Author Topic: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules  (Read 10923 times)

MJ_Johansson

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2020, 05:14:13 AM »
I feel confused why this has sparked such a lively debate.. Corpse hiding and bounties have been a thing as long as I've been here. And in the time I have, the times I've been affected by not-legit PvP the team handled it quickly and efficiently as long as proof was provided to them.

If you can't prove it wasnt legit, that means you just suspect or assume it wasnt. And it will be up to the DM team to find out for sure if you report it.

If you dont want PvP dont oppose other players or break the laws. If you dont want a character to suffer the consequences of being an outcast in Barovia, dont play a character that would be considered an outcast to the very xenophobic Barovians.
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Nearyn

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2020, 05:15:29 AM »
You're getting a bit too agressive here.

I appreciate that it seems that way. That's my bad. This is a typical issue of not being able to communicate tone in text. I assure you none of that is mean to be read in an aggressive tone. I'm only engaging with the points being made.

I am being direct and I am discussing something serious, and that does lend itself to coming off very aggressive.

I will see what I can do to better communicate my intended tone.

If you think that current system is unacceptable, what is the alternative you're proposing?

I don't have a binder with a finished pitch for you  ;), but I have already provided suggestions for what I think should be key in a new system. Consent-driven, RP-driven PVP, to complement the RP-focused server. And identified elements that I think need to go, or at the very least see major overhauls.

But I don't think it's my job to provide a fully realized alternative either. This thread is to point a spotlight on the insufficiency of the current rules, and encourage we have a look at the rules again. I fully agree with Nepharian on that, and I've provided my input as to why I think it is important we do so.

Though if the task of making a new system was put to the players, I would very happily participate in its development. In a way, we're already doing so by engaging in this conversation.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 05:34:01 AM by Nearyn »
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Nemesis 24

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2020, 05:16:32 AM »


Nemesis 24


Certain people will not be stopped unless they are made to stop.

They will be insistent on performing actions of extreme harm to another characters purview of importance and they will not stop.  Not from a slap on the wrist.  Not from a polite working out.  Not from any measure of roleplay measures.  They will not stop.  They will only feel justified.  They will not halt unless they are halted, they will continue to perform their actions because their goal is to win.

Then we adjust the rules so as to have those people made to stop. I don't care how persistent their petulance is. I don't care that they're here to win. That is not a good excuse to just let the system stand. That is the exact argument for taking a hammer to it. And rebuilding it so it addresses the issues presented by the presence of these toxic jerks.

I totally agree with you that people exist that won't be stopped by a slap on the wrist, or RP consequences, but why in the name of my bonnie blue blazer should the burden of acceptance of consequences, fall on the people victimized by their gross behavior. Rather than on the selfish jerks who think they're too good to ask for another player's  buy-in?

That's not the kind of rules I want to argue for. And it is certainly not the kind of server culture I want to help perpetuate.

To be clear, I'm not talking about griefers.  Nor am I talking about victims.

I am talking about 'wrongdoers and do-gooders,' who are doing extremely evil things, or extremely good things.  Say to PC's, or NPC's.  There are good aligned characters and evil characters, and others besides, who have reason in character to -not- let such actions stand.  They are obligated by the very nature of their character (certain faith clerics, paladins, blackguards all spring to mind) to act.  I say both sides, but in particular I speak of evil aligned characters.

Good aligned characters are often quite literally obligated to act on the evil actions of a character.  They might vacillate on the matter somewhat, find a measure to stop going too far.  But eventually short of not playing their character, they must act against an evil character.  To ignore this, to allow the evil doer to continually act and either do nothing about it or do actions that you -know- they will return from and rather shortly to -continue- to do more harm to others, is basically nothing short of insanity.

This is but an example.  But again, I'm not talking about griefers, or victims.  Sometimes, people need to be stopped.  In order for someone to be true to their character, it has to happen.  Its not fair but at that point this is high stakes.    You pick a fight, you start a fight, you opt into conflict, you better be damn sure you're going to win it, or secure.  If you are not, thats just on you.  No one else.  No one is obligated to play to another persons standards, especially if that person is the instigator.


EDIT:  I should specify.  Again, even as a conflict orientated character, I did not go for corpse hiding.  I found ways out of it, as much as possible.  But the measure needs to remain there.  There are, were, and will be circumstances where it -must- be taken.  The trouble may well be the 'frequency' it happens.  But that is a matter of both sides in many cases.  If you don't corpse hide yourself, you are USUALLY quite likely not to have it happen yourself.  But don't cry foul if you either doing it or associated with those that do. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 05:32:32 AM by Nemesis 24 »

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2020, 07:10:10 AM »
I'm not keen on adding my $0.02 to this, because reading through this thread so far hasn't exactly left me feeling like there's a great deal of empathy amongst a certain contingent of players. But I'll stick my head in this noose anyway, so ... kick away the chair, hangman, I'm dead anyway.

Firstly: I agree in large parts with what Naeryn said earlier in this thread. Not 100 percent but very nearly. I would like to add something, however, for clarification.

People say "This is Ravenloft" as if that should, by definition, give them carte blanche to act as right royal jerks to other people. It is often followed, whether here on the board or in conversations on the server or on discord, by those same people stating that "there are already rules in place" and "you have to be openly antagonistic to someone for it to be justified"

And I call horsemanure -right- there.

A level 17+ character can waltz right into the temple of the morninglord outside Vallaki, antagonize and threaten a newbie at level 2, 3 or 4 and make their lives utterly -miserable-. I have had that happen to me as a relatively new player on the server, in fact.

In such a situation:

1: My character was not antagonizing anyone. She was -being- antagonized by someone so far beyond her in level that if they had -sneezed- in her direction she'd have dropped over perma-dead.

2: My only recourse to -not- getting antagonized would have been to not respond when spoken to.

While in this specific situation I did not end up getting PvP'd, it has resulted in me shunning the player responsible like the plague. What I am trying to say is that In essense, a high level griefer can, AT ANY POINT, engineer a situation which will result in anyone on the server becoming a legitimate target as the rules are now. I would venture that I could, in less than five minutes of typing, construct a situation which would allow my character to kill any single PC I come across on the server through some form of perceived insult. It isn't easy, and it's something griefers are infamously skilled at doing. That way, once the kill has been completed, they can lean back happy in the knowledge that they have just made another human being absoluely miserable, with no chance of them being called out on it and with no chance if the decision being reversed.

You can quite literally find manuals online, teaching you how to do grief people in such a way if you know where to look!

I am in favour of PvP existing. I want to underscore that with a line a yard wide. I think it is necessary, because if no PvP option existing an entirely -different- form of griefing would rise like a rotting, decrepit phoenix from the ashes. One where "What're you going to do to stop me? Huh huh huh huh huh huh huh?"-style, schoolyard bullying would quickly become an uncontrollable problem.

But I've been on this server for about two months now, and I've already come across -far- too many players who have lost characters to out-and-out griefers, to bullies and to the ... yes, I'm going to say it because my neck is already in the noose ... the apparent indifference of the DM-corps. Now, I don't WANT to believe the DMs are indifferent. My interactions with them so far have been nothing but pleasant ... but even if I apply an entire year's production of Pakistani salt to it ... I still have to say that some of these stories are -really- disconcerting.

Really, -really- troubling ...

And that's in two months.

If your entire raison d'être is to PvP other people's characters, whether all they want to do is stay well and truly clear of that sort of thing or not, my honest, personal opinion is that you severely need to reevaluate your people-skills. If it is so difficult to show that -tiny- bit of consideration to your fellow players that you don't abuse a rules system which, currently, lets you create a character that can basically go around killing low-level characters for fun, then you've got problems that need addressing.

Pure and simple.

And at the moment, whether people like to admit it or not, the rules -do- allow for that. Griefing happens. You might not like it. That doesn't make it any less real.

I hope the review is going to put an end to that.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 07:16:40 AM by ClosedGame »

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2020, 07:13:05 AM »
I think it's important to remember there's always two sides to every story, and that the CC offer arbitration between players if things get contentious.

Kleomenes

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2020, 07:50:42 AM »
Without wanting to comment on the specifics that I am ignorant of, with regards to the ML temple in the outskirts, not only are there NPCs present but there is an active PC faction too, so if people are getting trouble there, there is an IC recourse for "help".

While I take the point of those without allies being vulnerable compared to the more established, I know also there's a few goodies who go to great lengths to help offset IC injustices, including those against relative strangers.

Nemesis 24

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #106 on: January 16, 2020, 08:13:37 AM »
I think its warrants making a mention on this one as well; there are quite a few newer people posting in this, who may have come from other servers.  Server that quite likely have much lighter consequence levels than what this place does.  I would beg you, each of you, to dispose of the preconceptions that such light consequences might have created, both in what you believe is warranted consequence 'and' what you think is opting into conflict.  This is a dangerous, high intrigue, high stakes setting where for some people, the wrong knowledge in the wrong hands can have staggering consequences, which I have seen many times.

As someone who came from another place once before, learning this was hard.  I even occasionally have a hot flash of irrationality and go 'hey that's not fair!' at stuff that happens, but when I cool down, its not hard to see that fair or unfair isn't actually whats important.  What is important is the narrative.

I was bountied on a character for a significant amount for nearly two years of playing a character.  My character was a notorious individual, not for doing the wrong thing, but for doing the right thing.  The 'Zachary the Blackguard' jokes continue to this day because of it. 

I managed to survive for this time, and as it went on, it imparted some important lessons.  At one point, I was left with no choice but to cut down another PC, and hand them into the garda - a very wanted criminal who had done some truly heinous acts.  After that, I never corpsed anyone again with the full intent to do so, and even raised a few that I had to.  This was for two reasons; one, it fit the narrative.  Two, it continued the narrative.

This is, in fact, always an option.  Let me repeat that.  It is always an option to refrain from corpse hiding and continue the narrative.  It should be the first option.  It is the first option, to each and every one of you.  Everyone posting in this thread and reading in it.  Its even in the rules.  Instances where it has not been the case has been dealt with, and reversed, time and time again.  The DM team is not indifferent.  They simply have a strict policy of closed doors for rulings, but never ever think they are indifferent.  They always take these things seriously.  They just can't give the reasoning -many- times in these instances.  Its difficult.  Its hard.  But giving reasoning is very often a pathway for investigative meta to find out how things got to that point, who is responsible, and who takes blame.  For the sake of halting OOC recrimination that absolutely has been proven to have happened before, they must handle these matters with tact.  But it is never indifference.  I say this as a person who has had rulings for and against, and plenty rightly against.  Acceptance of an adjudicator is a necessary act of playing on this server, or any other.  The DM rule is final and you must abide by it, like it or not.  We ALL do.  But never think the DM team doesn't honestly get burned out from having to make these decisions and other hard choices.

Corpse hiding is a last resort.  For some it is taken as a resort far too early on the list.  For others, it is fully and completely within their character rationale to do so.  For yet others, it is an act of absolute survival.  But the fact it exists is also important.  It needs to exist, it needs to be something people are fully aware of.  If it doesn't, IC behaviour will adjust to match OOC knowledge, and first amongst those will be the affect the knowledge of effective immortality until you choose otherwise will have on gameplay.

But something I think we need to let go of is this mixture of incorrect perception, bad preconception, and bad word of mouth.

Incorrect perception involves consequences.  Servers like Arelith operate on a slap of the wrist mentality.  This place doesn't.  It is designed around that, it is a very firm basis of that, and it is not something I or many of us want changed.  It is deeply important to maintain this level of consequence.  Other servers do not and frankly, there are plenty of them.  This one does it differently.  Rather than fight that, learn to understand it.  And I say this as someone who used to think -just- like you do, but now I'd count myself as one of the staunchest defenders of a system that, I remind you, I do all I can not to use.  But I absolutely give thanks that it is.  It is absolutely necessary to uphold gravitas.  I don't want a light hearted, low consequence server.  If that is what others want, I am truly sorry to say we are at odds on the matter.  Because I don't have a single personal grievance with the folks in this thread, and I genuinely want to interact with more of you.  Especially you ClosedGame!  I want to bump into your kender some time, I think it'd be fun.  I count myself as one of the (seemingly few? :( ) people who think they're great.

Bad preconception stems from bad play.  One of the worst things you can ever say, that can ever pop into your head, is the words, 'others do it, so I can too.'  Do not.  I really, truly beg you, do not.  Don't go down that road, don't let yourself believe that.  I cannot emphasis this enough, I'll repeat it over and over.  Don't let that be your mantra. 

There are players who are valued, truly valued, for their ability to engage a narrative even if it is one they most likely cannot win.  I want to point out players such as Dread, Wrak, Halvor, LancerFreya, and more besides but they spring to mind.  They take high risks, and they can lose on those risks.  Of particular and EXTREMELY RELEVANT NOTE, with regards to the antagonists of the Degannwy defense story, is the fact the antagonists have on multiple occasions struck down the defenders, and corpsed them.  They have kept them dead for a short time then, each time, raised them as zombies and sent them at the defenders.  Gruesome!  Heinous!  And those players were back in the story as soon as they wanted to be.  The antagonists are outnumbered in this plot more than ten to one, and yet they have not removed by force a -single- person from the plot.  This should not be the exception.  This should be the standard.  But that is on all of us.

Do keep in mind that each of these players know, that they could and likely 'will' be shut down hard by this stories end.   Its staggeringly high risk.  They are doing it however for the narrative, for the server, and they have in doing so created a truly spectacular organised counter effort that they have every right to be proud of being the instigator of.  Its exceptional and I applaud them for it.  Never forget that without them, we would be standing around in the Mist Camp or outskirts asking why we're so bored.  When they are gone, that ends.  Do we really want that?  Is a quick victory actually worth that, if there is even a chance we can do something different?


A bit off topic, but the end result of this particular tangent is this; if you don't want to be corpse hidden yourself, one thing that is important is learning to walk the walk.  If you are quick to do it, if you are working with those quick to do it, you have no excuse not to expect it in return - or far less than you might think.  This goes back as well to an earlier post;  if you start a fight, you do not have the luxury of complaining if you start to lose.  That's the risk -you- took.  The fact you didn't contemplate what might come is your own shortcoming.  Take what you can from it, and learn instead. 

Bad word of mouth is something that's already been touched upon.  People lose in these conflicts.  It happens.  It unfortunately needs to happen.  Despite the investment, despite all the time, sometimes someone has to lose.  Sometimes they start it, sometimes they don't, tragically they can get swept along.  But there needs to be a loser.  Otherwise some conflicts roll around literally forever, and this isn't a server for that.  In order to keep things moving, in order to keep things fresh, this mechanic must exist.  It needs to be, to put an end to those who cannot, will not, and refuse to stop.  It also must exist so that there are consequences.  That fear, the underpinning theme of the entire setting, is maintained.  So actions are made carefully, not recklessly because there is a safety net.  It exists as a last resort, not a first resort.  But it must exist.  For the maintaining of the integrity of the narrative, the seriousness, the desperate level of the stakes, and the grim nature of the setting, -it must exist-.  I say that knowing I can be taken out because of it.  I have spent five years playing my main, and it could all end tomorrow forever, despite playing him constantly.  He could go to an attack from a conflict I may not even be fully aware of, one that I am fully aware of and live in constant worry about, or he could cease to exist because Soren pulled the plug.  That is the reality.  Those are the stakes.  Its not easy, but please remember we are all of in that same boat.  Heck, most of the people in this thread defending the system have been right where you are.  All of us have had rulings against us that saw us lose big, maybe years of investment and work.  That's the game we've chosen to play.  Its a great game, a scary game, but please don't ask us to change it into something with a heavy overshadowing of meaninglessness of action.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 08:27:11 AM by Nemesis 24 »

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #107 on: January 16, 2020, 08:22:08 AM »
I hope the review is going to put an end to that.

It wont.

Firstly, you have to be antagonistic for it to be justified refers to corpse hiding, read the thread, if its over words that's excessive and should be reported to a DM. Corpse hiding occurs in situations where the repeated return of a foe would destroy story progression.



This is incorrect. I can think of more instances of corpse hiding than I have fingers were the victim was hid regardless of how 'antagonistic' they were. If you're getting ganked, you're getting hid. It doesn't matter in the least what role you played in it.

Pav

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #108 on: January 16, 2020, 08:31:00 AM »
yeah because getting up and running to the nearest authorities to get the other person killed and corpsehid is real fun dude lol

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #109 on: January 16, 2020, 08:42:21 AM »
Nemesis and Sloth serving some hot tea, +1

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #110 on: January 16, 2020, 08:43:23 AM »
I agree with you Nemesis, most of us are here is the harshness and the difficulty of the server, it's challenging and that makes it interesting.

But be rules more harsh or less, people won't easily accept a lose or see it as fun if they didn't 100% opted in. And that's what is I, personally, wish a change for this.
Not for me, but for others to still feel good and treat a 'loss' appropriately.

From my personal experience, most of pvp i've engaged in became a burden, either in fishing of a slightest thing i violated, or random discussions, or hate. It's bothering, it makes me wish to avoid any conflict - and not that I fear of a loss, but the next issues i dont' wish to deal with, after it.
I wish everyone to have a good time and be relaxed ooc, and not worry of the sudden loss of their char they involved time in all the time they're logged in.
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2020, 08:45:25 AM »
I agree with you Nemesis, most of us are here is the harshness and the difficulty of the server, it's challenging and that makes it interesting.

But be rules more harsh or less, people won't easily accept a lose or see it as fun if they didn't 100% opted in. And that's what is I, personally, wish a change for this.
Not for me, but for others to still feel good and treat a 'loss' appropriately.

From my personal experience, most of pvp i've engaged in became a burden, either in fishing of a slightest thing i violated, or random discussions, or hate. It's bothering, it makes me wish to avoid any conflict - and not that I fear of a loss, but the next issues i dont' wish to deal with, after it.
I wish everyone to have a good time and be relaxed ooc, and not worry of the sudden loss of their char they involved time in all the time they're logged in.

If you perform any kind of PvP action, you're opting in. That's a given. If you don't want that burden, you need to avoid hostile situations or potentially hostile ones at that.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #112 on: January 16, 2020, 08:53:42 AM »
I agree with you Nemesis, most of us are here is the harshness and the difficulty of the server, it's challenging and that makes it interesting.

But be rules more harsh or less, people won't easily accept a lose or see it as fun if they didn't 100% opted in. And that's what is I, personally, wish a change for this.
Not for me, but for others to still feel good and treat a 'loss' appropriately.

From my personal experience, most of pvp i've engaged in became a burden, either in fishing of a slightest thing i violated, or random discussions, or hate. It's bothering, it makes me wish to avoid any conflict - and not that I fear of a loss, but the next issues i dont' wish to deal with, after it.
I wish everyone to have a good time and be relaxed ooc, and not worry of the sudden loss of their char they involved time in all the time they're logged in.

If you perform any kind of PvP action, you're opting in. That's a given. If you don't want that burden, you need to avoid hostile situations or potentially hostile ones at that.

I'm all right about 'opting in' , the burden i find are the things that follows , I wrote them.
"potentially hostile ones at that." - if you're mentioning that specific incident - ic'ly i 'opted in' , I didn't hostiled but i wasn't hostiled either, despite me 'opting in' , ic'ly, publicly. - but this is past.  let's keep it general ok ? I keep it generally. I care for others and for everyone to feel great, I said.
Th'rar
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2020, 08:55:49 AM »
I agree with you Nemesis, most of us are here is the harshness and the difficulty of the server, it's challenging and that makes it interesting.

But be rules more harsh or less, people won't easily accept a lose or see it as fun if they didn't 100% opted in. And that's what is I, personally, wish a change for this.
Not for me, but for others to still feel good and treat a 'loss' appropriately.

From my personal experience, most of pvp i've engaged in became a burden, either in fishing of a slightest thing i violated, or random discussions, or hate. It's bothering, it makes me wish to avoid any conflict - and not that I fear of a loss, but the next issues i dont' wish to deal with, after it.
I wish everyone to have a good time and be relaxed ooc, and not worry of the sudden loss of their char they involved time in all the time they're logged in.

If you perform any kind of PvP action, you're opting in. That's a given. If you don't want that burden, you need to avoid hostile situations or potentially hostile ones at that.

I'm all right about 'opting in' , the burden i find are the things that follows , I wrote them.
"potentially hostile ones at that." - if you're mentioning that specific incident - ic'ly i 'opted in' , I didn't hostiled but i wasn't hostiled either, despite me 'opting in' , ic'ly, publicly. - but this is past.  let's keep it general ok ? I keep it generally. I care for others and for everyone to feel great, I said.

I'm not mentioning anything specific, just a general statement. To avoid PvP and it's repercussions, avoid antagonistic play or anything that may eventually lead to a PvP action.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #114 on: January 16, 2020, 09:01:42 AM »
I agree with you Nemesis, most of us are here is the harshness and the difficulty of the server, it's challenging and that makes it interesting.

But be rules more harsh or less, people won't easily accept a lose or see it as fun if they didn't 100% opted in. And that's what is I, personally, wish a change for this.
Not for me, but for others to still feel good and treat a 'loss' appropriately.

From my personal experience, most of pvp i've engaged in became a burden, either in fishing of a slightest thing i violated, or random discussions, or hate. It's bothering, it makes me wish to avoid any conflict - and not that I fear of a loss, but the next issues i dont' wish to deal with, after it.
I wish everyone to have a good time and be relaxed ooc, and not worry of the sudden loss of their char they involved time in all the time they're logged in.

If you perform any kind of PvP action, you're opting in. That's a given. If you don't want that burden, you need to avoid hostile situations or potentially hostile ones at that.

I'm all right about 'opting in' , the burden i find are the things that follows , I wrote them.
"potentially hostile ones at that." - if you're mentioning that specific incident - ic'ly i 'opted in' , I didn't hostiled but i wasn't hostiled either, despite me 'opting in' , ic'ly, publicly. - but this is past.  let's keep it general ok ? I keep it generally. I care for others and for everyone to feel great, I said.

I'm not mentioning anything specific, just a general statement. To avoid PvP and it's repercussions, avoid antagonistic play or anything that may eventually lead to a PvP action.

I don't want to be disrespectful, really.
I don't want to upset you at all....but why you commented that 'general statement' as a reply to my post ...?  I specified a thing which isn't related to a fear of entering in PVP but of the outcomes after it (various ooc actions and a party's upsetness)
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #115 on: January 16, 2020, 09:08:23 AM »
I agree with you Nemesis, most of us are here is the harshness and the difficulty of the server, it's challenging and that makes it interesting.

But be rules more harsh or less, people won't easily accept a lose or see it as fun if they didn't 100% opted in. And that's what is I, personally, wish a change for this.
Not for me, but for others to still feel good and treat a 'loss' appropriately.

From my personal experience, most of pvp i've engaged in became a burden, either in fishing of a slightest thing i violated, or random discussions, or hate. It's bothering, it makes me wish to avoid any conflict - and not that I fear of a loss, but the next issues i dont' wish to deal with, after it.
I wish everyone to have a good time and be relaxed ooc, and not worry of the sudden loss of their char they involved time in all the time they're logged in.

If you perform any kind of PvP action, you're opting in. That's a given. If you don't want that burden, you need to avoid hostile situations or potentially hostile ones at that.

I'm all right about 'opting in' , the burden i find are the things that follows , I wrote them.
"potentially hostile ones at that." - if you're mentioning that specific incident - ic'ly i 'opted in' , I didn't hostiled but i wasn't hostiled either, despite me 'opting in' , ic'ly, publicly. - but this is past.  let's keep it general ok ? I keep it generally. I care for others and for everyone to feel great, I said.

I'm not mentioning anything specific, just a general statement. To avoid PvP and it's repercussions, avoid antagonistic play or anything that may eventually lead to a PvP action.

I don't want to be disrespectful, really.
I don't want to upset you at all....but why you commented that 'general statement' as a reply to my post ...?  I specified a thing which isn't related to a fear of entering in PVP but of the outcomes after it (various ooc actions and a party's upsetness)

Because it does link to your post. It's advice on what you can do to avoid such burdens in the future. I'm not upset at all, I'm just explaining your options. Both the fear of entering PvP and the Repercussions of it are what I am mentioning. by no means is this me targeting you, just offering helpful advice you can choose to take if you wish in the future. Regardless, if you -do- enter PvP, there can be burdens, especially to those who are already uncomfortable with the topic. But there are a multitude of ways to avoid it as well. If you don't wish for the outcomes to occur, it's best to avoid it in general altogether.

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #116 on: January 16, 2020, 09:16:20 AM »
Nearyn: Again, the topic is not a moral one, so approaching it from a religious pulpit in which real-world morality applies is an error. In a game, the only objective immorality should be well-defined: cheating.

I like the phrase "accommodating all play styles," which Mailbox (I think) used. Consider a band that collaborates to create music together, rather than stories.

The musicians hone their talents, are devoted to their arts, and spend many years practicing. When it comes time to play together, to keep the participation of them all, each must have some worthwhile contribution to make. When the music is selected, each member can advocate for that music which might showcase her talent. If my specialty is cowbell, I may want more cowbell-oriented pieces. If I don't get my way, regardless of how much time I put into becoming the world's best cowbell player, then I can be disappointed. I can even choose to leave over my disappointment. If I want to be thoughtful, nonjudgmental person, however, I don't take this as indicative of the moral character of those who disagree with me. I don't call them "unhealthy" (which is how you characterized any gaming table in which your personal standards of gameplay weren't followed).

Now a story.

Once upon a time a new player started on POTM. This player cultivated an OOC relationship with me. She started needy, and I helped her a lot to learn the game and to develop her character. Although I think online relationships are seldom true friendships, she began to treat it as one.

She would confide in me what her PC was up to. And I watched as she became more and more aggressive with other PCs as hers grew in power. She would openly boast and threaten others. Twice other players told me to warn her to back off. She ignored the passed on warnings and was pretty insulting to me about them.

Perhaps I don't need to tell you what happened. She challenged one of the best PvPers on the server and lost. Even so, this other PC showed her mercy.

And she went right back to her aggressive play style. Eventually when she became hunted, she left the server because of grievance. She began to worry she was going to get perma'd and blamed the server culture.

The story may be true; it may be made up; I may have totally mis-characterized what happened. But that is the same boat we all are in when we listen to stories from other players. You don't know whether what I'm telling you is how it really happened.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 09:22:33 AM by Iridni Ren »

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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #117 on: January 16, 2020, 09:17:35 AM »
I agree with you Nemesis, most of us are here is the harshness and the difficulty of the server, it's challenging and that makes it interesting.

But be rules more harsh or less, people won't easily accept a lose or see it as fun if they didn't 100% opted in. And that's what is I, personally, wish a change for this.
Not for me, but for others to still feel good and treat a 'loss' appropriately.

From my personal experience, most of pvp i've engaged in became a burden, either in fishing of a slightest thing i violated, or random discussions, or hate. It's bothering, it makes me wish to avoid any conflict - and not that I fear of a loss, but the next issues i dont' wish to deal with, after it.
I wish everyone to have a good time and be relaxed ooc, and not worry of the sudden loss of their char they involved time in all the time they're logged in.

If you perform any kind of PvP action, you're opting in. That's a given. If you don't want that burden, you need to avoid hostile situations or potentially hostile ones at that.

I'm all right about 'opting in' , the burden i find are the things that follows , I wrote them.
"potentially hostile ones at that." - if you're mentioning that specific incident - ic'ly i 'opted in' , I didn't hostiled but i wasn't hostiled either, despite me 'opting in' , ic'ly, publicly. - but this is past.  let's keep it general ok ? I keep it generally. I care for others and for everyone to feel great, I said.

I'm not mentioning anything specific, just a general statement. To avoid PvP and it's repercussions, avoid antagonistic play or anything that may eventually lead to a PvP action.

I don't want to be disrespectful, really.
I don't want to upset you at all....but why you commented that 'general statement' as a reply to my post ...?  I specified a thing which isn't related to a fear of entering in PVP but of the outcomes after it (various ooc actions and a party's upsetness)

Because it does link to your post. It's advice on what you can do to avoid such burdens in the future. I'm not upset at all, I'm just explaining your options. Both the fear of entering PvP and the Repercussions of it are what I am mentioning. by no means is this me targeting you, just offering helpful advice you can choose to take if you wish in the future. Regardless, if you -do- enter PvP, there can be burdens, especially to those who are already uncomfortable with the topic. But there are a multitude of ways to avoid it as well. If you don't wish for the outcomes to occur, it's best to avoid it in general altogether.

Exactly.
It's a thing everyone who is willing to avoid eirher a loss, either the repercussions are doing. "Don't opt in", "causal rp", "don't join in conflicts" as someone  above in this topic mentioned.
Why there is this option? Why people have to limit themselves? I'm about finding a solution so our choice won't be "don't opt in" but everyone to be relaxed, both on win or loss of the pvp.
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Re: On the PvP and Bounty/Assassination Rules
« Reply #118 on: January 16, 2020, 09:35:01 AM »
I think at this point this thread has served its purpose and its starting to go sour.

The development team are going forward with a change to the PVP rules, and working on putting in place scripted systems to support that. We hope that these changes will ameliorate some of the problems with PVP behaviour that have been identified here. I’d ask the community to please bear with us, help is on the way, and to be open and receptive to the changes when they do arrive.

If you are involved in a PVP situation which you think is in breach of the rules - any of them - please bring it to the attention of the DM Team. We look into every instance reported to us from all available angles, and determine whether any rules have been broken and what the best recourse is.
Our work in this respect is often silent for reasons of privacy, confidentiality and respect for all the parties involved.

We can only take actions on rule breaks we either witness ourselves, or are reported to us. We do not routinely monitor every single conflict in the server to ensure it is being conducted properly. You can contact a DM or CC member if you are unsure or uncomfortable about a PVP situation you are involved in and we can offer guidance about the rules and where to go. Please remember that only DMs can make ‘rulings’ about specific situations.

If you have a problem, please do not suffer in silence, or just chalk it up as ‘one of those things.’ Please tell someone, and we can do something about it.