Author Topic: Cheesy builds and the level rules  (Read 4751 times)

Iridni Ren

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2017, 12:37:07 AM »
Since it's allowed, you have to assume some people might experiment with it.

Is it a good strategy? In some cases, maybe, but developing good strategies is the mark of a good player. If it's a good strategy, it's one that requires upfront sacrifice, patience, and risk. You make your current character weaker in hopes of making your later character stronger. Punishing players for developing good strategies and taking risks...is that how a game should work?

Does it make for an unbalanced game? If any player can choose to do it, how is it unbalanced?

But!! If it does unbalance the game, then some way of prohibiting point banking is the way to address it because the 10-level rule doesn't.

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Iridni Ren

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2017, 01:19:14 AM »
Quote
I never said it eliminates it. I said it made it harder. Which you also agree with. Which is why I personally like the ruling.

Slightly harder. But if the 15-1 rogue dump is a game wrecker, then that slight increase in difficulty wouldn't stop a resourceful, determined player from going the path that gets her there.

A 15-1 fighter/rogue (Exordium's 16/1 would still be prohibited because she can't get five levels in rogue if she has 16 in fighter) ...is that head and shoulders above the 10 barbarian/ 5 fighter / 1 rogue now allowed?

(Exordium's example of a 19/1 fighter/wizard wouldn't be possible either.)

I listed all the builds that would be possible, and 15-1 is the greatest split. If a 15/1 fighter/wizard is a gamebreaker, then shouldn't a 10/5/1 barbarian/fighter/wizard be a gamebreaker as well?

Instead of continuing to harp on these possibilities that either don't sound all that attractive to me or are already allowed anyway in some form, please consider all the classes that have 9th circle spells: cleric, sorcerers, wizards, and druids.

To reach the highest circle in those classes you have to have 19 in your base stat by the level you are able to cast it, generally 17th. You get a stat boost at 4, 8, 12, and 16, meaning you have to start out with at least a 15 in that stat and then put every single point in that stat from then on.

You have to.

Suppose instead of going pure base class you would like to do a prestige class. Most of the time you're going to have to allocate some of your other ability points accordingly. You therefore run a very great risk if you are denied your prestige class of having a broken build. The ways you can build your character become very proscribed with almost no variety in the result. This is especially true when you can't apply for the prestige class until you have several levels under your belt.

Altering the 10-level rule would allow players a better chance of finding ways to make such characters playable--not just in a mechanical way but in an RP way as well. (For example, they wouldn't have to take a weird OOC class to artificially prolong the length of time they have before reaching the 10-level prohibition.) If the limit were relaxed at least for Prestige Classes, you would lessen the resentment of the long application process and the far worse re-application process. And if it were relaxed in general, then it would be easier to do something reasonable with the character should the application be denied.

Anyhoo...that's the last I'm going to comment. I feel like I've exhausted all I have to say about it :)

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TheGrinningHound

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2017, 01:20:32 AM »
PoTM is one of the more unique servers that designs its balance not around the end game, but more around the middle, imo. And that's because characters have a general life expectancy of say, 13 levels. So keep that in mind too, if you're trying to examine the general balance or metagame.

You're probably right-- the difference between a lvl 20 (15/5 Barbarian/rogue) wouldn't be all that different from a lvl 20 (15/5 Barbarian/Rogue) who didn't didn't have the 10-level spread rule applied. But with no 10-level rule, the second Barbarian could do, say, 18 Barb/2 Rogue. The ruling doesn't say that all classes have to be a minimum of five levels. Only prestige classes. So without a 10-level spread, certain combinations of classes will be much more powerful than others.

I'll list a few:
17 Ranger/2 Rogue/1 Fighter -- A high BAB HiPS fighter with a full tumble dump
18 Barbarian/2 Rogue -- A barbarian with excellent rages, evasion, and a tumble dump.
18 Wizard/2 Rogue - A timestopping wizard with tumble dump, evasion, and enough intelligence to also be as good a rogue as dedicated rogues.

Okay, so the 10-level spread is good for making sure that dual-class builds can't reap the full benefits of one class, and a majority of the benefits from a small sampling of another to become hyper versatile, and with less obvious weaknesses. It doesn't necessarily stop triple-class builds from splashing a class for a few levels only, as I said before-- but I also recognized that triple-class builds often have no way of aiming for the higher end progression bonuses of any of their three classes. They're usually builds that aim for getting lots of early utility out of many classes that usually blend well together. Or a low-to-mid level caster with reasonable combat ability.

So if the only part of the 10-level rule you're looking at, then, is whether or not you need to have the levels in range of each other ALL the time, or only by the time it's a completely finished build, there are a few things you might want to consider that I mentioned above as well-- specifically, regarding the general balance focus on mid-to-high range rather than end-range.

The difference between a current rule lvl 15 (12 bard/ 3 shadowdancer) compared to a "late blooming" lvl 15 (14 bard/1 shadowdancer) is much more significant. Those extra two shadowdancer levels don't do anything productive for the current ruling bard (12/3). The late bloomer has better saves, better bard song, 5th level spells. He is better in every way. In fact, the two builds will only be equal when each build is level 20.

16.) Rule: 13/3     :      Non-Rule: 15/1
17.) Rule: 13/4     :      Non-Rule: 15/2
18.) Rule: 14/4     :      Non-Rule: 15/3
19.) Rule: 14/5     :      Non-Rule: 15/4
20.) Rule: 15/5     :      Non-Rule: 15/5


*Could also be equal at level 18 if the non-rule bard wants to save his last level of bard for level 20, for the best skills.

This shows that frankly, yes, there is in fact a difference between a character with the current ruling compared to a character who could take his classes in any order as long as they -ended- 10 levels apart. This difference is visible throughout much of the late game. You listed some examples of barbarian/rogues, or fighters-- Those are harder to see, as they're classes that don't have obvious progression leaps. This power difference would be visible in every spellcaster, however.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 01:27:33 AM by TheGrinningHound »

lucid

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2017, 10:11:01 AM »
I'm not sure if anyone cares how newbies feel, but I've abandoned my hope of having Hestiana become a Divine Champion because the process is so encumbered by political and mechanical mires that my reaction is "Nope".

As level 11, I'd have to take it on my next level apparently, which will probably hit this weekend. I do not feel like it's a good bet, so I won't stop leveling until some undefined future time when I am given an answer, and since I am insignificant newcomer and like four people even know who I am, I doubt it would be approved in the end anyway. I'm not sure how I'm to "show quality roleplay" if nobody is watching. Maybe next year sometime. She would have been 15 cleric, 5 DC. Pretty much a style decision...she'll actually be more potent as a pure cleric in the end. I'll console myself with casting implosion, I guess.

Anyway point is, if you implemented this system to make prestige classes uncommon, it worked, at least on me.
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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2017, 10:21:42 AM »
I'm not sure if anyone cares how newbies feel, but I've abandoned my hope of having Hestiana become a Divine Champion because the process is so encumbered by political and mechanical mires that my reaction is "Nope".

As level 11, I'd have to take it on my next level apparently, which will probably hit this weekend. I do not feel like it's a good bet, so I won't stop leveling until some undefined future time when I am given an answer, and since I am insignificant newcomer and like four people even know who I am, I doubt it would be approved in the end anyway. I'm not sure how I'm to "show quality roleplay" if nobody is watching. Maybe next year sometime. She would have been 15 cleric, 5 DC. Pretty much a style decision...she'll actually be more potent as a pure cleric in the end. I'll console myself with casting implosion, I guess.

Anyway point is, if you implemented this system to make prestige classes uncommon, it worked, at least on me.

Lucid if you would like help becoming a divine champion please get in touch with me in game with a pm my main PC Lauel is one of the morninglord. Its not too hard to get for me it was taking screen caps of roleplay to train it that fit the divine champ profile for her faith then submitting those when i did the app. Having mentors helps a ton even if they're not a divine champ

Iridni Ren

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2017, 11:56:10 AM »
I'm not sure how I'm to "show quality roleplay" if nobody is watching. Maybe next year sometime. She would have been 15 cleric, 5 DC. Pretty much a style decision...she'll actually be more potent as a pure cleric in the end. I'll console myself with casting implosion, I guess.

Breaking my silence on the topic to say...

If you change your mind, 14/6 is a better build :) At least for Iridni it would have been because even though you give up that precious 8th level spell, you can save a point in Wis to put in Cha to make those Cha-based abilities better. And DC 6 gets a sweet boost to saves. For me, the main benefit of DC is those.

FWIW, I think Hestiana's RP is excellent :)

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MAB77

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2017, 04:52:41 PM »
[...] As level 11, I'd have to take it on my next level apparently [...]

Nothing prevents you from applying for a PrC at a higher level. You will simply be asked to relevel your character accordingly to the rules.  A level 15 char for instance would have to redo its char as a 12/3 char. The CC may ask you for some extra RP efforts on account you'd start level 3 in your PrC class.

Edited out, as it appears I was wrong.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 05:56:08 PM by MAB77 »
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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2017, 05:08:23 PM »
No, that is not true. A relevel is an entirely separate application which the CC cannot even grant. We do not encourage applications from characters who would require substantial rebuilds to take the class.
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MAB77

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2017, 06:00:40 PM »
I stand corrected, but that surprises me. I understand the reasons not to encourage that, but I do not recall it being against the rules per say.
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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2017, 06:45:37 PM »
I stand corrected, but that surprises me. I understand the reasons not to encourage that, but I do not recall it being against the rules per say.

It's not against the rules to ask for it, but we don't encourage it, and rarely grant it.
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Thundron

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2019, 09:22:12 AM »
I just dont get 19/1 builds with rogue. I would totally start with 1 rogue for huge stack of skillpoints, and add one more for tumble, ms, hide etc. later on. Anyhow, I dont like these forced restrictions, just because some builds are broken. I think people should be able to build their character not their combination of classes. If your character sheet says Sorcerer, your character might be shaman or something. I would like to pick levels from classes that give my character abilities he/she should have. :?

Also would it be possible to give sorcerer 4 skillpoints per level, as I see it, wizards need to study books most of their time, but sorcerer can use all that time to learn other stuff?


Purist

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2019, 12:24:39 PM »
It's lame. You accumulate 19 levels of skill points as a wizard, then pick a level of rogue and suddenly you're the master of tumble, because the free AC.

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2019, 01:56:36 PM »
1) Legion's assertion about not starting something late in life is not an accurate characterization of the present rules. You can do it...if you have started two careers already.

Legion rationalizes:

Quote
It's reasonable to believe that after a certain threshold (say, level 10) a character no longer has the time, energy, mental focus, or whatever else to take up learning an entirely new field of study.

Then why can I take up something entirely new all the way to 16th level?

It's just an example Iridni. Whether it's level 10 or level 16 his point still holds. I understand that this is a sensitive topic for you, but you should really try to consider alternate viewpoints before declaring them as wrong or "rationalizations."
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Arawn

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2019, 02:04:42 PM »
Letís not restart an argument from a year and a half ago.

Weíve been over this before; unless someone has a new point to actually add, Iím going to close the thread.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2019, 02:10:59 PM »
1) Legion's assertion about not starting something late in life is not an accurate characterization of the present rules. You can do it...if you have started two careers already.

Legion rationalizes:

Quote
It's reasonable to believe that after a certain threshold (say, level 10) a character no longer has the time, energy, mental focus, or whatever else to take up learning an entirely new field of study.

Then why can I take up something entirely new all the way to 16th level?

It's just an example Iridni. Whether it's level 10 or level 16 his point still holds. I understand that this is a sensitive topic for you, but you should really try to consider alternate viewpoints before declaring them as wrong or "rationalizations."

That's a post from more than 20 months ago :)

But!

"Rationalize" is in not inherently pejorative. It means the person used reason...but the reasoning may not be correct.

From Discord, here is an example:

Quote
Iridni RenYesterday at 10:34 PM
I'm just guessing because of not knowing how it actually works. But I would think assuming the standard client (not something rigged to try to break the server), the server timeout is longer than the client or at least equal.
My reasoning is that you want people who have slow connections and are willing to tolerate lag to be able to play.

Above, I'm rationalizing my choice, but admitting I don't know for certain.

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RedwizardD

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2019, 02:31:53 PM »
Maybe I'm just having trouble following what is said but could someone outline what the 10-level rule is doing compared to the 5-level rule? Do they do something more effective together?

aprogressivist

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2019, 03:01:28 PM »
Maybe I'm just having trouble following what is said but could someone outline what the 10-level rule is doing compared to the 5-level rule? Do they do something more effective together?

The 10 level rule applies to all classes; you can't have more than a 10 level cap between your classes.

e.g. if you're Wizard 11/Rogue 1, then Wizard 11/Rogue 2 is legal but Wizard 12/Rogue 1 is not legal.

The 5 level rule applies only to Prestige Classes. It means you have to take at least 5 levels of a Prestige Class by level 20 (in practice, usually by level 19, because of interaction with the 10 level rule above). e.g. if you're Rogue 15/Shadow Dancer 1, then every new level you take has to be Shadow Dancer, because going Rogue 16/Shadow Dancer 1 would imply an illegal build at level 20.
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Arawn

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2019, 03:14:58 PM »
1) Legion's assertion about not starting something late in life is not an accurate characterization of the present rules. You can do it...if you have started two careers already.

Legion rationalizes:

Quote
It's reasonable to believe that after a certain threshold (say, level 10) a character no longer has the time, energy, mental focus, or whatever else to take up learning an entirely new field of study.

Then why can I take up something entirely new all the way to 16th level?

It's just an example Iridni. Whether it's level 10 or level 16 his point still holds. I understand that this is a sensitive topic for you, but you should really try to consider alternate viewpoints before declaring them as wrong or "rationalizations."

That's a post from more than 20 months ago :)

But!

"Rationalize" is in not inherently pejorative. It means the person used reason...but the reasoning may not be correct.

From Discord, here is an example:

Quote
Iridni RenYesterday at 10:34 PM
I'm just guessing because of not knowing how it actually works. But I would think assuming the standard client (not something rigged to try to break the server), the server timeout is longer than the client or at least equal.
My reasoning is that you want people who have slow connections and are willing to tolerate lag to be able to play.

Above, I'm rationalizing my choice, but admitting I don't know for certain.

No. Rationalize means to come up with an argument to fit a pre-determined conclusion. It carries a strong pejorative connotation, and therefore reads as an ad hominem attack, whatever your intention. If you donít know both the denotation and connotation of a given word, itís best to avoid it, as you may unintentionally give offense (as you did here).
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2019, 03:39:55 PM »
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rationalize

Quote
to bring into accord with reason or cause something to seem reasonable

Quote
Synonyms:  account (for), attribute, explain, explain away

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2019, 03:49:24 PM »
Quote
justify, explain (away), account for, defend, vindicate, excuse, make excuses for, make allowances for, give an explanation for, provide a rationale for, make acceptable; extenuate

This isnít the place for a more detailed discussion, but Iíd be happy to explain connotation over Discord or through some other more private medium.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Cheesy builds and the level rules
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2019, 06:23:24 PM »
This fifth level wizard spell of Animate Thread is more easily cast by clerics.

I think most people see classes as a form of additional customisation, much like using feats to tailor their character to more closely resemble the concept they're after.

There are some odd advantages to taking minimal levels in a class such as additional saving throws generated from first level along with core feats and skills that represent that class in its totality within the first few levels, allowing one to make barbarians with the skills of a rogue, or fighters that can cast True Strike (no somatic component!) to land their combat feats, or sorcerer clerics benefiting from divinely infused abilities.

It's fair enough that the current rules in place, although the numbers and decisions seem arbitrary at first glance, enforce a feeling that if you are to multiclass then you must commit to a considerable degree of which it will usually hinder your ability to fully master a primary class.

My personal opinion is it is fine as is. You can't define rules to account for every possibility, but the nature of the current rules enforces the above ideas on a conceptual level, even if on a mechanical level some combinations slip through to acquire a strength more than the sum of their parts.
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