Author Topic: Augment Healing & Circle Healing  (Read 468 times)

Hypatia

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Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« on: April 13, 2019, 06:24:26 PM »
Augment Healing doesn’t seem to be affecting “Circle Healing II”

Hypatia is a 10th level cleric with the healing domain. I used Sacrid Boost so it’s empowered and maximized. Gave back 39hp, but as a 5th level spell at 2d12+15+10(augment) it should be 49 back.

Circle Healing is a “cure” spell from the conjuration school. Augment should work on it I think.

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2019, 07:34:33 PM »
Does it work for Heal, Healing Circle I and other spells?

Hypatia

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2019, 09:21:26 PM »
it works for the normal cure spells so far.. ill test the others when I can... so far I haven't had a chance.


Hypatia

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2019, 10:08:57 PM »
Just tested.  Works for all the Cure spells, and Heal.  Doesn't work on Healing Circle 1 or 2, which are the only ones I have. I didn't test CMW since I get CSW at the same level with the healing domain, but I assume it works? I can test later.

Level 10 with healing domain and maximized cure with sacrid boost

working:
CLW: 22hp
CSW: 60hp (for the level 2 & 3 versions)
CCW: 75hp
Heal: 112 (level 5 version, I don't have level 6 yet)

not working:
Circle 1: 27hp (1d12+15, but no +8 augment)
Circle 2: 39hp (2d12+15, but no +10 augment)



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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2019, 11:22:44 AM »
I found the cause and will fix it for the next update. Essentially it's only broken when you Maximize Healing Circle, otherwise it works.

Hypatia

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2019, 11:28:30 AM »
Great thanks!

Also, those augment bonuses are actually +12 and +15 respectively because of empowerment. I did the numbers wrong on them above for circle healing.

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2019, 05:54:43 PM »
Empower should really only apply to the die rolls, not the bonuses as well. I don't know if that's possible, but consider this:

Maximized cure light restores 8+5, for thirteen HP and a 4th level spell slot.
Empowered cure light restores (4.5+5)*1.5  for an average of 14 HP and it's a level lower slot. The same pattern continues with the other curing spells, and with spells like Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace.

Empower and maximize are far more in line with damage spells that have no mods, where a maximized fireball for a hypothetical 10th level caster is a flat 60 damage while average empowered is 52.5. One can make the argument that the price you pay for the lower spell level is reliability, but it's still a little troublesome that a lower circle of spell is statistically better than a higher one.

Augment Healing should certainly not be multiplied by this fact, as that tilts things even more: Maximized Cure Serious, as an example, is 40 HP for a 10th level non-healing cleric (I'm not using healing domain clerics because they autoempower). Contrast that with empowered, which restores an average of 44.25, or a range from 28.5 to 60. If you weren't multiplying the modifier, you'd get a more reasonable 36.25 vs 40 for empowered vs maximized.
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Hypatia

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2019, 06:18:13 PM »
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Empower_spell

That's not what the wiki says. Look at the example of magic missiles displayed there (1d4 + 1 x 1.5). The numeric value is calculated and than the sum is multiplied by x 1.5. For example, Cure Serious wounds at level 10 with Augment works like this:
3d8 + 10 + 6 x 1.5 = hp gain.

In the notes is says the following: Empowerment takes place after rolls are modified by non-variable effects. For example, an empowered ray of frost does (1d4 + 1) × 1.5 damage. That is, rolling a 3 gives (3+1)×1.5 = 6 damage, not 3×1.5 = 4.5, truncated to 4, plus 1 for 5 damage.

Please don't try to nerf this.  Healing in NWN is already weak enough... that's why EVERYONE plays buffing battle clerics instead of healers. Even if you were correct about the forumla and the wiki was wrong, I'd prefer to keep healing capabilities that can actually make a difference in combat, thank you.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 06:23:16 PM by Hypatia »

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2019, 07:08:32 PM »
I know how NWN does it by default, I'm arguing that empowering spells with mods are better than maximize, and it shouldn't be since empowering takes a lower spell slot. I've used healing spells as an example because they're plentiful, but this would also affect buffing (bulls, cats, where empower's average would go from 5.25 to 4.75) and damage spells like magic missile (9th level caster's MM goes from 26.25 to 23.75). Currently, the maximize values for each of those spells are 5 and 25 respectively.

The central issue isn't that I think this particular set of spells is overpowered, I'm arguing that the metamagic of empower is currently better than maximize, and costs less. I enjoy having healing clerics, and I've played one for a long time. The point isn't to nerf healing, the point is to fix empower and maximize.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 07:10:47 PM by TheFury »
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2019, 10:27:41 PM »
My understanding is Empower rounds down. I also believe from experience that is the case, as I've never seen my PC gain more than 7 from an empowered Bull Strength.

Assuming so, the effect is the following:

Roll 1 + 1 = 2 x 1.5 = 3
Roll 2 + 1 = 3 x 1.5 = 4.5 = 4
Roll 3 + 1 = 4 x 1.5 = 6
Roll 4 + 1 = 5 x 1.5 = 7.5 = 7

(3+4+6+7) / 4 = 5

The expected value, then, from empower = the same as maximize. But with maximize you have certainty, whereas with empower it's a risk.

Let's assume for a moment that Empower is slightly better than Maximize because of all factors (including the elevated spell slot). That is not a good reason in and of itself to nerf Empower because PCs can make that choice for themselves. Nothing stops any PC from looking at the two, deciding Empower is better, and taking Empower.

The net effect, then, of making a feat weaker is to make the PCs using it weaker. So the feat needs to be looked at in view of overall balance. Otherwise, we could always find a weak feat and drive every other feat to the lowest common denominator. Perhaps Maximize Spell isn't as strong as it should be :D

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2019, 10:30:46 PM »
The balance aspect of Empower Spell is not related to the bug though. As for the balance issue, from what I can see, there's a clear discrepancy in NwN in how Empower Spell is applied; for some spells it's applied before the non-variant modifiers are taken into account, for other spells after. I'll need to review the spells more closely but logically, if we go by the feat's description, non-variant modifiers shouldn't be empowered.

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2019, 01:22:47 PM »
Player's handbook says:

Quote
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. For example, an empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1-1/2 for each missile). Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.


The damage is the variable numerical effect. The number of rounds it lasts is not. For example Magic Missile, as stated in the example, deals a random amount of damage, but the number of missiles you conjure is NOT variable, it is set, depending on your caster level. That's why while empower spell multiplies the damage each missile deals by 1x5, it does not multiply the number of missiles cast by 1.5.

The multiplier is applied after damage calculation. The reason is because it’s not the 1d4 that is the random variable, it’s the damage that is random. I.e. it doesn’t deal 1d4+1, it deals 2-5 damage; that’s why it’s specifically made as an example that way in the actual text body of the feat. Any spell that has a random numerical value; I.e., it does a random number of damage or healing; it is the end result that is considered a “variable numeric value” and is multiplied by x1.5. The damage or amount healing is random as opposed to spells that always do the same, such as “Heal”

If you just multipied the 1d4, it would violate the text of the feat where it specifically says: An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate.

Empowered Cure Light Wounds w/ augment healing at level 10 therefore is 8-15 x 1.5, NOT 1d8 x 1.5 +5+2 Because if that was the case, it would not cure half again as much damage. It would only cure 30% more. That's not what the feat's description says.

If NWN is doing this different on some spells, then it’s not following its own rules that it gives in the feat's description and I guess its those spells that ought to be looked at for balance issues. But for cure spells, its doing it right. For balance purposes, this makes sense unless all you want is buffing casters and AC builds. Blasting wizards have to be able to make a dent, and healing clerics have to be able to make a difference to make them fun to play.

I can agree that empowered gives you a better "average" result than maximize does, but that was probably just the people at WofC not thinking it through all the way. If anything, maximized should be reduced down 1 caster level as the two are really pretty equal in power; its just one is for the gambler, and the other is for the one who likes to play it safe.

The Healing Domain is powerful, but it needs to be to make a Healer cleric even remotely viable compared to a combat/buffing cleric. Even with all these super perks to cure spells, there still aren't a lot of people who play dedicated healers because for the most part, they don't need the healing; they just buff.  Having a dedicated healer lets groups bite off more than they could normally chew, and when it IS needed, its REALLY needed bad; little wimpy cure spells just don't cut it when you're fighting monsters who can dish out real damage against the huge ACs we see on PotM. Because consider, when the type of monster that can actually hurt our super AC tank builds gets to the squishy support characters in the back, they are going to need a lot of HP really fast in order to survive. Those are the moments when playing a dedicated healer is amazing. But I need the tools!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 02:19:41 PM by Hypatia »

Hypatia

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2019, 02:16:56 PM »
oops

Iridni Ren

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2019, 03:07:03 PM »
I'll need to review the spells more closely but logically, if we go by the feat's description, non-variant modifiers shouldn't be empowered.

I agree with this...regarding modifiers, but the reason I do is not legalistic but for balance reasons :) That is, if wording is ambiguous at all, it's preferable to err on the side of balance than be literalists.

The base of 2 to 5, however, to my mind isn't really a modifier plus a die roll, but the base damage of the spell (as Hypatia argues). The spell is just designed to have a variable amount of damage (or variable buff) in the range 2 to 5 rather than, say, 1 to 6.

If constant values added by feats or other modifiers were multiplied, however, in my opinion it would go against the feat's intent as well as make it overpowered. Although Hypatia discusses this only in terms of healing allies, these spells can be very powerful offensively against undead enemies as well.


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Hypatia

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2019, 07:44:24 PM »
If that’s the case, why does the feat specifically put the multiplier for “magic missle” as being adjusted after the damage is caluculated. They literally show you the formula in the feats description. I’ve searched multiple forums and I don’t see anyone saying that the multiplier is applied before modifiers. What’s more, the feat was included in vanilla NWN2 and also applied the multiplier after modifiers were added. If says right there as plain as can be that cure spells do HALF again as much curing and damage spells do HALF again as much damage, what is ambiguous about this language? Wether I’m talking about healing or damage the feat description seems to settle it. The only ambiguous part is that it doesn’t define wether the “numeric variable” is the the die roll before the mod or after, however this ambiguity is cleared up immediately when it gives the magic missile example followed by telling you the feat increases damage (or curing) by half again, or x1.5.

Edit: Correction, not even the following is ambiguous: All variable, numeric "effects" of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
Notice the wording. Variable, numeric EFFECTS of an empowered spell.  1d4 is not the variable numeric EFFECT of the spell, its just a variable part of the calculation. These are apples and oranges. It is the damage itself that is EFFECT of the spell.

In a Magic Missiles spell, the damage is a variable effect. the number of missiles is a non-variable effect. So the damage is multiplied by 1.5 (or half again) but the number of missiles is not.
In a Healing Circle, the HP cured is a variable effect, the size of the area of effect is a non-variable effect. So the Curing is multiplied by 1.5 (or half again) but the area of effect is not.

This isn't ambiguous. If you lessen it, you'd just be nerfing it for balance, but the language is clear if you read it carefully. If its balance you're after, I really don't think healing clerics are breaking anything. Any wizard can pump out as much or more damage, and any cleric who buffs and augments himself for battle can kill way more unded than my Healer. Cure spells, esspecially Healing Circle, are great for undead, but if im using them for that, I can't really buff myself and my group to the nines so i still have to get close enough to touch them. Anyone whose ever traveled with Hypatia can tell you she is anything but overpowerd.

edit edit:
Quote
If constant values added by feats or other modifiers were multiplied, however, in my opinion it would go against the feat's intent as well as make it overpowered.
How can it make it against the feat's intend to make it do exactly what it says it does in the description... add half again as much of whatever variable effect it does, be it damage, curing or number of targets. Wouldn't making it add 50% to the said effect do exactly what the feat's intent suggests? As for being overpowered, that's up to devs I suppose, but personally I think compared to some of the ACs people reach here and the fact that almost everyone has easy access to almost every "cure" a cleric can provide, Hypatia's healing needs o be particularly powerful to even be relevant. You can be a vastly more powerful character just by focusing on buffing and combat.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 08:20:02 PM by Hypatia »

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2019, 08:14:39 PM »
Am I missing something, or is this easily explained by the fact that the feat says "innate" spell level? So, empowering/maximizing it does not add more healing from the feat, because that is not the innate spell level.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2019, 08:24:47 PM »
Spoiler: show
If that’s the case, why does the feat specifically put the multiplier for “magic missle” as being adjusted after the damage is caluculated. They literally show you the formula in the feats description. I’ve searched multiple forums and I don’t see anyone saying that the multiplier is applied before modifiers. What’s more, the feat was included in vanilla NWN2 and also applied the multiplier after modifiers were added. If says right there as plain as can be that cure spells do HALF again as much curing and damage spells do HALF again as much damage, what is ambiguous about this language? Wether I’m talking about healing or damage the feat description seems to settle it. The only ambiguous part is that it doesn’t define wether the “numeric variable” is the the die roll before the mod or after, however this ambiguity is cleared up immediately when it gives the magic missile example followed by telling you the feat increases damage (or curing) by half again, or x1.5.

Edit: Correction, not even the following is ambiguous: All variable, numeric "effects" of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
Notice the wording. Variable, numeric EFFECTS of an empowered spell.  1d4 is not the variable numeric EFFECT of the spell, its just a variable part of the calculation. These are apples and oranges. It is the damage itself that is EFFECT of the spell.

In a Magic Missiles spell, the damage is a variable effect. the number of missiles is a non-variable effect. So the damage is multiplied by 1.5 (or half again) but the number of missiles is not.
In a Healing Circle, the HP cured is a variable effect, the size of the area of effect is a non-variable effect. So the Curing is multiplied by 1.5 (or half again) but the area of effect is not.

This isn't ambiguous. If you lessen it, you'd just be nerfing it for balance, but the language is clear if you read it carefully. If its balance you're after, I really don't think healing clerics are breaking anything. Any wizard can pump out as much or more damage, and any cleric who buffs and augments himself for battle can kill way more unded than my Healer. Cure spells, esspecially Healing Circle, are great for undead, but if im using them for that, I can't really buff myself and my group to the nines so i still have to get close enough to touch them. Anyone whose ever traveled with Hypatia can tell you she is anything but overpowerd.

It's intended in the base game.

Empower Spell is meant to multiply the final sum of numeric variable effects by x1.5. Some can argue it's only meant to be the dice, and with rounding it may as well be equivalent as is the case of the animal buffs but, it's the intent that it multiplied the sum of the final value provided that spell had a variable numeric effect within it.

The way it's calculated is as written in NWN as well as the player handbook, which both list the math for an empowered magic missile as an example.

In short dw about Empower Spell, it was written and implemented as intended.

Source here - http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/empower-spell--848/index.html where it specifically says multiply the result.

It may be that spells added in later expansions only multiplied the dice result before adding modifiers like caster level or flat damage bonuses - those are incorrect. They'd need to be adjusted to multiply the result of the dice+modifiers by 50%.

Whether Augment Healing as an additional boost for the healing spell is considered part of the spell (and should be empowered) or some kind of aftereffect bonus (and shouldn't) would be up to whoever designed Augment Healing to decide.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 08:48:14 PM by zDark Shadowz »
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Hypatia

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2019, 08:37:47 PM »
Am I missing something, or is this easily explained by the fact that the feat says "innate" spell level? So, empowering/maximizing it does not add more healing from the feat, because that is not the innate spell level.

The reason it matters is because a CLW spell's innate spell level is 1. Augment gives back an extra 2hp therefore. However when Empowered, that 2 becomes 3 once the HP restored is multiplied by 1.5.

If we do what Iridini suggests, the formula for a maximized, empowered CLW spell cast by a level 5 cleric looks like this: 8 x 1.5 + 5 + 2 = 19. (A 30% increae in HP cured)
Howver if we do what the feat's deecription and provided formula say, it looks like this: 8 + 5 + 2 x 1.5 = 22 (a 50% increase in HP cured, as per the description in the feat)

At the high end, with Cure Critical wounds, Empowerment and Augment together and then maximized with Sacred Boost add up to 75hp back, but it still lands well below the "Heal" spell which even at its minimum at level 9 (if you have the healing domain) gives 90hp back. So is 75 one level earlier than 90 at the next level really out of balance or broken?

If you took a feat that claimed you got a 50% increase to your strength, but then you only got a 30% increase, you'd probably think there was a problem with the description.

Normal CCW by a 10th level cleric gives a max of 50 with augment (42 without). However the Healing Domain version gives back 75 (or 63 w/o) or in other words... half again more. I don't see that as broken or out of balance. If Healing clerics were anywhere near as powerful as AC tanks or battle clerics, I wouldn't be among the only focused healers on the server... even with Hypatia's good ability to smite undead with cures.

Pretty please don't nerf my heals. my precious heals.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 08:46:33 PM by Hypatia »

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2019, 08:55:45 PM »
The reason it matters is because a CLW spell's innate spell level is 1. Augment gives back an extra 2hp therefore. However when Empowered, that 2 becomes 3 once the HP restored is multiplied by 1.5.

No, because empower only increases the *variable* part, not any static modifies (i.e. only the rolled part is empowered).

ETA: Per zDark Shadowz post above, I guess that may not be the case.

But, the wording of the Augment Healing feat still says innate level. So, empowering should not matter. You are empowering the spell, not the feat's benefit. Augment healing is applied AFTER empower is.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 09:02:10 PM by fenixphire »

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2019, 09:51:19 PM »
Fenixphire, you've got read it all. It can be confusing because the 1d8 "is" a variable, but its not the variable the text is referring too.  Empower Spell is multiplying the "Variable Effect" of a spell. In a cure spell, the "variable effect" is the amount of damage healed, not modifiers to a roll. It's all written out above and sourced with both the NWN source and the Players Handbook. "Variable effects" are different than "non-variable effects" in that they vary each time the spell is cast and not based on a set amount. It doesn't have anything to do with whatever modifiers are going into the variable effect. It's still a variable effect in that if you cast Magic Missiles one time you might deal 3 damage with one missile, and 5 with another, but what is NOT variable, is how many missiles you'll fire off at your given level. The fact that you get an extra missile every other level is a "non-variable effect" because every time you cast while you're at a set level, you get the same amount of missiles. Therefore that part of magic missiles is not x 1.5, while the damage IS.

The "static" level doesn't change because of Augment Healing.  A level 1 innate level cure spell gives back 2hp extra with augment.  however when that spell is "empowered" as per the feat, the spell's modifiers are all added up, added to the dice roll and then the sum total of the cure is multiplied by 1.5; therby increasing the total hp cured by 50%; or... as the "Empower Spell" description says plainly: "Half again at much."

Like this:  1d8, + 5 (caster level), + 2 (innate spell level x2 as per augment healing), = 8-15 x 1.5
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 10:05:03 PM by Hypatia »

Dante101

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2019, 10:15:11 PM »
Fenixphire, you've got read it all. It can be confusing because the 1d8 "is" a variable, but its not the variable the text is referring too.  Empower Spell is multiplying the "Variable Effect" of a spell. In a cure spell, the "variable effect" is the amount of damage healed, not modifiers to a roll. It's all written out above and sourced with both the NWN source and the Players Handbook. "Variable effects" are different than "non-variable effects" in that they vary each time the spell is cast and not based on a set amount. It doesn't have anything to do with whatever modifiers are going into the variable effect. It's still a variable effect in that if you cast Magic Missiles one time you might deal 3 damage with one missile, and 5 with another, but what is NOT variable, is how many missiles you'll fire off at your given level. The fact that you get an extra missile every other level is a "non-variable effect" because every time you cast while you're at a set level, you get the same amount of missiles. Therefore that part of magic missiles is not x 1.5, while the damage IS.

The "static" level doesn't change because of Augment Healing.  A level 1 innate level cure spell gives back 2hp extra with augment.  however when that spell is "empowered" as per the feat, the spell's modifiers are all added up, added to the dice roll and then the sum total of the cure is multiplied by 1.5; therby increasing the total hp cured by 50%; or... as the "Empower Spell" description says plainly: "Half again at much."

Like this:  1d8, + 5 (caster level), + 2 (innate spell level x2 as per augment healing), = 8-15 x 1.5

Imma just leave this here.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Empower_spell

Quote
Spells added in the expansion packs will typically have empower take place before being modified by the non-variable.

"Variable" numeric effects means numbers that are not known before the spell is cast. That is, it means the result of dice rolls, not numbers based on the caster level.

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2019, 10:43:52 PM »
I don't think any of the cure spells were added in an expansion pack unless I'm mistaken? I don't know what spells were, but it doesn't affect any of the healing spells that I can think of. The healing circle spells were added by the PofM team, not any of the NWN expansions. But I guess that clears up why some of the spells are coded one way and some are coded the other; who ever created the expansion packs must have flubbed coding their spells property. I'd say any spell that multiplies BEFORE modifiers is a bug that should probably be fixed unless its some kind of game breaker.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 10:51:17 PM by Hypatia »

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2019, 10:50:14 PM »
You supplied a quote and a link that contradict each other. Where does the quote come from. Your link agrees with me, your quote differs from the rukes in the player’s handelbook, NWN wiki, as well as the text in the feat description itself within the game. This isn’t ambiguous. You just have to read it.

The quote is directly from the page that he linked.  A simple ctrl-f search shows this.

Hypatia

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2019, 10:52:30 PM »
No idea what a control F search is lol. but I edited my post above when I figured it out. All that stuff just supports my argument. Cure spells are no post expansion.

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Re: Augment Healing & Circle Healing
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2019, 10:54:23 PM »
Going to lock this as this discussion is running in circles and fairly heated. There's no need to over-argue these things. Hypatia, as a word of advice, it's best to cool down and not respond to every single post when passionate about something. It comes off as obsessive and doesn't serve your argument.

In any case, I reviewed the source material and Empower is meant to affect the global number, including modifiers, so no need to make any changes to our spells. We already fixed the expansion ones that were incorrect a while back.