Suggestion : Dread Elemental Shape

[Ken14]

Okay, so, the current incoming Hak pak has numerous new wildshapes and it improves upon the existing ones.

A quick bravo and hurrah for the DM's on that, it looks amazeballs!


Buuuut, I did notice that the Druid's penultimate shapeshifting, Elemental Shape, isn't getting any love. And that's fair, the purview of possible choices ( such as magical beast, colossal beasts, ect) is best left to maybe a future shifter update, if ever.

However, I do feel like a Feat called 'Dread Elemental Shape' can be added fairly easily. The way I envision it:


Dread Elemental Shape:

Requirements : Elemental Shape

Flavor text: You gave tapped (unknowingly or otherwhise) into the 'natural' power of the demiplane of dread. Using up an elemental shape charge, you can shift into a blood, grave, mist or pyre elemental. This lasts for 1 hour/level.



In terms of physical abilities ( STR/DEX/CON/Health/AC/ect), you could probably use the existing templates for greater (or elder elementals!) of the correspondending elemental (Water, Earth, Wind or Fire). Tweaking could of course be done, if it's deemed needed.

Models for the dread elementals already exist ingame, so those could be used easily enough.

of course, a model swap wouldn't be really worth the feat, entirely. So each shape has it's own quirk. Admittedly, I didn't find any correct 3.5 versions of dread elementals, but based on the 5th edition ( link : https://daemonsanddeathrays.wordpress.com/2016/07/06/dread-elementals-corrupted-elementals-for-dd-5th-edition/):

Blood Elemental:
-Vulnerability : 50% Cold
-Increased damage range (4d8 instead of 2d10?)
-Vampiric regen

Grave Elemental:
-Vulnerability : 50% Electricity
-On hit : Slow DC (based on wisdom?) 50% / 2 Rounds
-Additional feat : Improved Knockdown


Mist Elemental:
-Damage Immunity : 50% Electricity
-Additional Feat : Flurry of Blows ( to mimic the onslaught of of dust devils. Other thought was perma-haste, but that'd be too overpowered.)
-On hit : Blindness DC (based on wisdom?) 50% / 2 Rounds ( much like dust devils, again.)


Pyre Elemental:
-Increased damage range ( 2d10 physical + 2d8 fire, mayhaps?)
-Flaming Hide : Inflicts d6 + caster level fire damage on anyone who makes a successful melee attack on the caster.



Any thoughts? Feedback?

[EO]

This is a good idea but won't have time to implement it in this hak update.

[noah25]

I recommended this a while back and I am a huge supporter of this.

[haifisch021]

I think it's a neat concept, but as it is druids are already quite powerful in PvP and I can only see these feats pushing them well within the bounds of "overpowered" for the server's meta. Druids can reach some of the highest (if not *the* highest) Wisdom-based DCs on the server, and giving them blindness and slows on such high DCs with so many hits per round (remember, druids do not even get Elemental Shape until level 16) would make them able to dominate any fight they get into involving melee. This is not even to mention the incredible d6+CL damage per hit, guaranteeing that anybody who can even manage to get a hit in will be taking 17 damage per hit *minimum*. Assuming that a person is swinging 4 times per round (either a 3/4 BAB prog class with haste or simply a full BAB class), that's 68 a turn, which is huge. Given this feat, druids would become an overly-oppressive melee force on the server and I can only see that as being an unhealthy change to the current PvP climate. If I were to make a suggestion, it would be to take the themes of this proposition and retool them in such a way to affect a less contested portion of the server's PvP -- casters. I won't go into too much detail, as it deserves a thread of its own, but even with wizards reeling from the massive two feat loss, wizards, sorcerers, and even other druids are pretty unbeatable in a straight fight (and while it can certainly be argued that these classes, save druid, should be confronted with an element of surprise or immediacy to deny them preparation time, any decent squishy knows to plan their encounters wisely, or at the very least make themselves scarce whenever not looking for a fight).

tl;dr : if you are going to buff an already-strong class, diminish the effect those buffs will have on people on a (relatively) even playing field with said class or else the buffs will just crush those people after they are implemented.

[Ken14]

Easy enough to tinker it within balance, I'd say.

Make the DC be based on Wisdom/2, if Druid's wisdom can reach fairly high. That way, we're looking at DC's of 15-17 at max. Still useful if the will/fort save is weak, but not incredibly so against anything with higher saves.


And that's even if the development team goes with status effects, the mists know what they'll come up with!


Something one does need to take into account with druids, however, is that they're neutral agents of nature. They're not supposed to get into PVP grudgefests, unless it involves undead or allies of forces that would see the balance of nature ruined. Or it's in self-defense.

 True, this is my headcanon, so take that with a grain of salt!


Another way to curtail this becoming OP is perhaps to make it so that feat only gives you access to one dread elemental shape? If you want all flavors of dread, you'd need to spend 4 feats, which is one hell of an investment.

[noah25]

I think it's a neat concept, but as it is druids are already quite powerful in PvP and I can only see these feats pushing them well within the bounds of "overpowered" for the server's meta. Druids can reach some of the highest (if not *the* highest) Wisdom-based DCs on the server, and giving them blindness and slows on such high DCs with so many hits per round (remember, druids do not even get Elemental Shape until level 16) would make them able to dominate any fight they get into involving melee. This is not even to mention the incredible d6+CL damage per hit, guaranteeing that anybody who can even manage to get a hit in will be taking 17 damage per hit *minimum*. Assuming that a person is swinging 4 times per round (either a 3/4 BAB prog class with haste or simply a full BAB class), that's 68 a turn, which is huge. Given this feat, druids would become an overly-oppressive melee force on the server and I can only see that as being an unhealthy change to the current PvP climate. If I were to make a suggestion, it would be to take the themes of this proposition and retool them in such a way to affect a less contested portion of the server's PvP -- casters. I won't go into too much detail, as it deserves a thread of its own, but even with wizards reeling from the massive two feat loss, wizards, sorcerers, and even other druids are pretty unbeatable in a straight fight (and while it can certainly be argued that these classes, save druid, should be confronted with an element of surprise or immediacy to deny them preparation time, any decent squishy knows to plan their encounters wisely, or at the very least make themselves scarce whenever not looking for a fight).

tl;dr : if you are going to buff an already-strong class, diminish the effect those buffs will have on people on a (relatively) even playing field with said class or else the buffs will just crush those people after they are implemented.

I understand this concern. However, as someone who has a high level druid feats get tight at high levels. I see this more of a diversity in shifting play, moreso than a pvp powerbuild. Obviously, this would depend on how the stats were managed but personally I see this being used more for roleplay than power.

[Nemesis 24]

A current elemental shape druid - yours I believe Ken - boasted an ac in the high 50's, AB in the high 30s, and doing a base of 30 something damage per strike, far outstripping my mundane weaponmaster at the time.  This would be significant power boost on top of that, on what Haifisch correctly pointed out is one of if not the strongest class now.

I dont see why it needs it, and I dont see why it deserves it, when there are other classes far more in need of a boost to match that capability.

[MAB77]

We're only speaking theoretically here, there is no plan to implement a Dread Elemental shape feat at this time. But for the sake of the discussion, do consider that tying oneself too closely to the corrupted nature of the demiplane should be highly risky. I'd expect some sort consequences that'd bite back at the druid.

[Nobelissimos]

Balancing aside, the idea sounds fun for those who want to go for a full druid elemental kind of deal. More options is always good.

[Ken14]

A current elemental shape druid - yours I believe Ken - boasted an ac in the high 50's, AB in the high 30s, and doing a base of 30 something damage per strike, far outstripping my mundane weaponmaster at the time.  This would be significant power boost on top of that, on what Haifisch correctly pointed out is one of if not the strongest class now.

I dont see why it needs it, and I dont see why it deserves it, when there are other classes far more in need of a boost to match that capability.

I will admit that this isn't far from the truth, though to even reach all of that you'd need to use a specific elemental shape, and a lot of support feats that leave little room for expanding beyond it.  Also, High 50 AC and High 30 AB is only achievable with wizard aid. Other whise, it's high 40's AC and low 30's AB.

Which yes, that's still rather powerful, I'm aware. But that base damage is only possible if you invest minimum 4 (!) feats into it. Otherwhise, you're looking at half that.

You do make a good point that it's not really necessary, right now. Indeed, classes like fighter, bard and assorted need a boost much more then druids, especially when the new Hak Pak hits. Hence why it's a suggestion! Will it be implemented? Who knows! But it definitely won't be soon. I do agree that the other classes should come first.

For all you druids out there : I play a high end druid. Nemesis is NOT wrong in that the other classes need help/boosting first.

On a sidenote, Mab does make the good point that tapping into the powers of the Demiplan of Dread's is incredible risky. Much like Voracious, usage of this feat should be liable to invoke.....consequences. Which I'll leave to the DM's, if it gets implemented, because they are far more sadistic then I am. 

[haifisch021]

 But that base damage is only possible if you invest minimum 4 (!) feats into it.

To be fair, 4 feats is basically nothing, especially when you are comparing yourself to a weapon master. In fact, 4 feats is barely any investment at all considering the returns your making and given the amount of investment it takes just to make most other builds viable. Clerics, druids, paladins, Wiz/Sorcs can self buff to the "low 40s AC / low 30's AC" range and they are all considered to be high-tier builds in the server. And this doesn't even take into account the range of other options all of these other classes have outside of AC/AB building. They have greater utility and solo potential than pretty much any other class. Giving any of them further buffs to make them excel even further, or even giving them additional features to make their build paths more diverse, is simply a disservice to any player currently not playing one of these classes, as it pushes builds on the edge of viability into obsolescence and anything less so into the obscure and dismal nether regions of obscurity.

I understand the desire to add new features to the game to make it more interesting and I respect the creativity behind it. However, in order for these changes to be implemented in a way that does not harm the rest of the playerbase, it is necessary to first address issues of balance. It would be perhaps overly-idealistic for all builds to be equally viable. However, it is not unreasonable at all to expect that those build who inevitably make their way to the top do not become indomitable in circumstances of conflict and do not become essential in circumstances of cooperation or progression.

[zDark Shadowz]

4x Elemental Essence
1x Cold Endurance
1x Primeval Wildshape
1x Elephant Skin
1x Extra Wildshape (To fit all these active powers in & continue to use some elemental essence after the 10min limit)
1x Weapon Finesse

Then any improved knockdown / improved Expertise options because it's still not quite enough for everything.

It's expensive to get the air elemental form running at that capacity from my initial assessment.

[Ken14]

4x Elemental Essence
1x Cold Endurance
1x Primeval Wildshape
1x Elephant Skin
1x Extra Wildshape (To fit all these active powers in & continue to use some elemental essence after the 10min limit)
1x Weapon Finesse

Then any improved knockdown / improved Expertise options because it's still not quite enough for everything.

It's expensive to get the air elemental form running at that capacity from my initial assessment.

Don't forget blindfight. Or any of the incoming new wildshape feats, if you want to use those. Or endurance. Or toughness. Basically, yes, the required feats for that particular build locks you out of any spellcaster or archer build.


I do agree that this isn't a feat that should be implemented any time soon. The Developers got their hands full with the current hak pak, after all.  Just a fun suggestion for later consideration.

[haifisch021]

I don't intend to turn this thread into a druid build debate, but most melee builds take endurance, blind fight, and toughness, so it's not necessarily as much of an investment for a druid specifically as it is for builds in that general archetype. With this taken into account, this is still fewer feats than many other classes need to take to be viable (compare to the six feats needed for a barbarian's Mystic Rage build, or the six feats a weapon master needs just to exist). As for the new wildshape feats, those aren't necessary for the build to be powerful and even if they were a druid receives plenty of feats to accomodate this while retaining viability. And as for locking you out of spellcasting, a druid can still cast ninth circle spells; even if they can't optimize their build to maximize the threat of their spells, the fact that they can reach high AB and high AC while retaining the ability to cast spells puts them a rung above all of the other classes who have to invest similar numbers of feats to reach comparable AB/AC and are mundane.

[Iridni Ren]

I don't intend to turn this thread into a druid build debate, but most melee builds take endurance, blind fight, and toughness, so it's not necessarily as much of an investment for a druid specifically as it is for builds in that general archetype.

I don't think Toughness is a very essential feat at all, given how common the gear is for having it on the fly. Plus, one need only equip such gear, rest, and then slot something else without losing the benefits of the feat.

For any druid with 4th circle spells, Stoneskin is going to make Toughness look pretty silly in every way possible. (And for druids who can't access Stoneskin, Toughness is going to represent at most 6 hp.)

More widely, a class-specific feat is inherently unbalancing versus a general feat. That is, the druid can always choose Toughness if she feels it is superior or otherwise critical to her build. Another class, however, cannot choose Dread Elemental Shape.

In Discord last night, we were discussing ways to reverse some of the power creep of the server. Players were advocating things like removing enchanted gear and even level caps as low as 13. In such a context I don't see a strong case for adding feats that to me feel as though they have an "epic" nature.

[noah25]

4x Elemental Essence
1x Cold Endurance
1x Primeval Wildshape
1x Elephant Skin
1x Extra Wildshape (To fit all these active powers in & continue to use some elemental essence after the 10min limit)
1x Weapon Finesse

Then any improved knockdown / improved Expertise options because it's still not quite enough for everything.

It's expensive to get the air elemental form running at that capacity from my initial assessment.

The funny thing about druids is these aren't the feats I would recommend for building a high level druid. Druids have the most class specific feats, but I wouldn't say they are the most powerful. The way I see it, druid feats are more about diversity than anything else. Arguing that druids have 9th level spells so they are good casters is a bit empty to me as an argument. Choosing 4X elemental shape is a choice this druid made but not one I would. You walk up in to a high level party and you can't offer max,extended,or empowered wards most won't want you. High AC or not.


This build also uses its hands and doesn't have weapon focus, improved critical,  or improved unarmed strike.

It doesn't have in my opinion, the best druid feat on the server.

They won't have any of the new shapeshifting forms from the hak update. Which again, are focused upon diversity moreso than anything else.

In my personal experince dumping all your eggs in to the elemental basket actually makes your druid weaker. I prefer a better balance between casting and combat, and frankly, I think the smartest druids go with zen archery. This feat in my mind is more for evil druids, like mine, whose RP would be enhanced by having those shapes available to them, since in order to take it, they would likely be making all of their other forms less powerful.