Author Topic: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)  (Read 631 times)

becat

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Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« on: February 13, 2019, 07:26:02 PM »
This may seem to be a strange hill to start a battle upon but I have been thinking about it for some time and would like to see Cure Minor Wounds (CMW) changed to fit the 3.5 description. That is, to make the spell cure only 1 hit-point, rather than NWN's arbitrary 4 hit-points.

For reference, here are two links to the spell descriptions as exists in the 3.5 ruleset and in Neverwinter Nights:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureMinorWounds.htm
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Cure_minor_wounds

My reasoning is as follows:
  • Firstly, Virtue, another cantrip, is rendered utterly useless by CMW. Virtue provides only 1 temporary hit-point in comparison to CMW's assured 4 healed. Even on a level 2 PC, there is no reason to value that 1THP next to a certain 4. I cannot think of a circumstance where 1THP is more valuable than healing 4 post-encounter. Bringing CMW in line with the 3.5 description would make a mixture of both spells a reliable tactic and prompting some actual thought in how cantrips are allocated on Druid and Cleric characters.
  • Secondly, the lowest, most minor heal should be just that, minimum. This is a cantrip of the smallest possible skill. 4HP as the smallest unit seems an arbitrary and elevated number and does not reflect that the spell is able to heal only the very smallest amount. There exists, no doubt, some roleplay utility in bringing this number down to the very smallest possible.
  • Thirdly, Cure Light Wounds (CLW) is able to actually heal less than CMW until the character reaches level 3, and is able to heal the same amount still at level 4. The internal logic here makes no sense; how does a spell of greater difficulty act weaker than a cantrip?
  • Finally, to reiterate, the 3.5 description actually lists this spell as only healing 1 hit-point. If the rules of this server strive to emulate the 3.5 set, then I think this should not be forgotten.


SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2019, 07:53:48 PM »
I read on the wiki that Clerics have one less spell slot per level, and I wonder if this balance change is related to that.

I would like to see other cantrips become more useful than CMW becoming fully unworthy of any cast, except to stabilise someone who's unconscious, which most do with potions anyway. Currently, I just have all slots on my level 10 Cleric as "Light" or "Resistance" but usually I don't have to use them, as glowing weapons/spells/equipment are a bit more common than one would expect starting at around level 5 or 6. This could be an indication of an economy issue.

What if CMW healed for 2, and Virtue gave 2 temporary hitpoints?

This would be a nerf to the Healing domain by making their cantrip heal 3 instead of 6 but probably not a huge deal. They might not feel worthy of hotbar slots at some point though. I already use cantrips very little, and considering a Cleric can start out with like 11 uses of Turn Undead and use the Sacred Healing feat at like, level 4 or 5 (not an expert on how skillpoints max out), this cantrip might become fully ignored.
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GeneralBonobo

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 07:59:04 PM »
So you want to make a useless spell remain useless by making another spell equally as useless?

Pav

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2019, 08:00:24 PM »
This seems like a non-issue, but if a developer thinks it's a good idea to spend their time on something so minor (get it?) then I won't be raising my pitchfork.
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TheFury

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2019, 08:09:27 PM »
Clerics have the spell slot removed because that extra slot is a domain slot--but there's no way to limit it in NWN, so it has been removed.

Most cantrips are entirely useless or have some small utility. 4 HP vs 1 will rarely make any difference in combat and will relegate yet another spell to the useless pile. Virtue is bad, but I'd rather see it become something someone might actually cast, rather than everyone ignoring CMW for the remainder of the game.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2019, 08:43:14 PM »
Quote
Thirdly, Cure Light Wounds (CLW) is able to actually heal less than CMW until the character reaches level 3, and is able to heal the same amount still at level 4. The internal logic here makes no sense; how does a spell of greater difficulty act weaker than a cantrip?

Not really true. The expected value on a CLW even at 1st level is 5.5 HP. It's true you could roll a 1 and get only 2 HP, but CLW will have a higher average.

As far as 4 versus 1, a justification I can see for having it 4 is that our PCs tend to have way more HP than standard PCs because of the max HP per level we receive.

I don't think this has  a very significant impact on gameplay at all either way, so if the Devs want to make it conform to 3.5...*shrugs*. I typically use mine to top off my PC before resting, rather than eating, to make sure she's at full strength after the rest.

It would probably affect spellcasters with fewer healing spells available, though, than your typical cleric (e.g. Bards).


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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2019, 03:15:57 AM »
Virtue is a great spell for lvl 1 & 2 when you're increasing your max HP instead of attempting to cast cure minor during combat, and you can memorise a full bar of virtue to sacrifice for cure minor and have the best of both.

It's a cantrip, what more do you expect from it?
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becat

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2019, 12:47:57 AM »
Virtue is a great spell for lvl 1 & 2 when you're increasing your max HP instead of attempting to cast cure minor during combat, and you can memorise a full bar of virtue to sacrifice for cure minor and have the best of both.

It's a cantrip, what more do you expect from it?

You're right, Virtue has its uses, but it's vastly overshadowed. A level 2 cleric would have 16 base HP, which could be entirely healed with their cantrips, doesn't that seem strange? 1HP CMW would still have use as a stabilizing spell and in polishing off those last few missing points of health.

To the question I must say that Cure Minor Wounds is also only a cantrip. Why should we accept and expect more from one spell over the other? Either Virtue should receive some boosting or CMW should receive some limitation, and since this server seems so heavily attracted to 3.5 rules (seeing the Blackguard skill discussion), I thought this would be a more acceptable solution.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2019, 01:59:12 AM »
You're right, Virtue has its uses, but it's vastly overshadowed. A level 2 cleric would have 16 base HP, which could be entirely healed with their cantrips, doesn't that seem strange? 1HP CMW would still have use as a stabilizing spell and in polishing off those last few missing points of health.

To the question I must say that Cure Minor Wounds is also only a cantrip. Why should we accept and expect more from one spell over the other? Either Virtue should receive some boosting or CMW should receive some limitation, and since this server seems so heavily attracted to 3.5 rules (seeing the Blackguard skill discussion), I thought this would be a more acceptable solution.

We accept and expect that spells will never be exactly equal because that's just a fact of design. Ideally, each has its situational uses.

More to the point, I don't think the relative strength of Virtue is a good peg to hang your argument on. Bards don't receive Virtue, and consequently CMW is all they have. In contrast, Paladins have Virtue...at the same level as Cure Light Wounds. Using the same logic you've employed, then, CLW also needs to be nerfed.

That the spell doesn't conform to 3.5 rules is an arguable reason to change it, although not everything on POTM follows 3.5 rules to the letter. The Virtue comparison, however, is specious.

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becat

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2019, 02:08:29 AM »
We accept and expect that spells will never be exactly equal because that's just a fact of design. Ideally, each has its situational uses.

More to the point, I don't think the relative strength of Virtue is a good peg to hang your argument on. Bards don't receive Virtue, and consequently CMW is all they have. In contrast, Paladins have Virtue...at the same level as Cure Light Wounds. Using the same logic you've employed, then, CLW also needs to be nerfed.

That the spell doesn't conform to 3.5 rules is an arguable reason to change it, although not everything on POTM follows 3.5 rules to the letter. The Virtue comparison, however, is specious.

Yes, fair point that spells are unequal, even within the same spell level. When these two are so explicitly identical in power in the base ruleset and the situational power of one is rendered entirely underwhelming by the other, however, it stands to reason that this not be ignored.

It is one peg of an argument among three others. I only reply in its defense since that seems to be the attention of the replies.

I think the argument of strengthening Virtue is improved by your Paladin point, and I accept that. Why would any Paladin cast Virtue when having access to CLW? I would happily accept that as the direction of the thread instead.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2019, 02:50:51 AM »
I've always been one to think reactive and risky spells should be more useful overall. But at the cantrip level, I don't think there's enough room to work with. Even if Virtue becomes a temporary 2HP, it's still going to be half as effective as CMW's healing, and that's fine, because someone else had to heal you, or you had to avoid attacks.

It won't change gameplay much, but it might bring it in line with the other cantrips.
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HopeIsTheCarrot

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2019, 08:04:26 AM »
I have a hard time understanding why we are having a lengthy debate on gameplay balance in relation to a cantrip spell... Even at level 2, I've never found any of the cantrip spells to be particularly impactful or deserving a gameplay balance discussion. I think our time would be better suited focusing on weightier gameplay balance deliberations. But thats just my opinion, if there are really that many people who are passionate about CMW then have at it.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2019, 03:50:18 PM »
I have a hard time understanding why we are having a lengthy debate on gameplay balance in relation to a cantrip spell... Even at level 2, I've never found any of the cantrip spells to be particularly impactful or deserving a gameplay balance discussion. I think our time would be better suited focusing on weightier gameplay balance deliberations. But thats just my opinion, if there are really that many people who are passionate about CMW then have at it.

I'm not passionate about it :)

Sometimes people seem to think I just like to argue--and maybe I do!--but really I feel that it's worse to say something and no one listen or have it ignored than to have someone disagree with or question you.

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Dud_Goose

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Re: Cure Minor Wounds (CMW)
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2019, 08:25:11 AM »
I don't think it's irrelevant.  On plenty of occasions it has made the difference in stabilizing downed characters when there aren't any other options.

That said, I disagree with anything which further impacts clerics for the worse.  They got rare enough after the domain slot change.
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