a hak update.

Ken14

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Re: Wildshape Feedback
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2019, 05:28:07 PM »
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That's not how Wild Shape works though. You can find more information on Wild Shape here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape

Okay, admittedly, I did not know that magical abilities aren't carried over. However, you DO gain the extraordinary special attacks of it's new form, which is something that could've maybe been implemented? I'm not entirely sure how feasible it is to like, make an emulation of the Improved Grab ability of a Dire Polar Bear.


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The Dire Rhinoceros is actually an arctic animal in DnD (it comes from Frostburn). I strongly advise you don't use sources like dnd-wiki or DanDWiki since those are mostly fanon mixed with canon.


I did notice this but I figure the frostburn version wasn't being used, due to the fact that Rhinoceros spawn in Har'akir. Fair enough, though.


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Scorpions, like spiders, are not animals but vermin so Wild Shape wouldn't work with that.

Dang. That's true. Still! Might be an interesting 'corrupted'wildshape option for say,  any Blight-based prestige class? The odds are fairly low, I'll admit. 


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I'm not too concerned with Elemental Shape balance since you need to invest feats to get the Polar Bear/Crocodile but don't need any for Elemental Shape. The Dire Crocodile could be toned down a little for sure but I'm not too concerned about balance between these forms. In any case any rebalance would have to wait for a hak update.

You're quite right that the balance isn't really the issue here. What I was trying to offer critique on is the similarity between the Dire Polar Bear and the Dire Crocodile.


Both are really similar, statwise. They have the near-exact same advantages and disadvantages. The only difference being that one is a bear and the other is a crocodile. Maybe that's enough difference to make it A-okay, but that just seems redundant to me.


Toning the crocodile down is a certainly an option, though. The easiest option, really. I'd suggest not nerfing it's damage, however, as that does make the creature a bit unique, right now. Maybe lower the Constitution to 20?

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Re: Wildshape Feedback
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2019, 05:48:01 PM »
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Toning the crocodile down is a certainly an option, though. The easiest option, really. I'd suggest not nerfing it's damage, however, as that does make the creature a bit unique, right now. Maybe lower the Constitution to 20?

That'd make sense. I'd bring it to 21.

noah25

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Re: Wildshape Feedback
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2019, 09:39:30 PM »
I think arguing that the dire crocodile is superior to elemental shape is also silly. Especially for a 20th level druid with elder forms.

1) you get sneak and crit immune
2) higher ac
3) Using elemental shape doesn't take away from feat charge uses.
4) Damage reduction
To put it in perspective my druid doesn't even have this shape as I feel while they are unique and great for rp, there are better uses for a druids feats.