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Author Topic: Weaponmaster  (Read 5256 times)

Phantasia

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Weaponmaster
« on: March 18, 2019, 02:26:11 PM »
Yes, I know, increased crit multiplier is a really nice thing and really strong (tm). Though this class has some glaring faults I think is about time are considered to be addressed which I will outline below.

Prerequisites are first on the menu. I speak broadly when I say this, but I don't think there is a single person out there that can agree with a straight face that the current feat requirements do any good for the class and only hinder player choice and versatility. By three to four feats which largely, have no immediate or extremely trivial use. I will provide links to the wiki pages as well.

We'll start with Dodge. Pretty self explanatory if you read the page. You get 1 AC that doesn't apply when flat footed, listed as "other" AC. I think this is rather unfortunate, given the literal name of the feat. Furthermore, in extensive testing done in the past, the 1 AC against your "last attacker" has never worked and still does not work to my knowledge. A good feat for dueling someone directly, but not an overall 1 AC gain, unlike Bonetti's Defense or Two Weapon Defense.

Expertise is always useful. No real complaints here.

Spring Attack. Here we go. This feat is utterly nullified by the investment in the tumble skill even in full plate armor. At a fixed DC of 14 to avoid an attack of opportunity with tumble, and most Weaponmasters wearing Half Plate or lighter, this is laughably easy to overcome on PotM especially. You could say, of course, that not everyone splashes Rogue into their Weaponmaster build and it's useful for those sorts, but how many of those actually are there? Not taking Rogue with your Weaponmaster is like not putting butter on bread. It's a direct hindrance and you lose next to nothing for putting in 3 Rogue levels minimum. And even if you are a Fighter/Weaponmaster, why would you not cross-class tumble either way? Redundant.

Mobility. Arguably another redundant feat. If the player is smart and knows how to avoid Attacks of Opportunity already, what use is this to the Weaponmaster that cannot even provoke most Attacks of Opportunity that matter in the first place? If built correctly they already have an insane amount of AC mid combat and are not exactly at risk of being hit.

Weapon Focus is self explanatory.

Last but not least, Whirlwind Attack! I feel as if I don't have to explain much here. You are committing a full action to spinning around in a circle when you could instead, spend four attacks on one target (five if hasted), having a high chance of killing it and potentially another. If this could be implemented as a free action instead, I could see the use. However, anyone that's ever played a Weaponmaster can agree that this feat is quite worthless. Especially here on PotM.

So there we have it. Three to four feats that are a largely considered a waste by most Weaponmaster players. It would be very nice if we could consider removing these as prerequisites or fixing the ones that can be fixed (and by popular demand, replacing them).

-----------------------------------------------------------

Moving on to one final point I'd like to make about Weaponmasters is one of their core functioning abilities, Ki Strike. From a quote I pulled from the wiki from someone who seems to have figured out how the system is supposed to work, he had this to say:

Quote
Ki damage critical hits only apply maximum damage to the first weapon base damage roll. Thus a critical hit with a x2 multiplier would deal (as far as base weapon damage is concerned) normal base weapon damage + maximized base weapon damage. The base weapon damage of a critical hit with x3 multiplier is two instances of base weapon damage and one instance of maximized base weapon damage. Etc. -WhiZard 14:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

From what it sounds like, this is what happens -- Greatsword critical hit with Ki Strike translates to: x3, so , (1d12 + 1d12 + 12) + all other damage modifiers x 3.

(It's very important to note that the base damage is not actually multiplied here, resulting in less damage).

An interesting choice to make for Ki Damage criticals, given that just multiplying 12 by 3 gives you far better damage potential than two random dice and one static number would. On average, non-critical hits, Ki Damage always wins out. But you can't accurately predict when you'll land a critical hit, nor is it useful against high AC targets exactly. So, what is the point of Ki Damage over all? Can it possibly be made into something better? I of course invite people to comment who have had extensive experience with this Weaponmaster feat and Weaponmaster experience in general to get an overall feel for where the class is at the moment.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 04:24:47 PM by Phantasia »
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Danuvis

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2019, 02:35:10 PM »
Agreed all around, I can't think of a single other PrC with prerequisites as redundant (or even as demanding) as most of a WM's. Ideally either the feats themselves are improved upon (encouraging even non-WMs to go for them, because let's face it, nobody mechanically competent will ever favour Mobility, Dodge, Spring Attack, or Whirlwind Attack over the myriad custom feats PotM has; even the vast majority of vanilla feats are far better) or they'd be replaced with new ones.

Ki Strike is in a better spot than the aforementioned feats, but this also feels rather underwhelming for one of the few abilities that a WM receives (and one with charges, no less). That being said, my feeling on this ability stems largely from NWN's clunky combat where missing the first attack becomes an all too frequent an occurence, especially so if you're focused on some other aspect of the ongoing fighting - which is doubly true for PvP, I'd think.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 02:53:24 PM by Danuvis »
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Hypatia

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2019, 02:35:27 PM »
I think the reason that weapon master requires tons of feats that aren't super useful is because the payoff is incredible, and if you could walk right in and take it; why would anyone ever play a fighter? A weapon master is just like a fighter, only he deals significantly more damage... so... what possible reason could you have with sticking with straight fighter if weapon master didn't suck up all your feats, forcing you down a certain narrow path to achieve? I played a weapon master before with a 2-handed sword and holy crap he was a monster. I had to give up several feats I might have wanted, but he could dominate other melee character around his level with ease, so I really can't see a need to free up any feat slots for even more power than the huge threat-range and damage multiplier a weapon master already gets.

That kind of power probably shouldn't be easy to achieve.

Edward

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2019, 02:37:15 PM »
Fortunately there is also an application that needs to be accepted, thus not making it easy to achieve at all.

Phantasia

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2019, 02:38:16 PM »
I think the reason that weapon master requires tons of feats that aren't super useful is because the payoff is incredible, and if you could walk right in and take it; why would anyone ever play a fighter? A weapon master is just like a fighter, only he deals significantly more damage... so... what possible reason could you have with sticking with straight fighter if weapon master didn't suck up all your feats, forcing you down a certain narrow path to achieve? I played a weapon master before with a 2-handed sword and holy crap he was a monster. I had to give up several feats I might have wanted, but he could dominate other melee character around his level with ease, so I really can't see a need to free up any feat slots for even more power than the huge threat-range and damage multiplier a weapon master already gets.

That kind of power probably shouldn't be easy to achieve.

The payoff is not incredible. Multiple times I've beaten a Weaponmaster with better equipment than me in a straight fight as a sub optimal Fighter/Rogue, but also beaten a fair amount of times as well. Granted, numerically, a Weaponmaster should just be able to click on you once and you're beyond dead if they out gear and out level you which was the case for me large in part (save maybe one level). You severely underestimate how in-line they are for a server like Prisoners of the Mists.

All I am suggesting is some quality of life improvements. Not to make the class immensely stronger.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 02:59:08 PM by Phantasia »
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2019, 02:50:33 PM »
Since this class is a prestige class and therefore requires an application, data should be readily available about how many players apply for it.

If the CC receives a lot of applications for WM, I'd be skeptical that the class needs further enhancement. The desire for players to play a class to me is the strongest indicator of whether a class is viable and fun to play (in totality), or whether it needs some "love."

Regarding the complaints about the specific feats, Danuvis's suggestion that the feats themselves be improved seems a better one. Doing so would be less likely to lead to power creep (i.e., now fighters need enhancing, since WM is better, etc.). And if it's true that few players ever take these feats willingly, then the feats aren't adding to build diversity as is.


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Gloryhound

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2019, 03:02:53 PM »
Quote
The payoff is not incredible. Multiple times I've beaten a Weaponmaster with better equipment than me in a straight fight as a sub optimal Fighter/Rogue. Granted, numerically, a Weaponmaster should just be able to click on you once and you're beyond dead if they out gear and out level you which was the case for me large in part. You severely underestimate how in-line they are for a server like Prisoners of the Mists.

This is a bit disingenuous. For one thing, by the time she made it to level eighteen (and she never made it higher), it was no longer a question who would win unless special conditions were imposed. The second part, that the weaponmaster out-geared and out-leveled you, is just wrong; her gear was the same tier as Juste's and her level was always at least two lower.

For context, I played a weaponmaster (Magda Marceaux, the weaponmaster to whom Sword is referring) up to level eighteen, a character who also trained a number of currently active weaponmasters (Jean, Nielsine). In an unbuffed fight, she won virtually every time, including consistently against a (suboptimal) fighter-rogue who was two levels above her. I did not find I had a lack of feats; to the contrary, I ended up with several more than I strictly needed, leaving me free to pick whatever I wanted.

I have no complaints; I'd like Ki Damage to be a bit splashier, given its iconic status, but am quite content with how the class currently sits.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 03:29:59 PM by Gloryhound »

Phantasia

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2019, 03:13:55 PM »
I could touch on a lot of details (in regards to all that) that I'm just not going to waste the thread's life span with at the moment. You are of course, free to believe what you want.

Arguing against quality of life improvements for the Weaponmaster class seems silly in 2019, given we're still using vanilla prerequisites and vanilla functions.

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emptyanima

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2019, 03:25:36 PM »
The reason for the high feat cost in comparison to other PrCs is to reflect the level of training and dedication required.

The feats themselves represent the skills that the training WM has acquired in order to achieve their high level of skill with their chosen weapon. It's not about what the player knows, but what the character knows. It may be that 'the player is smart and knows how to avoid Attacks of Opportunity already', but Mobility represents that in-game.

I currently play a WM (not actively at the moment but she is around) and I have no issue with the class at present, but admittedly I am still early in my WM progression. I also like Whirlwind Attack but I admit it has limited uses.

APorg

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2019, 03:40:15 PM »
There really doesn't need to be more incentive to go Weapon Master over pure Fighter or even Rogue/Fighter.
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Phantasia

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2019, 03:41:40 PM »
Again, it's not about giving greater incentive. If someone wants big crits they'll go Weaponmaster. It's about the blatantly redundant or broken feats required to even take the class in the first place large in part.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 03:43:17 PM by Phantasia »
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Danuvis

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2019, 03:52:06 PM »
An odd argument to make, if it was a matter of incentive and power, why make any class at all more powerful than others? Looking at you, Hallowed Witch and People's Champion. Whyever go with a pure Paladin or Cleric when the latter is far stronger? Or a normal Cleric or arcanist when Hallowed Witch is superior? See how little sense there is in that argument...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 03:55:03 PM by Danuvis »
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APorg

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2019, 03:55:55 PM »
Many classes require taking questionable or weak feats or Skills; Pale Master requires Skill Focus: Lore; People's Champion requires buying up two Skills up to 3 cross-class (the equivalent of two feats).

Weapon Master here follows the book. Pointing out that Spring Attack or Mobility are weak here is more underlining how overpowered certain NWN adaptations, like Tumble giving Dodge AC and therefore making Tumble a no-brainer even for non-Rogue WMs, affect the metagame.

In other words, this really should be  about balancing Feats. Using this as a justification to lower pre-reqs on a powerful and popular PrC is wrong-headed.
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Phantasia

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2019, 03:58:24 PM »
So deflecting the argument to nerf Tumble makes more sense? It isn't wrong to argue for the removal or replacement of broken and NON FUNCTIONING (or ones that don't have any practical USE) feats. I can't fathom why anyone would want to argue otherwise, unless they are deflecting for some reason or another.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 04:04:26 PM by Phantasia »
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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2019, 04:02:32 PM »
I can't really speak on Weapon master specifically as I've never played one on POTM.  I can say the feat investment is a large turnoff from even trying, though, on a character I play that would consider it.  It's a turnoff specifically for the reasons stated by Sword.

My personal wish is that all PrCs be both enticing to take from a roleplay standpoint and mechanically pleasing as well.  I feel like POTM lacks this, personally, but this isn't a dig at the developers.  Just a matter of different opinions on balance.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 04:04:08 PM by FinalHeaven »



Danuvis

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2019, 04:08:17 PM »
Name me a single PrC that requires an equal or even similar amount of feat investment in exchange for an equally powerful PrC as WM. Unless you can, SF: Lore and skill crossclassing aren't at all comparable (both of which have more use and mechanical benefits than most of these feats). Regardless, I don't think anyone has at any point spoken of prerequisites being lowered for WMs, nor advocated for it. I'd personally like to see the aforementioned ones simply improved, given an actual purpose and use apart from having IC relevance. Nobody likes useless feats.
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APorg

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2019, 04:10:41 PM »
So deflecting the argument to nerf Tumble makes more sense? It isn't wrong to argue for the removal or replacement of broken and NON FUNCTIONING (or ones that don't have any practical USE) feats. I can't fathom why anyone would want to argue otherwise, unless they are deflecting for some reason or another.

It's not deflection to point out that Weapon Master is MEANT to have a high Feats pre-requisite. You didn't suggest changing the pre-reqs, you suggested removing them altogether if they couldn't be fixed. You are arguing for a straight up power boost. This is a bad idea on a powerful and popular PrC.

As to your "I can't fathom" nonsense, don't start making this thread personal. I'm arguing against your position because it has obvious flaws, not because I have an ulterior motive.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2019, 04:21:05 PM »
Can't you get all those feats by level 7 or earlier? You even get two back with your first two levels of WM.

I agree with people talking about the feats that need buffs or changes, so I thought up a few on the spot.

Whirlwind Attack being a free action might be a bit much, but if you sacrificed one of your attacks per round to do it, that should be fine.

Spring attack was clearly not thought through by the developers of NWN almost 2 decades ago, maybe it should allow you to retaliate against one attack of opportunity per round, since "Spring attack" itself implies a strictly offensive maneuver or even ambush.

Mobility could grant any number of bonuses, maybe a small movement speed increase if you have been in combat within the last turn.
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APorg

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2019, 04:22:48 PM »
Unless you can, SF: Lore and skill crossclassing aren't at all comparable (both of which have more use and mechanical benefits than most of these feats).

Skill Focus: Lore is not comparable in utility to Mobility and Spring Attack? I don't know, I'm fairly sure I'd get more use out of those two feats on some builds over +3 Lore....

Cross-classed Skills are effectively wasted and spent on the People's Champion. It's the equivalent of six skill points that are gone down the drain, considering they could have been spent In Class once you earn the PrC. Not at all comparable? Try building a People's Champion some time. Those lost Skill points hurt. (As to why you'd choose to stay pure Cleric or Paladin over People's Champion, again, easy to find if you've actually tried to build one: you don't lose 3 caster levels and you don't have to squeeze 20 Skill point pre-reqs out of base 2 Skill points per level classes. I'd happily keep a pure Cleric or Paladin over a People's Champion.)

Quote
Regardless, I don't think anyone has at any point spoken of prerequisites being lowered for WMs, nor advocated for it.

You are incorrect. "Remove if can't be fixed" was the original suggestion.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 04:35:04 PM by aprogressivist »
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Phantasia

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2019, 04:23:45 PM »
I have stated multiple times they could be replaced. As have others.
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Hypatia

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2019, 05:17:50 PM »
Just think of the dodge, mobility and spring attack as a particular training regiment that allows your character to master the ability to find the perfect weak-spots to attack, and having the deft movements needed to make them hurt more. Think of it as having a canny ability to maneuver in combat to the best positions to launch uber-crits. The feats aren't useless, they're what allow you to crit regularly for 80+ damage.

Or look at it this way... do you think the Chosen One NEEDED to master the skill of repeatedly three-finger grabbing the little triangles off wooden dummies? Surley he could have spent his time better by choosing power attack, weapon-focus: gopher-chucks, improved flesh-plug remover, etc.. things of more use to him in a regular fight.. BUT.. in order to beat evil Betty, he needed mobility, dodge and spring attack to get in past Betty's kung-fu grip and rip those little triangles off his invincible iron body, thus critting evil Betty for more damage than his DR could absorb. Feats well spent.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 05:20:22 PM by Hypatia »

Phantasia

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2019, 05:18:30 PM »
Let's avoid justifying broken/redundant feats as "IC training," please.
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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2019, 05:22:18 PM »
Just to clarify a few things correctly.

Dodge works. If you have 33 AC and an enemy you're fighting rolls a 33, they will miss instead of hitting for meeting the AC.

Mobility works on all attacks of opportunity, not just movement. Drink a potion, have +4 AC to those attack of opportunities. This is excellent for drinking healing potions while assisting avoiding further damage from attacks of opportunity.

Spring Attack - great for heavy armoured tower shield users who incur an armour check penalty of -21 to get into position for using Whirlwind Attack, not so much for rogue cross-classed or Dex users I admit.

Whirlwind Attack to provoke a full attack bonus against all enemies in reach. Someone with a scimitar that now does 55% chance for x3 damage on each creature within range that it hits watches the blood fly. (More useful in Perfidus temple than anywhere else really but still useful just to hit everything even from flank or tank stance.)

There's nothing useless about the feats, only situations where they are useless, like having improved knockdown when you're a halfling fighting a dragon or you're taunting but the creature has 80+ concentration anyway. Used correctly they do everything as intended.

As for the Ki Damage argument, if regular attacks work better because of crits, then use regular/FEAT attacks on living people and use Ki Damage on undead/critical immune things that generally have immunity to some combat feats anyway.


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« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 05:30:52 PM by zDark Shadowz »

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2019, 05:32:57 PM »
It's interesting to see most people dont see any problem with forcing people to take feats that are mostly useless. For a class that you won't gain any benefits from against more than half the server's dungeons.

Why not change thems for feats that would actually be useful and still make sense for the character? Feats such has "Back to the wall", "Power attack", "Cleave". Those feats would still make sense for an IC standpoint of the training, and actually be much better than most of the skills pointed out. Because lets be honest, who the hell takes mobility, spring attack and whirlwind attack if they aren't planning on going the WM route?

On whirlwind attack, I'm glad to see it was fixed and now doesn't make you relog when you hit only a few creatures at the same time. However, while it might be decent when you only have 2 attacks and aren't hasted, it becomes less and less good as you go up. And that's without the problem that when you're surrounded by creatures that have a long reach, aka Salamanders, you can't even reach them with your whirlwind attack since you're so far away.

Ki damage really could use a bit of a rework. Currently, a hit will do full damage from the weapon damage + the bonus from steel. But it won't max any elemental damage from varnishes or sonic/fire/cold weapon. Can't say for positive damage from enchanting since i'm not there yet. However, the moment you get a crit, only the first attack will me maxed, and not the rest, making it really not that great for something you get charges on.

APorg

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Re: Weaponmaster
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2019, 05:52:04 PM »
It's interesting to see most people dont see any problem with forcing people to take feats that are mostly useless. For a class that you won't gain any benefits from against more than half the server's dungeons.

The problem is not the Prestige Class, but the Feats.

It's perfectly OK for a Prestige Class to have some sub-optimal or even outright bad pre-reqs. That's the trade off when taking a Prestige Class. Heck, some Prestige Classes have pre-reqs designed entirely to force people to take unusual Feats which otherwise tend not to be used much (e.g. Endurance, Skill Focus: Lore). That's just the trade-off.

Now, when it comes to the WM specifically, the fact that Mobility and Spring Attack are less useful than in tabletop has more to do with NWN's metagame and the ubiquity of Tumble than anything else. In a system where your level 17+ Rog/Ftr can easily hit DC15 Tumble even in full plate and moreover is incentivised to do so by +4 dodge AC, then sure, Spring Attack is much less useful.

Now it's all well and good to suggest that these pre-reqs be changed, but by what, exactly? Bear in mind that if you choose certain pre-reqs that are cheap or easy to fulfill, then they effectively cease being pre-reqs -- if you were going to take Power Attack or Cleave anyway, then a Power Attack or Cleave pre-req is a freebie.

It would be easy to look at a weak PrC and say, sure, let's soften these pre-reqs with a few freebies. But I've never heard it said that Weapon Master was a weak PrC -- indeed in my experience it's usually quite a killer class, both in PvE (admittedly only against non-undead, but still, there's plenty of stuff that's not immune to crits to kill) and in PvP. In my own estimation, Weapon Master is the no-brainer power-builder's option for a Rog/Ftr. Sure, not every Rog/Ftr is going to go down that path, but enough do that I don't see it as a no-brainer that needs to be made easier, that needs a softening of pre-reqs.

So if we're going to discuss potential pre-req changes, then let's think hard about actual pre-req equivalents that don't soften them.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 05:54:30 PM by aprogressivist »
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― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo