Smithing Changes

[Ophie Kitty]

Is it too soon to bring up? What was the intentions with the changes? Number crunching and comparing my own notes.. the changes quadrupled the effort/materials needed just to save 20-30% gold.

[Laiken]

Smithing was changed around 6 months ago now I believe. The cost factor in the xp gain was made much less significant so that you would be more likely to earn 100 xp from a full plate rather than 800. Though I believe now the costs have also been lowered to match this reduction but I haven't taken a look at the new prices for patterns yet.

[Ophie Kitty]

..But why? I can't imagine anyone wanting to go through the exponentially difference in effort/materials compared to how things use to be. Leatherworking seems to have gotten hit just as bad, too.

[Dante101]

..But why? I can't imagine anyone wanting to go through the exponentially difference in effort/materials compared to how things use to be.

Ah yes, the age old question. The claim (as I've understood it) was that smithing was too easy to level. So instead of adjusting it slightly it seemed like the dev team brought out the big guns and nerfed it to oblivion.

It's still possible to level, but I've heard people say they only manage to level once at early levels after carrying upwards of 2k lbs of ore back to the smelter, intending to turn the ingots into weapons. Definitely seems like a huge grind.

[EO]

We lowered the cost of full and half plates across the board last hak update because there was no reason for their inflated price since we rebalanced all AC types years ago. Recently, after being informed that the cost of the templates hadn't followed suit, we lowered the cost of the full and half plate templates. We didn't alter any leatherworking or smithing DCs beyond that.

[Ophie Kitty]

We lowered the cost of full and half plates across the board last hak update because there was no reason for their inflated price since we rebalanced all AC types years ago. Recently, after being informed that the cost of the templates hadn't followed suit, we lowered the cost of the full and half plate templates. We didn't alter any leatherworking or smithing DCs beyond that.

The amount of experience for crafting has always been assumed to be tied to the value of the templates and materials, the DC's haven't changed, but the experience has been reduced significantly. I've recently returned to my smith, A three-hour run for ~2000 pounds of iron barely gives one crafting level with the current setup. Using the 50% method, I'd have to flood out 15-20 fullplate attempts per crafting level, for the next fifteen levels. Taking into account failure rates and the eventual success rates, thats 180 fullplate attempts. ~41 bags of iron which takes roughly twenty-five to thirty hours of area resets, combat animations, inventory dragging and the eventual slow-crawl back to a forge. This isn't including any of the time you'll have to spend in crafting animations, which, luckily for fullplate, wouldn't be terribly long compared to other more mind-numbing needs.. (Looking at you, arrows!)

This is the same circumstances for trying to advance leatherworking at higher levels, except chitin is about ten times more frustrating to acquire and manage in the same quantities as iron/steel. I've done over 70-80 attempts at chitin-armor since coming back, for about 3500 crafting xp.

[BonkemBerin]

The old system was punishing enough if you ask me. There are barely any crafters on the server, and I've struggled to find a crafter during EU times. I also feel that the lack of crafted gear in the early-game is hurting new players because I've now met THREE people who have quit in frustration, and I've only been back for about three weeks. We need to make crafting more viable and less tedious, because -it has always been charity work, a contribution to the server- and never yielded enough money to be worth doing.

New players quitting often has to do with the fact that NWN is a complicated game for the unfamiliar, and without gear progression offered by smiths you can count on people giving up. As someone who has contributed to the hundreds of hours of crafting done by Sidhel, I can confirm that we sell most of our gear at a loss.

[Tycat]

I am not sure I follow the complaint, by the logic presented. The item cost doesn't effect the cxp gained, the DC does. The template cost does not change the DC. I have noticed no difference smithing since the update, except for potentially higher profit margins when making armor.

[Ophie Kitty]

I am not sure I follow the complaint, by the logic presented. The item cost doesn't effect the cxp gained, the DC does. The template cost does not change the DC. I have noticed no difference smithing since the update, except for potentially higher profit margins when making armor.

The material cost does take into account, or at least it use to, if that was changed too since last I played before EE. Its why you always got more experience making lower tier armor, then steel weapons, even though weapons might have been higher DC.

[Tycat]

I am not sure I follow the complaint, by the logic presented. The item cost doesn't effect the cxp gained, the DC does. The template cost does not change the DC. I have noticed no difference smithing since the update, except for potentially higher profit margins when making armor.

The material cost does take into account, or at least it use to, if that was changed too since last I played before EE. Its why you always got more experience making lower tier armor, then steel weapons, even though weapons might have been higher DC.

I am not seeing this math follow through. Have you tried testing with a new smith to make sure it's not just advancing levels that is lowering the cxp? Pre ee it was the same, tied to the DC, not the template cost. Just like the other trades.

[konssaml]

The old system was punishing enough if you ask me. There are barely any crafters on the server, and I've struggled to find a crafter during EU times. I also feel that the lack of crafted gear in the early-game is hurting new players because I've now met THREE people who have quit in frustration, and I've only been back for about three weeks. We need to make crafting more viable and less tedious, because -it has always been charity work, a contribution to the server- and never yielded enough money to be worth doing.

New players quitting often has to do with the fact that NWN is a complicated game for the unfamiliar, and without gear progression offered by smiths you can count on people giving up. As someone who has contributed to the hundreds of hours of crafting done by Sidhel, I can confirm that we sell most of our gear at a loss.

Well, as someone who used to play a crafter I have to say that spending all that money and time to just get some change and little to no exp in return, at least after a few level it's just not worth it unless I set shop at mists, which would make my shop unaccessable by those new players.
Add to that the cost of the pattern (last time it was 1200 coins for a full plate but I haven't check since then) and the fact that some people want to buy at such a price that doesn't even return the cost I simply lost interest.

All in all, unless the crafters gets rewarded for the work they do then they wont stick for long. You will only sell so many items until you reach your goal and then either stop playing with the said char or just craft for friends.

[noah25]

Full plate xp has been changed dramatically. It has nothing to do with the change in price or a change in dcs though. The xp gain was changed to have a higher dependency on secondary ingredients. So yes, smithing xp and strategies for leveling have changed dramatically but it is not a direct correlation between drop in template price and drop in xp.

[Ophie Kitty]

Full plate xp has been changed dramatically. It has nothing to do with the change in price or a change in dcs though. The xp gain was changed to have a higher dependency on secondary ingredients. So yes, smithing xp and strategies for leveling have changed dramatically but it is not a direct correlation between drop in template price and drop in xp.

My experience with smithing was before this change that you mentioned, then. Originally, it was why leather workers started using 1000gp full-plate templates with chitin rather than getting the baby-experience with the 2-5gp leather templates. I'm unsure when that change was made. The original hurdle of smithing was the initial crafting of copper, bronze, and iron items that were mostly useless. Eventually you reached steel, and then steel armor, which was typically 300-600XP per success. Whatever the collective changes have been in the last two years, that effort has been reduced to about 80-120XP per success for the same amount of effort.. and as originally stated, smiths are still going to need to do about three-to-four times the effort of crafting to progress compared to how things were originally.

If I wanted to increase smithing on my character by 10 points, my list regarding materials and attempts is still the case.

[zDark Shadowz]

Well, I got Karaz to 42+6 smithing after these changes to XP had taken place. Kinda just got bored leveling it up tbh, and was waiting for the full-plate template cost fix as steel full-plates in bodak & troll etc was the next thing to train with.

It's not hard to do. If you have a good modifier there's a curve at each DC where you're leveling up faster as you level due to successes / attempts required to level & XP gained vs diminishing returns.

It's just that initial bit where you need to start off with 25k+ lbs worth of copper that's the problem.

Hire some druids or make freedom potions so you can cart it without worrying about exhaustion. People that only ferry their actual carry limit will have problems leveling this.

Efficiency. Work out how to make your leveling efficient and you're at an acceptable level within a month or two, even if you have a 40h work schedule and you aren't overly committed to it.

All the skills are bad except for herbalism (lvl 52+2 here on that right now).

Honestly, woodworkers and leatherworking have my respect, and I feel sorry for tailoring entirely. Alchemy, smithing & herbalism are the easiest.

[noah25]

My experience with smithing was before this change that you mentioned, then. Originally, it was why leather workers started using 1000gp full-plate templates with chitin rather than getting the baby-experience with the 2-5gp leather templates. I'm unsure when that change was made. The original hurdle of smithing was the initial crafting of copper, bronze, and iron items that were mostly useless. Eventually you reached steel, and then steel armor, which was typically 300-600XP per success. Whatever the collective changes have been in the last two years, that effort has been reduced to about 80-120XP per success for the same amount of effort.. and as originally stated, smiths are still going to need to do about three-to-four times the effort of crafting to progress compared to how things were originally.

If I wanted to increase smithing on my character by 10 points, my list regarding materials and attempts is still the case.
[/quote]

I agree with you Sidhel its definitely a longer process now. IMO it does help encourage smiths to create a wider array of armor though. With xp between armor sets being more balanced, it encourages smiths not to produce 500 full plates. The new system gives more flexibility in how you approach leveling your smith. Its slower for sure and I liked the old system but I am at least happy to see the template price come down. It was really painful and shocking to observe the xp change and still pay 1200 gold for a full plate template .

[Dud_Goose]

Ah yes, the age old question. The claim (as I've understood it) was that smithing was too easy to level.

I find it a little incredible that anyone would arrive at this conclusion.  I spent about a week real time busting on copper with a character suited to the profession statistically and made it to longswords before I gave up.  Smithing shouldn't be a cakewalk, but it shouldn't be an absolute timesink either.

Compared to something like herbalism, which gives you useful and rewarding things off the bat, nobody in their right mind runs around sporting anything less than a steel weapon.

[Iridni Ren]

Herbalism provides one-shot consumables. Not to turn this into a comparison/contrast discussion, but many of the recent changes to herbalism were motivated by a desire to bring it "in line" with the other crafts, when IMO it's an adamantine ingots/mist weed comparison


If you argue that smithing is too hard versus other crafts, it is my experience that the other crafts will be made more difficult, rather than smithing will be made easier

[Dud_Goose]

If you argue that smithing is too hard versus other crafts, it is my experience that the other crafts will be made more difficult, rather than smithing will be made easier

To me it's more about how it evolves into a situation where we have fifty herbalists running around to every smith. (Literally, I would add).

Endgame crafting is something to consider yes, but the goal in my mind is to incorporate things into the process that encourage players to stay motivated in the process of getting there.

[Iridni Ren]

Because herbalism makes consumables such as basic healing, the server will always be able to support more herbalists than smiths. Even if smithing were trivial, we wouldn't need 50 smiths.

[noah25]

To get back to Sidhels original question and conversation.

Yes Full plate xp has changed dramatically. Yes the price has changed for the templates dramatically. No, one is not a direct result of the other but rather, both part of broader changes to the craft.

After doing all the crafts multiple times on multiple characters, yes, smithing without a doubt is the longest to master of any of the crafts. In regards to comparing it to smithing, I definitely agree that smithing should take significantly longer to master than herbalism. Adamantine has no equivalent on the server.

I am likely in the minority who is happy that smithing and herbalism both became more difficult to balance out the fact that they have both gotten significantly more powerful lately.

I hope I have answered your original question to your liking sidhel. Full plate is roughly the same that it always has been in terms of gp/xp, but you can't just crank out full plate to instantly level anymore. I would reccomend once you can hit steel armor, you diversify what you make and turn a profit off all the armor. It will be slower, but its the way it is now

[Ophie Kitty]

Full plate is roughly the same that it always has been in terms of gp/xp,

As stated, yup. Its about the same in gold, just four times the materials.

I've got similar experience to you it seems, I've done every profession at least twice on my own effort for every profession, and sat though tutoring and assisted crafting for nearly two dozen other characters on various occasions. (I'd be so bold to say I probably have more time wasted looking at crafted animations than my highest steam game at 500+ hours, thats only ~225000 crafting animations!)

I like there being a little depth to professions, but I see these sort of changes as limiting 'other' people, not necessarily myself. I don't care too much, I know how to do it, and I'm still going to be one to do it. I felt like the changes of herbalism did less to balancing the profession's power, and merely limited the availability to the same people who were probably going to grind herbs for the big stuff, It just takes a little longer for them, again.

Same with smithing. I'm still going to be able to make the better stuff eventually. I'm just going to end up with four times as many armors and take longer for the last. I certainly don't envy the person who wants to come around and start from scratch on smithing, or leatherworking.

[BahamutZ3RO]

PotM really needs a crafting system overhaul. There's just so much wrong with pretty much all of the crafts.

[Wholesome Memester]

To go briefly off-topic, I do like how the process of making leather gear is a multi-faceted thing with entire profession dedicated solely to making leather armor. Leather boiling and hide curing doesn't even get the dignity of being "leatherworking".

[Ophie Kitty]

I unfortunately had already blown eighty thousand gold on templates since coming back, not knowing there was a change to the experience or the future-now-implemented change to the price of templates. Having seen the effects of this update in game, unfortunately crafting armor isn't even an endeavor worth attempting anymore, Its just something you do to on the way to grind towards adamantine now. The changes basically encourage a highly obsessive amount of armor in circulation. (And they're so devalued they're being given away!)

[zDark Shadowz]

I made like 45+ suits of full-plate armour yesterday just to get 5 levels, woo. A certain faction has plenty of high quality suits on the cheap now for their members.