Author Topic: "Going somewhere Giorgio?" Vistani Caravans Taking you to Neighbouring Domains  (Read 1928 times)

haifisch021

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The Blood of the Vine is overly large, with expansive corridors making inefficient use of space. It'd make more sense if wagons were regularly pulled through it, but... It's just far larger than it needs to be, with no cohesion in design. My thoughts.

Personally I think it makes sense for the Blood of the Vine to be overly large. It reminds me of a zombie survival PW I played a while ago. There's one big room where people (NPCs) congregate, crowding in that one room like refugees trying to hide from something, and the rest of the inn is pretty desolate and abandoned. It definitely feels a lot lonelier in there than in other inns around the Core and considering how empty and beaten-down the town is, this atmosphere is fitting. It definitely provides space for spooky encounters to occur at least!
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Tycat

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Two rooms, you mean. It also has a bar where a band plays full of npcs and you can change the music.

Silas Rotleaf

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This is true but to me it was always more of a refrigerator logic thing.
Sure you can go between domains on foot through mistways and donít ďneedĒ to use the caravan every time... but, if you are going to take the caravan... I just kind of like the structure of mist camp being as like your layover/stop terminal between flights kind of???

Ezras Outcast

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A guiding principle of the development of this module is and has always been maximizing player encounters, be it through travel routes, crafting hubs, and so on. As a result, although we have considered exactly this proposal (and others) internally in the past, we find that the current setup most creates the possibility for player interactions, including hostile ones.

I totally agree and think this is a great idea, apart from that the hostile actions namely PVP cant occur in the MC without a DM present and usually thats not available. So while there are interactions arn't they artificially hindered?

Arawn

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A guiding principle of the development of this module is and has always been maximizing player encounters, be it through travel routes, crafting hubs, and so on. As a result, although we have considered exactly this proposal (and others) internally in the past, we find that the current setup most creates the possibility for player interactions, including hostile ones.

I totally agree and think this is a great idea, apart from that the hostile actions namely PVP cant occur in the MC without a DM present and usually thats not available. So while there are interactions arn't they artificially hindered?

PvP can happen. Just not in front of the NPC. Itís a big area.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

Ezras Outcast

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For sure! But more often then not the NPC rules are taken advantage of and the victim or participant will move towards the NPCs to stay "safe" - Maybe since the camp is split in to two seperate areas the "entrance" area could maybe be made open PVP? Captain doesnt care unless hes affected?

Troukk

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I love this idea.

In fact, if you want to make the inter-domain caravan cost 200g and be twice as long I'd be fine with it. Just avoiding mist camp sounds fantastic.
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SardineTheAncestor

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For sure! But more often then not the NPC rules are taken advantage of and the victim or participant will move towards the NPCs to stay "safe" - Maybe since the camp is split in to two seperate areas the "entrance" area could maybe be made open PVP? Captain doesnt care unless hes affected?
Given the rules posted in their camp, I doubt the Captain would just ignore violence being done right in front of him. I can definitely see him subduing or killing both aggressors, considering it would be bad for their business. No one wants to see people getting murdered, not even hardened murderers, excepting psychopaths that revel casually in bloodshed.

Also, "entrance" and "open PVP" don't go together. I know it's possible in tons of areas, especially those with high-rises and obstacles surrounding a transition, but the idea that someone can just be waiting to kill you while you are getting kicked out of the caravan at an unexpected moment is especially troublesome. That's how we'll end up encouraging transition campers, and shoving those wanted people out of the Mist Camp, which is a whole new problem, according to many posters in this thread.
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EO

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People can PvP in the Arrival area of the Mist Camp; it's the main reason we split the camp in two areas in the first place.

Ezras Outcast

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Thank you for the confirmation!

Nemesis 24

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Bad for business?  The times I've seen it, its been good for business, as the Vistani either demand payment for disturbing the peace or get paid to look the other way.  They don't care about any of you after all.  Either way, good to confirm that the entrance is a place where PvP is allowed.

foxtale

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Entering the mist camp unbothered is as easy as wearing a mask and new full robe / armor.

I do not believe in changing your voice or gait for extended periods of time, but with how commonly adventurers wear masks just for aesthetics - and Halans literally never taking their veils off for religious reasons, it would be metagaming to see through such disguises in the little time it takes to hop from one wagon to the next. If you are wanted, just keep a low profile and screenshot in doubt.
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Iridni Ren

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Without ever testing other setups, isn't whether the MC is the "most optimal for player interactions" only a hunch?

Also, have you ever seen anyone claim the MC was the best place for high-quality RP on the server? Rather than just optimizing for number of interactions, the quality of those interactions is at least as important.

Even for PvP the RP at the MC is generally inferior because of all the factors discussed in the AMPC thread: lots of unconnected characters present, a need to strike quickly because of a lack of privacy and the potential for other PCs to arrive at any time, a flavorless setting that contributes almost nothing to the PC's potential closure story. Would anyone opt to have her PC closured at the MC versus some place more meaningful?

All that said, I think the MC is useful. Players can gather a party and have ready transportation to most of the server's dungeons. But in all honesty, this, too, leads to OOC behavior because of player desire to form strong groups that can conquer places like Sithicus. I see known evil people team up with paladins, and if you object, you get left out and are often viewed as the spoilsport.

I like having a place I can go to and signal I'm ready to dungeon. But when I'm doing something more IC, I'd like to be able to avoid such an artificial-feeling waypoint.

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The MC isnít as old as you might think.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Bad for business?  The times I've seen it, its been good for business, as the Vistani either demand payment for disturbing the peace or get paid to look the other way.  They don't care about any of you after all.
My line of thinking is, the law they posted on the sign says not to do it, so backing down on it is questionable. If they really don't care about anyone or their giorgio business, they'd just execute anyone doing it in their camp to keep things from escalating and threatening their own people needlessly.

I don't know if the Captain pursues aggressors, I'm still new, and I don't disagree with people PvPing there, but I mean, there is an armed guard right there. Naturally, I would go with what happens ingame; I don't think NPCs are smart enough to demand payment, but I'm unaware if the Captain is scripted to respond to people attacking each other by intervening in the fight. I think there's nothing wrong with him doing so if he does. If he does not, excuse my ignorance, I just saw other people mentioning that PvP can't happen in front of him and don't know the context of it.
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FinalHeaven

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Bad for business?  The times I've seen it, its been good for business, as the Vistani either demand payment for disturbing the peace or get paid to look the other way.  They don't care about any of you after all.
My line of thinking is, the law they posted on the sign says not to do it, so backing down on it is questionable. If they really don't care about anyone or their giorgio business, they'd just execute anyone doing it in their camp to keep things from escalating and threatening their own people needlessly.

I don't know if the Captain pursues aggressors, I'm still new, and I don't disagree with people PvPing there, but I mean, there is an armed guard right there. Naturally, I would go with what happens ingame; I don't think NPCs are smart enough to demand payment, but I'm unaware if the Captain is scripted to respond to people attacking each other by intervening in the fight. I think there's nothing wrong with him doing so if he does. If he does not, excuse my ignorance, I just saw other people mentioning that PvP can't happen in front of him and don't know the context of it.

The rule is that you're not allowed to PvP in front of an NPC without DM oversight.  You can absolutely PvP off in a corner away from NPCs. 

The Vistani however are notoriously greedy - or rumored to be, at the very least.  People have bribed them in the past to turn a blind eye to violence and it will happen again.  This is generally for violence in the main camp, but I've also witnessed the Captain clearly walking away just before a fight breaks out.  This all requires a DM, though.

Hallvor Hadiya

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While the discussion of the nature of the MC in of itself is fine, but the main bulk of the thread is about movement and allowing the players the choice to skip past it. Even if these changes are made, it is unlikely to replace the Mist Camp. It has too many conveniences to be ignored, a dedicated healer, shop, resting tent which is free of charge and easy access to all Domains(likely Blaustein would be only accessible from there even if this was implemented, due to it to being an island of terror same with Ghastria). This is for people who would otherwise wouldn't stop there for one reason or another.

But it also stops a theoretical problem, if I wanted to and knew someone was of a certain level and they were actively dungeoning I can simply wait for them at the mist camp, either to jump on a caravan after them or to wait for them to move towards the Vistani Camp transition out of the view of the NPC. And rogues certainly have this benefit when they can sneak onto your wagon. Realistically and thematically people of certain notoriety or disposition wouldn't go there, but due to the artificial nature of it, they must.

But, if we must discuss replacing the Mist Camp, you could probably pick a domain and have the Vistani camp proper near, greatly enriching the domains role-play and creation of roles within said community. Ghastria comes to mind, and it also makes sense as Vistani do move from one location to the next.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 01:50:00 AM by Hallvor Hadiya »
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Nemesis 24

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Sardine - do it in the main camp and you'll be absolutely destroyed by those present.  But the caravan captain in the outer camp will just ease on back and let you carry on.  The seperate camp is seperate precisely 'because' of that sort of thing so it can exist.  They don't attack aggressors.  Its not their business until it goes into the main camp.

As for this -

Without ever testing other setups, isn't whether the MC is the "most optimal for player interactions" only a hunch?

Also, have you ever seen anyone claim the MC was the best place for high-quality RP on the server? Rather than just optimizing for number of interactions, the quality of those interactions is at least as important.

Even for PvP the RP at the MC is generally inferior because of all the factors discussed in the AMPC thread: lots of unconnected characters present, a need to strike quickly because of a lack of privacy and the potential for other PCs to arrive at any time, a flavorless setting that contributes almost nothing to the PC's potential closure story. Would anyone opt to have her PC closured at the MC versus some place more meaningful?

All that said, I think the MC is useful. Players can gather a party and have ready transportation to most of the server's dungeons. But in all honesty, this, too, leads to OOC behavior because of player desire to form strong groups that can conquer places like Sithicus. I see known evil people team up with paladins, and if you object, you get left out and are often viewed as the spoilsport.

I like having a place I can go to and signal I'm ready to dungeon. But when I'm doing something more IC, I'd like to be able to avoid such an artificial-feeling waypoint.

I can say some of my best roleplay has taken place in the Mist Camp.  I didn't have the option to do it elsewhere, and it was, in truth, fantastic.  The fact it is 'neutral ground' is absolutely not to be overlooked, as there is in fact extremely little such ground anywhere in the server; and sometimes, such neutral ground is required.  To call or imply all of it that takes place there as bad is something of a disservice.  The difference between it and the Outskirts is enormous.

As for PvP, having taken part in quite a lot of it, I can say that PvP in the MC has never even remotely resembled the absolute debacle that is PvP in the outskirts, which is so chaotic as to be sheer noise.  If we're talking about about it being a place flavorless for closures, perhaps - but frankly, choosing where you closure smacks of predetermined PvP, rather than organic. 

On that note, if we had bypass areas, that were mini Vistani camps or simply guarded by local soldiers, then they would be 'dead zones' of PvP, where it'd be extremely difficult if not impossible due to NPC presence.  Its already difficult enough as it is to get PvP due to the limitations of NPC oversight as having a DM is difficult (which is just limitations of having real lives and expecting constant oversight just isn't fair)  which smacks of consequence avoidance to me.  It's already quite difficult to pursue PvP, the Mist Camp is one of the very few places where it is quite possible to engage in it.  Taking it away and avoiding it feels like weakening the danger of the setting, and the threat, and I'm personally always going to be against that.

As for paladins working with evil characters, always report that to a DM.  It's something for them to make judgements upon, and their ruling will decide it.


RedwizardD

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It would be nice if a second cart was available to address the issue of higher traffic.

SardineTheAncestor

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The rule is that you're not allowed to PvP in front of an NPC without DM oversight.  You can absolutely PvP off in a corner away from NPCs. 

The Vistani however are notoriously greedy - or rumored to be, at the very least.  People have bribed them in the past to turn a blind eye to violence and it will happen again.  This is generally for violence in the main camp, but I've also witnessed the Captain clearly walking away just before a fight breaks out.  This all requires a DM, though.
Sardine - do it in the main camp and you'll be absolutely destroyed by those present.  But the caravan captain in the outer camp will just ease on back and let you carry on.  The seperate camp is seperate precisely 'because' of that sort of thing so it can exist.  They don't attack aggressors.  Its not their business until it goes into the main camp.
That all sounds fair enough to me then, sorry about the confusion.

In terms of the closure argument - once again, never had a bountied or closured character, very new here. I would say it's up to the player to avoid going to the Mist Camp if they know their hunters might be found there, waiting for them, like anywhere else. If their character is privy to that information, and doesn't want to take the unnecessary risk, of course.
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Ezras Outcast

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The rule is that you're not allowed to PvP in front of an NPC without DM oversight.

I think that the Captain is the exception to the rule as per EO, I think.

People can PvP in the Arrival area of the Mist Camp; it's the main reason we split the camp in two areas in the first place.

fenixphire

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I love this idea.

In fact, if you want to make the inter-domain caravan cost 200g and be twice as long I'd be fine with it. Just avoiding mist camp sounds fantastic.

I can 100% see why you would like that, but then there wouldn't be things like when Saffron hopped in right behind you only to turn around as the doors close and see who she had gotten in with. It was a small interaction, but actually a bit significant for her, in its way.

I personally like MC, though, and have found myself talking with and playing with people I cam not sure I would have ever crossed paths with otherwise. If you don't have some kind of neutral ground, people are mostly going to keep within their same circles and domains, which would be a shame, imo.

HopeIsTheCarrot

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I can 100% see why you would like that, but then there wouldn't be things like when Saffron hopped in right behind you only to turn around
I personally like MC, though, and have found myself talking with and playing with people I cam not sure I would have ever crossed paths with otherwise. If you don't have some kind of neutral ground, people are mostly going to keep within their same circles and domains, which would be a shame, imo.

I also really like the Mist Camp as it exists now. I agree that an encampment of traveling Vistani doesnít really make the most sense for such an organized and seemingly permanent hub, however I think itís the worth the trade off for what goes on there. Itís the best and most authentic large scale meeting point I have seen in a long time. The Ladyís Rest and outskirts Church of the Morninglord used to be great places of congregating. But we have somewhat recently transitioned into this mindset of ďletís all just stand outside the city gates all night long and pretend like we arenít in Barovia.Ē So I would actually argue that the Mist Camp has a more authentic feel to it than the Outskirts, given the way so many players seem to disregard the night. I have seen solid role play based in extensive trading, crafting, and just sitting around the campfire, all of which would occur far less often without such a well established central hub.

Troukk

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I love this idea.

In fact, if you want to make the inter-domain caravan cost 200g and be twice as long I'd be fine with it. Just avoiding mist camp sounds fantastic.

I can 100% see why you would like that, but then there wouldn't be things like when Saffron hopped in right behind you only to turn around as the doors close and see who she had gotten in with. It was a small interaction, but actually a bit significant for her, in its way.

I personally like MC, though, and have found myself talking with and playing with people I cam not sure I would have ever crossed paths with otherwise. If you don't have some kind of neutral ground, people are mostly going to keep within their same circles and domains, which would be a shame, imo.

I think you guys are still confusing the point of the thread.

The OP is not calling for the elimination of the mist camp and neither am I. What is being proposed is to be able to pay a caravan that goes directly from one domain to a neighboring domain (like from barovia to hazlan).

I still think MC has it's uses as an adventuring hub, but there are non-adventuring focused characters (like the one I'm playing now) that would appreciate avoiding the unwanted attention of landing on a hub while travelling.
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King Pickle

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Burn the MC.

If your character is some kind of an outsider and fits nowhere in the domains... Welcome to the life of an outsider I guess. You still have to be somewhere.
If you can't initiate PvP elsewhere, that person probably doesn't want to roleplay with you... So you probably shouldn't roleplay with them.

Speaking of roleplay, all I hear there is: "Hello, we just cleared place X. Now we want to go to place Y. Has anyone cleared it recently?"


Oh and there's a shop too. The shop is nice.