Author Topic: Holy Symbols and Vampires  (Read 1656 times)

Hypatia

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Holy Symbols and Vampires
« on: April 10, 2019, 08:56:22 PM »
I'd love to see NPC vamps have to follow the same rules as the MPC ones. So is it possible for holy symbols to have an inherent attribute to keep vamps at bay when equipped as long as you aren't in combat?  There was a knock-back effect on several different spells on a different server I played  that would actually repel enemies backwards if they got within 5' of you so they couldn't get into melee range and attack. Spells like Repel vermin, Repel Undead and Force Push. They could still shoot at you or cast spells, but not get close if they failed their save.

Maybe this could be a cone-shaped, targeted ability where you actually have to select and lock on to a single vampire that you want to repel and it could work like a cone to keep him and those close to him from getting into melee range. Maybe the vamps from the side and back could still get at you though, and if you do anything other than remain locked on to him, such as attack or cast a spell, the effect is immediately lost.

Maybe vamps have to overcome a DC of 10 + wisdom + charisma as its your faith and force of personality that forces them back. It would be nice if the feats; "Fearless" and "Iron Will" added to the DC as well.

I guess this could work on MPC vamps too, but I really like RPing it out with them. Just a thought!

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2019, 09:45:48 PM »
Vampires are varied and unique, although most share the same vulnerabilities and aversions, not all will.

That being said, in 3.0 the holy symbol must be strongly presented, so if you have the Torch variant holy symbol and start reciting your rites well enough in front of an A/MPC vampire you should get an interesting reaction (but if there's none at all ICly perhaps there's a reason they don't recoil, such as their fear of a deity is lessened in the Mists where deities don't have as strong of a connection to their followers.)

There is a feat that does force repulsion of vampires that anyone can take provided they meet the requisites.

https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Warding_Gesture

It works rather similarly to what you are after should 'Turn Undead' fail you.

There are possibly many weaknesses to the vampires we don't see that are self-imposed or listed on the monster forums, and part of the fun is finding them out through any personality quirks or nuances.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 09:49:28 PM by zDark Shadowz »

Hypatia

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2019, 11:29:01 PM »
Ya I know about all that stuff.. but none of it matches what I'm asking for here above, and this doesn't really apply to AMPCs who already do a fantastic job of RPing this.  This is for the AI controlled NPC vamps.

A holy symbol should keep a vampire at bay as long as presented with conviction and faith. I'm not looking for the sorts of existing feats that send them running. I am suggesting that ALL holy symbols have an inherent attribute that can keep them from coming close to you WHILE you are locked onto them WITH the holy symbol equipped; but ONLY if they fail a save vs. your will-based check. The "knock-back" effect is the only way I know of to actually accomplish this. It wont make the run, it won't make them loose interest or agro in you, just keep them from approaching WHILE you're holding the symbol by knocking them back.

It should ONLY work on vampires in front of you who fail the check, and if you stop "using" the holy symbol to target them directly by doing some other action, like spell casting or attacking, the effect is lost. It shouldn't  be an aura that stops vampires from coming up behind you, or attacking you from a distance. The source says vampires may seek a way around your holy symbol, they just can't approach it when presented with faith.

I personally think this check should be pretty hard to pass for the vamps that way even Noobs can ward off a vampire in this way and maybe buy time or figure out an escape. For someone with high wisdom/charisma this check should be very hard for a vampire to overcome, especially if they're a cleric.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 11:31:55 PM by Hypatia »

Legion XXI

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2019, 11:53:11 PM »
Other than being able to just loot the Terg crypts 100% effort free, what purpose would this even serve?  Like why do we need this? Why are people going into the very few places vampires spawn to NOT fight vampires? Also how can you tell if a PC is presenting it with faith and conviction or just equipping it because it makes vampires stop attacking them? 

Without really even thinking too hard I can come up with a handful of reasons this wouldn’t be easy to implement or even a great idea.  For one, I don’t know what you mean by “knock back” if you don’t mean KD or fleeing, but if you’ve got a method of retaining aggro while not allowing enemies to attack you, you’re essentially capable of endlesssly tanking them and leading them around with you on some kind of vampire safari while the rest of your party does....whatever they came there to do if it’s not get XP.  Which still remains the main source of confusion for me, since it seems this would only be applicable in an extremely small number of scenarios if any kind of spellcasting actions or combat cancel the effect.

Like what do you envision this being used for besides looting or corpse rescues?

Phantasia

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 12:11:21 AM »
there's a feat called warding gesture that might suit your needs.
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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 12:12:57 AM »
The Domains of Dread are not a typical server setting, and undead are stronger here in general. Looking at the source book, I see also that it says if a cleric creates a holy symbol here, the Domain Lord becomes aware of it. If an evil holy symbol is created, it's supposed to cause a DP check :)

Particularly in places like the Terg Ruins, I certainly would understand if a holy symbol had no effect. Or, as I read for some campaigns, its effect is to make the vampire uncomfortable and irritated but not affect its fighting ability. It might target the wielder in preference to all others!

The Unspoken Pact, on the other hand, might not include holy symbols.

All of this is to say, a rudimentary holy symbol should probably not have the power being described. A special artifact holy symbol, maybe.

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Hypatia

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 12:14:45 AM »
Legion I don’t think you’re reading my post carefully. These things are not what I said and this wouldn’t give you a single combat advantage.

Knockback was an effect used in various spells on the mulmaster server where when the spell was active, if a creature came close that was affected, it rolled a save or else got teleported back about 5’. It would stagger a moment than try again. Worked quite well.

What I’m suggesting is you activate your holy symbol at a target vampire. As long as you stay targeted ON that vampire and do NOTHING else, it will keep getting knocked back when it tries to approach you. You can’t fight, you can’t spell cast or anything. It only repels him WHILE you are target locked onto him with the symbol. This isn’t going to help you tank anything. It will keep one or two at bay as long as you take no other actions and beat their will save. It’s only used are to buy you time and to do what holy symbols are supposed to do with vampires. It’s canon, and would be nice for people who encounter vampires they can’t beat.

edit: if its your "faith" or force of "will" that gives the symbol the power to stop a vampire, than this is best represented in a DC based on your wisdom and charisma. Cleric levels should give a bonus.

Quote
Like what do you envision this being used for besides looting or corpse rescues?
This wouldn't help you loot anything.  If you've got a vampire held back, bouncing off that 5' ward, the second you click to loot something, he's all over you. I see it being used for when you're the squishy healer and your group is fighting vampires, and one of them comes for you, so you keep it at bay with your holy symbol until your group can get to you. Or you're caught in a dark alley and a vampire spawns there. You keep it at bay while you try to figure out a plan of action, such as readying  a potion of cowardice or a spell. However the second you execute these actions, the symbol is down and the vamp can attack. It buys you time, and its cool for RP.  For strong vampires, they'll probably beat your DC so problem solved there.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 12:22:36 AM by Hypatia »

Thundron

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2019, 01:23:10 AM »
Other than being able to just loot the Terg crypts 100% effort free, what purpose would this even serve?  Like why do we need this? Why are people going into the very few places vampires spawn to NOT fight vampires? Also how can you tell if a PC is presenting it with faith and conviction or just equipping it because it makes vampires stop attacking them? 

Without really even thinking too hard I can come up with a handful of reasons this wouldn’t be easy to implement or even a great idea.  For one, I don’t know what you mean by “knock back” if you don’t mean KD or fleeing, but if you’ve got a method of retaining aggro while not allowing enemies to attack you, you’re essentially capable of endlesssly tanking them and leading them around with you on some kind of vampire safari while the rest of your party does....whatever they came there to do if it’s not get XP.  Which still remains the main source of confusion for me, since it seems this would only be applicable in an extremely small number of scenarios if any kind of spellcasting actions or combat cancel the effect.

Like what do you envision this being used for besides looting or corpse rescues?
Cant you just loot terg with invisibility Potion? Or atleast with high stealth, If they have true seeing..
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 01:34:52 AM by Thundron »

Thundron

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2019, 01:45:06 AM »
Im interested about this 'crafting of holy symbol' dont cleric come with their holy symbol?

Legion XXI

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2019, 01:59:32 AM »
Yeah Thundron, you can loot it with invis or stealth.  The question wasn’t whether or not Terg ruins was possible to loot.  It was that I thought this was basically supposed to be a “vampires can’t touch me, I’m on home base” type item, which would have further trivialized an already easy and over-looted zone.

And you’re right Hypatia, I didn’t see that you meant it to be a single target effect that stops you from taking any other actions to maintain.  That actually makes it even MORE niche and LESS useful than I previously thought.  Add in the fact that the “knock back” you’re describing is some custom thing you saw on another server, and we’re looking at significant dev time/effort/testing/tweaking for a thing that I can’t imagine would ever, ever be used.  (Or able to be implemented in a way that isn’t cheekily abused). Like it’s been said before, warding gesture is a better version of what you’re wanting and already exists.  I know you probably don’t want to burn a feat on it, but that’s the trade-off I guess.

The only places you find NPC vampires are dungeons that contain groups of them.  You’re highly unlikely to come into contact with a single NPC vampire, unless you spawn one in by opening the coffins in Terg.  But if you’re doing that, you’re either clearing the dungeon or looting, and in neither scenario would this be useful.

If you accidentally get the aggro of a vampire while dungeoning, just wait 5 seconds for your party to bail you out.  As for the “cool for RP” factor, it’s only cool if it works in a way that makes IC sense.  And this really doesn’t seem to nail that, especially considering intangible things like “faith” and “conviction” play into this and aren’t represented accurately by numbers on a character sheet or in a combat log.  Add in AI not really being able to intelligently react to things like this in different contexts (especially when party members, weird pathing, and combat/fleeing combat are involved) and you just have a real weird, free version of warding gesture for single targets.

Hypatia

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2019, 02:54:12 AM »
You don’t “need” to be able to do tons of “niche” things that we can do on here, like make cabinets and put on glasses etc etc. wether or not it’s worth a developers time is kinda up to developers. Its a pretty simple script and once added, opens up quite a few new spell ideas for future haks; such as all the "repel" spells. And how on earth is using a holy symbol to keep vampires back somehow an odd or unusual a concept for the Ravenloft setting!? It’s a settting with vampires at its core, and you’re like “shesh who would ever want to be able to use a holy symbol to keep terrifying vampires back!? Stupid idea Hypatia.” Just because you can’t imagine using it, doesn’t mean others wouldn’t. I sure as heck would. An NPC vampire that gets around the tanks doesn’t need long to kill many support characters, and this would be a great way to ward them off if you can't fight them. It’s certainly no less viable than half the weird flavor stuff we have and just as useful to the right characters in the right circumstances.  As for RPing coolness... its the quintessential vampire trope. How on earth is that not valid? Its like the first thing anyone thinks of when they think of vampire hunters. As for faith in conviction, that's what your wisdom score is.. which is why you get all those bonus spells as a priest for having high wisdom. Faith and willpower. I have warding gesture, it’s great, but it doesn’t do what holy symbols do; it causes vampires and other undead to flea in terror. Holy symbols aren't supposed to do that... they are supposed to keep them at bay. I can imagine tons of fun scenes where your group is down and you've got a vampire held at bay while you desperately try to figure out what to do. This is weird opposition to a perfectly good idea that's perfectly doable. If devs don’t like it I’m sure they won’t do it.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 03:05:32 AM by Hypatia »

DM Erebus

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2019, 05:33:04 AM »
You don’t “need” to be able to do tons of “niche” things that we can do on here, like make cabinets and put on glasses etc etc. wether or not it’s worth a developers time is kinda up to developers. Its a pretty simple script

If you have a clear vision the best way to actualise I encourage you to apply for a developer position and implement it yourself.
I have reservations that the implementation could be so simple. There's a lot of things to check, like the PCs and Vampires willpower, whether the wielder has a valid deity, if they have cleric levels and so on. All of that eats server resources, and any scripted implementation is going to be sub-par to what two human players, in a PC vs MPC encounter dynamically decide.
Which leads onto my second reservation; scripted solutions cheapen the atmosphere. Once you codify something down into a set of scripts and checks and triggers, it is no longer surprising or novel. Familiarity breeds contempt, which is antithetical to the oppressive atmosphere Ravenloft tries to engender.
I think holy symbol presentation, like mistwalking and vampire staking, is best left without mechanical implementations, for this reason.

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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2019, 06:47:44 AM »
If devs don’t like it I’m sure they won’t do it.

We do not like it and will not do it, for the reasons stated by Cosmic and Legion.
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Re: Holy Symbols and Vampires
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2019, 07:47:05 AM »
To add to what Arawn said there are already mechanics in place for this: Turn Undead and Warding Gesture. They serve the exact purpose of this suggestion, so there’s no reason to implement it.