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Author Topic: Weaponmaster  (Read 5254 times)

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2019, 05:54:26 PM »
Spring Attack - great for heavy armoured tower shield users who incur an armour check penalty of -21 to get into position for using Whirlwind Attack, not so much for rogue cross-classed or Dex users I admit.

Do most tower shield/heavy armour users really meet the DEX requirement for this? I figured the point of the tower shield was to make up for AC lost to a low DEX score. The amount of feats required makes this playstyle seemingly exclusive to fighters or very specialised halfplaters, since full plate wastes much needed ability scores from other classes just for this, doesn't it?
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Danuvis

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2019, 05:58:10 PM »
Unless you can, SF: Lore and skill crossclassing aren't at all comparable (both of which have more use and mechanical benefits than most of these feats).

Skill Focus: Lore is not comparable in utility to Mobility and Spring Attack? I don't know, I'm fairly sure I'd get more use out of those two feats on some builds over +3 Lore....

Cross-classed Skills are effectively wasted and spent on the People's Champion. It's the equivalent of six skill points that are gone down the drain, considering they could have been spent In Class once you earn the PrC. Not at all comparable? Try building a People's Champion some time. Those lost Skill points hurt. (As to why you'd choose to stay pure Cleric or Paladin over People's Champion, again, easy to find if you've actually tried to build one: you don't lose 3 caster levels and you don't have to squeeze 20 Skill point pre-reqs out of base 2 Skill points per level classes. I'd happily keep a pure Cleric or Paladin over a People's Champion.)

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Regardless, I don't think anyone has at any point spoken of prerequisites being lowered for WMs, nor advocated for it.

You are incorrect. "Remove if can't be fixed" was the original suggestion.

Why the assumptions? What happened to not making an argument personal in these previous few posts? You might want to reread yours. Normally I'd not bother replying to straw man arguments, but I'll bite this once. If we're going down this route, maybe you should try building a WM sometime and actually delving thoroughly into the mechanics of the game: Mobility in itself is a horrid feat with minimal use even at its best, even in the most ideal of circumstances, doubly so when applied in the context of a WM; Spring Attack makes it completely redundant, as does Tumble (just as the skill would for other classes). This is something you /HAVE TO/ invest in to remain competitive in both PvE and PvP when it comes to classes that might ever take the aforementioned feats (which almost nobody will unless aiming for WM, and those that do as any other class will regret it). Thus, they're utterly useless, you may as well not have either feat when you have access to Tumble and/or Spring Attack. Moving on to the rest, Dodge is bugged (only applying to the current target) and ridiculously underwhelming even if it functioned fully as intended, and my opinion on Whirlwind Attack was already mirrored above by Phantasia; currently it only really serves as an aesthetically pleasant choice if you're fond of the animation. Otherwise, all it is, is a suboptimal move even in the best of scenarios.

So, yes, I'd rather take +3 Lore that will see more use in both RP and PvE, or invest CC skill points to gain access to an extremely strong PrC whilst having no feat requirements. Mechanically speaking, there's very few skills you need as those classes to begin with, and the loss of CL is a part of the cost, that should be a given, just as the WM feats are its main one. A small price to pay in comparison (not to mention WM also has a skill requirement), a price that doesn't even remotely begin to compare to that of multiple awful feats that you won't use or see used by the game 99% of the time. In exchange for the mechanical power you gain, comparing People's Champion to WM, it is evident who gets the shorter end of the stick.

As for the OP's wording, I don't see why you're nitpicking in that particular sentence, the rest of it specifically mentions the purpose of the word's usage - how is this advocating for removal, exactly? There is a distinct difference between mentioning the possibility of removal in favour of replacements and supposedly being 'wrong-headed in using a thread as a justification to lower pre-reqs on a powerful and popular PrC.'

Just to clarify a few things correctly.

Dodge works. If you have 33 AC and an enemy you're fighting rolls a 33, they will miss instead of hitting for meeting the AC.

Mobility works on all attacks of opportunity, not just movement. Drink a potion, have +4 AC to those attack of opportunities. This is excellent for drinking healing potions while assisting avoiding further damage from attacks of opportunity.

Spring Attack - great for heavy armoured tower shield users who incur an armour check penalty of -21 to get into position for using Whirlwind Attack, not so much for rogue cross-classed or Dex users I admit.

Whirlwind Attack to provoke a full attack bonus against all enemies in reach. Someone with a scimitar that now does 55% chance for x3 damage on each creature within range that it hits watches the blood fly. (More useful in Perfidus temple than anywhere else really but still useful just to hit everything even from flank or tank stance.)

There's nothing useless about the feats, only situations where they are useless, like having improved knockdown when you're a halfling fighting a dragon or you're taunting but the creature has 80+ concentration anyway. Used correctly they do everything as intended.

As for the Ki Damage argument, if regular attacks work better because of crits, then use regular/FEAT attacks on living people and use Ki Damage on undead/critical immune things that generally have immunity to some combat feats anyway.

Last I checked and tested the ability on my WM, the last attacker ignores the 1 Other AC you're supposed to be receiving, in spite of the feat's claims, and thus it is in fact bugged. Even if it worked as mentioned in the description, I find it to be useless, especially when you cannot retain the AC upon being flat-footed.

Likewise, in my previous bout of testing, Mobility didn't grant you a bonus when doing something like drinking potions. Unless something has been specifically done in recent memory to remedy this, it hasn't changed and so remains a bad feat. Even if it helped with potions, it would still not be worth the feat investment.

Spring Attack; let's assume you're not a mechanically competent player that can easily get by without this feat (which makes it negligible), FP wearing, shield carrying classes that could even afford this feat (so solely pure Fighters) have far better choices in the form of custom feats, not to mention with this kind of feat progression you'll already have Improved Expertise to nullify the chances of being struck when having to move, and so this feat remains a waste. Besides, if you're not crossclassing as a Fighter, you're doomed to have a bad time.

Whirlwind Attack, I'd reread the OP's take on it. Having some use in one dungeon (and even then it is an arguably bad way to spend your round in a place where casters and other particular critical hit vulnerable NPCs are the greater threat) doesn't really lessen how bad of a feat this is. The second best of an underwhelming lot, perhaps, but all the same a disappointing ability.

In regards to Ki Attack, it still is a little underwhelming for an iconic ability of the PrC; it's supposed to be used against living beings, not immune creatures. Surely you see how it's terribly backwards that it might have more benefit in targetting the very counter of the class.

All in all, they may not be useless in your eyes (which from a mechanical point of view is a matter of semantics and frankly plain wrong, simply because a feat may have a use in one or two dungeons and equally few scenarios doesn't make it a worthwhile feat), but they most certainly are underwhelming and simply bad feats. Now, if you introduced an equal amount of equally awful feats to other PrCs that also demand similar dedication and training (which is arguably most PrCs), you'd hear fewer complaints from me. That isn't particulary enjoyable or balance healthy, though, is it?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:24:03 PM by Danuvis »
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2019, 06:19:07 PM »
It's interesting to see most people dont see any problem with forcing people to take feats that are mostly useless. For a class that you won't gain any benefits from against more than half the server's dungeons.

The problem is not the Prestige Class, but the Feats.

It's perfectly OK for a Prestige Class to have some sub-optimal or even outright bad pre-reqs. That's the trade off when taking a Prestige Class.

This. It is the definition of balance. People "don't see any problem" with ECL of 2, for example, on certain races because the perception is that the advantages are worth the disadvantages. Even if these feats provide zero advantage, they would still not be the equivalent cost to two entire levels.

All classes (and races) have weaknesses that if we look only at those we would say the class/race is bad.

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maybe you should try building a WM sometime and actually delving thoroughly into the mechanics of the game

A couple of people who have played WM extensively seem okay with the way it is now.

No one is forced to write an app and take WM. Plenty people do. That's strong evidence that not everyone looks at the class and thinks this feat cost is prohibitive.

If the feats are junk (and DarkShadows argues they are not), then at least improving those would make more choices available to all players--not just players of WMs. Dodge, in passing, I've been told to take before by players who know how to build.

I don't claim to :)

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Hypatia

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2019, 06:25:06 PM »
Doesn't mobility give you a +4 vs AoO? Isn't that pretty valuable when you're trying to chug a potion and your down to your last few HP. Seems like avoiding that AoO could save your butt with some regularity. That doesn't seem like a waste to me.

Dodge might be overshadowed by all the crazy AC boosts you can get here, but its still 1 higher, and that's a 1in20 chance that might decide a duel, I've been in PvP that was that close.

Spring Attack... well... it sucks if you've got tumble, but ah well.. one wasted feat for super powered damage and threat range isn't the end of the world. Maybe this one could use a little love, like giving you +5 on attacks of opportunity or extending your threat range to 10' when making them.

There's a LOT of undead on this server, making the Ki strike much more useful than on other servers.

All I can say, when I was playing a weapon master, I'd have taken pretty much any 3 feats, no matter how pointless in order to get my 15-20 threat range and be dishing out 80-100 damage per hit. I think given how many people across every server I've ever been on seemed to agree with that sentiment, its probably not a hot-button issue that needs fixing.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:29:13 PM by Hypatia »

APorg

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2019, 06:27:10 PM »
Why the assumptions? What happened to not making an argument personal in these previous few posts?

I'm sorry that you consider it a strawman to suggest that if you can't think of any reason to not take People's Champion, then you probably haven't built one; but the fact of the matter is, considering the very serious costs involved in being a People's Champion, implying it's a no-brainer upgrade on a pure Cleric or Paladin implies to me you haven't seriously looked at the Prestige Class.

A People's Champion loses 3 caster levels over a pure build. That alone ends any thought of it being a no-brainer choice. That's on top of a 20 point Skill Pre-Req for a INT+2 Skill class.

A Weapon Master loses a few Feats, but this is PotM, a server which gives us a huge amount of bonus Feats, and they'll usually be dipping Fighter for even more Feats; Weapon Masters are not a Feat-starved build.

Frankly I find Weapon Master much cheaper.

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In exchange for the mechanical power you gain, comparing People's Champion to WM, it is evident who gets the shorter end of the stick.

I've not yet met the powergamer who'll choose People's Champion over pure Cleric, but who knows, maybe you're the one to prove us wrong.

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As for the OP's wording, I don't see why you're nitpicking in that particular sentence, the rest of it specifically mentions the purpose of the word's usage - how is this advocating for removal, exactly? There is a distinct difference between mentioning the possibility of removal in favour of replacements and supposedly being wrong-headed in using a thread as a justification to lower pre-reqs on a powerful and popular PrC.

You're the one challenging me on my interpretation of the word "removal"? I don't think I'm the one nitpicking, mate.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:28:42 PM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2019, 08:16:55 PM »
I haven't read all of this, but I will say this.  The other night we took a bard, a sorcerer and two weapon masters, to the desert trolls.  The sorceror and bard made it easy, but...

We cleared it on max spawn in six minutes.  The damage output was immense. 

Just going to make a mention of that, I think it important.

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2019, 08:17:12 PM »
Spring Attack... well... it sucks if you've got tumble, but ah well.. one wasted feat for super powered damage and threat range isn't the end of the world. Maybe this one could use a little love, like giving you +5 on attacks of opportunity or extending your threat range to 10' when making them.

Spring Attack leads into a feat called Circling Mongoose in Pathfinder that's exceptionally useful for Rogues or really anyone who decides to take Outflank. Effectively it lets you flank with yourself because you move around the enemy as you attack. I'm not saying the entirety of this feat should be shoved into POTM but perhaps making Spring Attack (or a new feat requiring it as a prereq, so it's not JUST there to lock out Whirlwind Attack) count yourself as a flanking partner if you moved that round would make it more useful.

It's not like flanking is hard to accomplish anyways. Would give Rogues a neat, flavorful way to sneak attack while solo more reliably too.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 08:20:19 PM by t0rchic »

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2019, 10:46:08 PM »
I haven't read all of this, but I will say this.  The other night we took a bard, a sorcerer and two weapon masters, to the desert trolls.  The sorceror and bard made it easy, but...

We cleared it on max spawn in six minutes.  The damage output was immense. 

Just going to make a mention of that, I think it important.

I used to duo trolls with my WM and a bard, what's your point? Did Mobility or Dodge or Spring Attack somehow make your damage spike? People seem to keep mistaking many of the arguments here as arguments about the PRC itself being bad. It's not. It's a good PRC, albeit a bit of a lame duck for a lot of the servers dungeon content, and taken often for both power and RP purposes.

This does not change the fact that several of the feats required to take the PRC are worthless, or near enough next to.

I've had a WM for upwards of 10 years now and complained privately about the uselessness of several of the feats required to take the Weaponmaster PRC often. I lamented that I had to take Spring Attack which only works properly if you click on a monster somewhere in a cluster and your character moves to attack, never if you just move on your own. It has also failed to work as intended several times for me if my character bumps another monster and pathfinding forces movement. Mobility, which is unlikely to ever trigger on anything but movement AoO's as far as I can tell, which offers +4 AC -IF- you fail a tumble check for movement. And Whirlwind Attack, a feat that was literally unusable for YEARS because of it's ability to bug your character. WW Attack also has little viable use in combat. Enemies often move about when you initiate the ability, removing themselves from the AoE and thus ignoring it, and it is often a net loss of attacks vs. enemies in situations unless you are utterly surrounded which is a bad place to be unless you're showing off vs kobolds or something.

I've never complained about my class lacking power, I've never complained about feeling useless. I've only complained that the feat investment is above and beyond that of any other PRC for so little return on those feats.

Even a quick glance at other Prestige Classes can easily show you that none of them even come close to the mechanical requirements of a WM.

WM
Spoiler: show
To qualify as a weapon master, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:

Base attack bonus: +5

Feats: dodge, mobility, expertise, spring attack, weapon focus in a melee weapon, and whirlwind attack

Skills: intimidate 4 ranks

Note: Getting these feats requires dexterity and intelligence scores of at least 13.


Dwarven Defender
Spoiler: show
To qualify as a dwarven defender, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:

Alignment: any lawful

Base attack bonus: +7

Feats: dodge, toughness

Race: dwarf


Red Dragon Disciple
Spoiler: show
Requirements: Red dragon disciple is a prestige class, so certain criteria must be fulfilled before a character may acquire this class. These criteria are the following.

Class:   bard or sorcerer
Skills:   lore (8 ranks)


etc.
The only PRC that comes close to the number of requirements as WM is Grimetrekker, which requires 3 feats and 8 skillpoints. While the Grimetrekker class itself suffers from mediocrity (although an awfully neat aesthetic) the feats it requires are all useful to the class, and indeed overall. Back to the Wall, Great Fortitude, and Blind Fight. I feel like you'd be hard pressed to find any character that's melee oriented that doesn't take the Blind Fight feat especially. And since it keeps getting brought up, I don't really see the skill point requirements for People's Champion as a hindrance in the slightest considering you're trading a 2+INT skillpoint class for a 4+INT skillpoint PRC. Your overall loss of skillpoints is negligible, and you will still end up casting level 9 spells w/ only 3 CL lost (albeit a bit later). 11 Cleric/4 Peoples Champion will be only 2 levels behind in getting access to level 7 spells, which has access to most of the clerics best spells already. Heal, Divine Power, Resurrection etc.

As a final note (and some anecdotal evidence since we love it so much  ;)), while my build is not even slightly optimal for my Weapon Master, I have a Fighter/Barbarian character who can easily keep pace with their damage output, and in fact has managed to keep up with other Weaponmasters as well, and even handily does better in dungeons featuring creatures immune to critical hits. No major feat investment, no stats bumped to acquire those feats. Just an awfully hard hitting character.

P.S.
I didn't touch on Ki Strike because I didn't feel like there was a place to fit it in my rant. I don't think the ability is particularly useful, and have often ignored it in the past. I'm apathetic to changes on it, but possibly reworking it to make better use of its limited nature might be a good thing to think about.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2019, 12:46:50 AM »
People seem to keep mistaking many of the arguments here as arguments about the PRC itself being bad. It's not. It's a good PRC, albeit a bit of a lame duck for a lot of the servers dungeon content, and taken often for both power and RP purposes.

This does not change the fact that several of the feats required to take the PRC are worthless, or near enough next to.

It's an easy enough "mistake" to make...given the thread name. Perhaps we should start a different thread or threads about each feat, if that's the real argument.

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I've never complained about my class lacking power, I've never complained about feeling useless. I've only complained that the feat investment is above and beyond that of any other PRC for so little return on those feats.

Then, ultimately, the feat cost doesn't matter. If the end result is a build that doesn't lack for power or feel useless, the return for those feats appears sufficient.

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Even a quick glance at other Prestige Classes can easily show you that none of them even come close to the mechanical requirements of a WM.

For prestige classes, the more important gate is the application, rather than the mechanical requirements. I've heard many times that WM is the easiest PrC to get approved for.

I don't think your (two) examples support your case. Only one race and 3 alignments are pretty big constraints (Dwarven Defender).  RDD does seem to have easy mechanical gates, but app wise, it again is supposed to be difficult to get approved. (Although I have seen enough RDDs that I could be convinced otherwise.)

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The only PRC that comes close ...

Hallowed Witch?

Saying these three feats are useless is an argument about the feats. But saying it's unfair that WMs have to take three useless feats is an argument about WMs...and the class's overall balance.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 12:48:26 AM by Iridni Ren »

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Phantasia

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2019, 12:49:50 AM »
My bad, let me just change the thread name really quick to pander to people who read things at face value.

Spoiler: show
I'm not going to, but I do appreciate the further responses derailing this thread from its original purpose into something completely else.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 12:52:57 AM by Phantasia »
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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2019, 01:29:53 AM »
Wasn't looking to start a fight honestly, with the statement I made.  Surprised it warranted one, but anyway.

I agree the feat requirement and especially the MAD is overkill for the class.  Its not simply the feats but the MAD that comes with it, that make it lack in many aspects as well.  Its a two fold requirements that more or less forces a fairly specific build type with the class, knowing that you have to have excessive feats that you won't use for much else.

The payoff is (mostly) limited use class in terms of where it can go (any of the crit immune spawn dungeons it is no better than any fighter), but where it 'can' go it is staggeringly effective (with the right support) but mostly, it functions as some manner of glass cannon.  That said, in certain aspects it 'is' very strong, and adjusting the requirements to get it would potentially make it much stronger still.  Its the only thing I worry about, if some feats are removed as requirements, then others can take its place, and there are frankly some really good feats I'd love to have - but the class 'is' very strong.  It 'could' end up being a bit of a tricky one, its the only reason I'm wary.  If we reduce the feat requirements and remove some of the feats (because frankly, the only one that WM actually asks for is Whirlwind Attack, its the requirements for Whirlwind attack that are ridiculous) we could end up with the class getting stronger again.  It could be problematic, is all I'm worried about, especially since there 'are' some feats I'd love to take, but I also know how strong it would make my character to take them.  I always get a bit wary with that.  Players like Legion and Pav have pointed out some of the truly shocking power of WM in the past, and I don't really like to disparage their expertise on the matter.

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2019, 01:48:43 PM »
I personally think that the prerequiste feats could be reduced a bit or perhaps be changed with newer feats that have been added, though to me this is minor.

What I find strange though is that if you want to specialize in a weapon then you are better off just being a pure fighter, even though IIRC the whole point of the Weapon Master is to do just that. Yet the WM does not have access to Greater Weapon Focus or Greater Weapon Specialization, which I figure they would have access to but they don't. They also don't have access to Overwhelming Critical but that is a little more understandable.


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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2019, 02:11:20 PM »
I personally think that the prerequiste feats could be reduced a bit or perhaps be changed with newer feats that have been added, though to me this is minor.

What I find strange though is that if you want to specialize in a weapon then you are better off just being a pure fighter, even though IIRC the whole point of the Weapon Master is to do just that. Yet the WM does not have access to Greater Weapon Focus or Greater Weapon Specialization, which I figure they would have access to but they don't. They also don't have access to Overwhelming Critical but that is a little more understandable.

Yeah. WM levels should count as fighter levels for the sake of feats. For other classes going into WM they'll get access to some fighter feats and WM gets less feats than fighter so they're still a real investment.

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2019, 02:27:05 PM »
On the weapon focus front I believe the greater weapon focus was being dropped to 8 fighter and weapon masters get superior weapon focus at lvl 5, so a fighter/wm would have both by lvl 13.

https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=49757.0
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 02:38:44 PM by zDark Shadowz »