Author Topic: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense  (Read 522 times)

haifisch021

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Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« on: January 22, 2019, 03:45:51 AM »
Giving salt shadows true sight and tremor sense would severely reduce the viability of ninjalooting for Sithicus dungeons, increasing the incentive to actually appreciate the content that was made and protect people who actually try to do this content from being robbed by sneaks who go against the group-dungeoning philosophy of the server for their own profit and to the detriment of other players.

Before anyone says that the loot in those areas would otherwise be unobtainable without ninjalooting, that is simply incorrect. I know this because I just completed the dungeon with a group of people.

BattleCupcake

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2019, 03:56:07 AM »
+1, or add a creature type in the room that has such an ability.

Adding it to -all- of the shadows may be overkill. Adding a new enemy type on the other hand would be good.

PlatointheCave

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2019, 04:08:48 AM »
The idea that ninjalooting "harms" the loot is a myth.

If a ninjalooter loots a dungeon and then leaves, the loot will be back as it was after the areas reset. That reset time is 15 minutes.

The only ways a ninjalooter could deny a party anything is if the party happened to turn up during that 15 minute window, while the looter is looting or if the ninjalooter joined a party that went there later. This last one is because the loot will be worse if a ninjalooter returns before the area has been cleared (a measure to prevent repeated lootings after waiting for the area to reset).

As a serial ninjalooter I've had this happen only once. I told the party IC. The harm is a fifteen minute wait.

I don't really visit Sithicus much. I don't really care if the shadows are changed.

But please do understand that if your reasoning is that you don't want ninjalooters "ruining" the loot - that concern is, by and large, born of a stubborn myth.

BattleCupcake

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2019, 04:43:48 AM »
But please do understand that if your reasoning is that you don't want ninjalooters "ruining" the loot - that concern is, by and large, born of a stubborn myth.

The one place where this breaks is people who dungeon log after ninja looting, log into the area after a time, and then the loot respawns "already touched". Whoever shows up afterwards will be very, very sad.

And logging off after taking all the (easily lootable) loot in a dungeon is unfortunately a very common exploit. The results of this are very obvious by just looking at lootables throughout the dungeon.

Aside from your points, I think that ninja looting is generally a harmless action that serves to equip people that actually want to run content, as usually a dungeon will drop equipment useful for clearing it.

But we should probably stop the highest-end dungeons from being easily lootable altogether.

aprogressivist

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2019, 05:15:47 AM »
People don't run Veidrava as a regular dungeon because it's not worth it. The Shadows were already far too strong for the XP they gave  (lol Ethereal sneak attackers) and the loot is sometimes good but sometimes laughable for the danger of the dungeon. Sometimes good stuff drops but compared to the reliability of other dungeons for XP grind, Veidrava is simply not very rewarding or fun.

But let's pretend ninjalooting is the problem; I'm sure it's that time of the year for one of our scheduled 2 minute hates.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 05:17:42 AM by aprogressivist »
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FinalHeaven

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2019, 05:21:09 AM »
While it's fine to dislike ninjalooting, it's still a permitted and viable play style on the server.  I'm fairly certain that the developers don't have any intention of lowering it's viability as topics like this pop up fairly frequently and tend to always conclude the same way.  Steps have been taken in the past to make it a bit more difficult - such as removing one of the loot piles in Blaustein and switching it to the Hag's inventory - but these changes aren't done with the mindset of ninjalooting being bad

It's possible that similar changes may come to other dungeons, though.

I don't know whether looting a dungeon and immediately logging out afterwards only to come back when you think the area has reset is actually considered an exploit.  Maybe it should be.  But the ninjalooting itself certainly isn't.

Also to keep in mind, though a DM may need to clarify this, but if you catch a ninjalooter attempting to steal the loot of a dungeon you're currently running I believe this is fair grounds for pvp.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 05:23:39 AM by FinalHeaven »

Daboomer

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2019, 06:31:24 AM »
You guys can not fool me. This is My favorite topic! The ninjalooting thread is back  :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: <3

Phantasia

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2019, 07:08:46 AM »
You guys can not fool me. This is My favorite topic! The ninjalooting thread is back  :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: <3

« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 07:10:35 AM by Phantasia »
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Wholesome Memester

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2019, 08:07:40 AM »
When there's an entire PrC dedicated to ninja looting I do not see it going away no matter how subtle the suggestion is. Maybe it's time for everyone to roll crypt raiders?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 08:10:32 AM by Booksarefun666 »

The Prophet of Lies

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2019, 08:13:49 AM »
Thanks for the feedback. I have long term plans to address the ninja-lootability of the released Sithican dungeons. Whether or not ninja looting is acceptable isn't up for argument here, so please take it to another thread if that's the case. While I have my own opinions on the matter, they aren't necessarily reflective of the Dev team as a whole. I'll do what I feel is necessary for my dungeons. If, despite the forthcoming measures, you can still ninjaloot the dungeons, I applaud your accomplishment. I won't be making it easy.
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Wholesome Memester

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2019, 08:22:12 AM »
Thanks for the feedback. I have long term plans to address the ninja-lootability of the released Sithican dungeons. Whether or not ninja looting is acceptable isn't up for argument here, so please take it to another thread if that's the case. While I have my own opinions on the matter, they aren't necessarily reflective of the Dev team as a whole. I'll do what I feel is necessary for my dungeons. If, despite the forthcoming measures, you can still ninjaloot the dungeons, I applaud your accomplishment. I won't be making it easy.

Slapping everything with tremor sense and blindsense will make it un-ninjalootable if you feel that's your ultimate goal. If you screwed up in Sithicus previously you got corpsed in a remarkably awkward place that wasn't easy to get your corpse retrieved.

The Prophet of Lies

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2019, 09:01:10 AM »
I only suggested that I will be addressing the matter of ninjalooting in Sithican dungeons. That doesn't convey whatsoever the changes I'll be making. This comes in addition to the general rebalancing of the dungeons I am working toward. However this probably won't involve marking all creatures as auto detect. What I have in mind is much, much worse.
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Philos

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2019, 09:04:19 AM »
Let's be real here. You don't ninjaloot veidrava.

You ignore all the other mobs via invis and etheral jaunt and solo the end bit. Not exactly ninjaloot imo, but hey, it's still soloing post end game content. Should that be supported? Who knows.

Fyi, salt shadows in veidrava already have triple-digit detection rolls so honestly giving them blight sight/tremor sense isn't going to do anything. The same strategies currently used to solo the content there will still be used with no difference.

The Prophet of Lies

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2019, 09:35:47 AM »
All I can say is wait and see. I think anyone adventuring into the content solo is going to find it.. interesting.
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Daboomer

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2019, 10:41:01 AM »
You forgot the evil laughter at the ens prophet

Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2019, 10:46:53 AM »

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
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DM Cataclysm

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2019, 11:01:25 AM »
I’ll be the first one lootin’ post-change, fam! Take care of my gravestone! ^-^  :GRIM2A: :ghost: #fortheLOOTZ

aprogressivist

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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2019, 11:01:52 AM »
If you're going to rebalance the dungeon then removing Ethereal sneak attackers would go a long way towards making the dungeon more playable. Right now, Ethereal sneak attackers means there's only a handful of tactics and builds that work there; as eight Ethereal sneak attackers attacking you means at least seven count as flanking, it makes crit immunity or Uncanny Dodge not merely ideal but mandatory.

This is why people resort to ninjalooting Veidrava. It's not merely difficult, it's that most classes are simply going to get in the way here.
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Re: Suggestion: Give Salt Shadows True Sight and Tremor Sense
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2019, 11:54:14 AM »

This made my day.

Quote
This is why people resort to ninjalooting Veidrava. It's not merely difficult, it's that most classes are simply going to get in the way here.
I agree. It's a mess and I need to make it accessible for all classes. I've been on a "modern" run through the dungeon and collected some good feedback.

I'll keep what you've said in mind.
"The brave man inattentive to his duty, is worth little more to his country than the coward who deserts in the hour of danger."
~Andrew Jackson