You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It  (Read 3386 times)

Hallvor Hadiya

  • The Underworld
  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« on: January 21, 2019, 01:51:56 PM »
Let me first tell you what this isn’t, this isn’t me telling the DMs what to do or saying they’ve got it wrong this is just to offer an opinion and my personal experience. They do right by the server from my own interactions and what others have to say, from the events and planning to the time they dedicate to make this possible. So keep it civil.

As once said by a boy looking for a knight to a green muppet “Is the dark side stronger?” “No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.” Evil isn’t just a point of view on POTM its a fact, often times the only choice, the easier path, the seductive one. But from my experience its harder, and a lot more ugly as currently presented. There is no pay off to being morally bankrupt outside of events(and those are done well) there is no system to encourage a setting that has been built off the moral corruption of the good and few beyond delivering suspect packages. And there are few things to gain by playing as an evil character and everything to lose, you make enemies and encourage closure.

While not necessarily bad, and oftentimes building on already existing stories the logical question for a character is why? Why should I put myself through it all when it is a lot safer and rewarding to play it nice when you risk being ostracized from groups where you make your bread and butter and restrict where you can go.

We as players know it is for the story, but to make such believable we have to rationalize it to the character themselves, and that is in part connected to mechanics as they can dictate what we can do. What I’m proposing or trying to open a dialogue about is a way to sweeten the pot and encourage the darker behavior and support it.

Slavery & Mechanics

One way is to offer material benefits as with one of our contemporary servers Arelith, with slavery which is a big part of the setting with Hazlan, Har’akir, and even the slave galleys that prowl the mist sea. They allow people to with certain items that take hostile mobs and npcs and turn them in for gold at certain places making it both practical and easy to see the benefits and characters to become more exposed to the practice, after all, “I didn’t like it until it supported me”.

This also can move on into the realm of players, I know and have spoken to some who’d like to see this supported both as slaver and slave, this is also done on Arelith with collars who will tether players for a price allowing the owner to call them to them, auction and even sell them off for a price. Now, this like the aforementioned server this should be done with caution and permission if ever implemented cause it changes someone’s role entirely, and people should have some kind of ability to escape.

Now I’m not saying we steal it wholesale, or even at all but to take note of what they’ve done right and to see if anything can benefit POTM. “Good Artists Copy; Great Artists Steal” and reinvent.

Drugs & Illicit Items

Opium is illegal in two of the largest hubs on the server, you can be stopped and searched for it at any time and the consequences can be dire, lashing and even in severe case execution. But why would you ever carry it, it's not valuable to trade you can make more coin safely and easily. To make something that apparently holds such weight in the eyes of the law there has to be a reason to traffic in it.

What I’m proposing is the ability for people to craft designer substances with actual effect and consequences, maybe you get a large bonus to STR(more so than Bulls) but you might go berserk and attack someone, or maybe there is a percentage due to what its made of to vomit oozes that than attack you and around you.

If you want to make someone risk something there has to be a reward, even smuggling guns into Barovia doesn’t have much purpose cause people will just go to Port and buy one cheaper for themselves. Risk vs reward.

Closing Thoughts

These aren’t going to be exact solutions, or maybe you don’t think there is a problem. But it asks the question how can we make it more believable and have evils seduction make an impact, we already sacrifice a lot for our immersion the tougher character death systems compared to other servers who use a respawn like one. Do we want to encourage it or curtail?

But it also means the people who stop this, they are all the more heroic for the villains numerous and dastardly.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 02:01:13 PM by Hallvor Hadiya »
Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett

Destinysdesire

  • Vallaki Guards
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 847
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 02:00:55 PM »
I strongly support this thread, A slave mechanic option would make a lot of sense and have some real effect on places like Hazlan and Har'akir. As it stands theres little to support evil but a lot to see them destroyed. Even most villans play nice because theres little worth to being big and mean.

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 02:09:24 PM »
Three points:

Selling a character into slavery may work when there are subsequent expectations that that player will have to work for those who have enslaved them. This falls apart when you consider that a character sold into slavery in Hazlan or Har'Akir will be expected... to sit around waiting for NPCs to tell them what to do. On the other hand, yes, there are sometimes players of Mulan at the Red Academy, and yes, sometimes they do take player slaves; but all that happens without the need for a mechanical implementation; roleplay is our watchword and it more than suffices here.

Secondly, any actual implementation of slavery as you describe it either requires significant mechanical overhead (to chain two players so that they may not go a certain distance from the other) or is extremely damaging to immersion, say by being able to teleport another player to your side. That also makes it rife for abuses; the development team on PotM is quite conservative about creating new systems, especially when the benefits are not perceived to outweigh the costs.

The ability to craft illicit substances is on its face interesting and perhaps something we can consider as a part of either brewing or a forthcoming (probably) cooking system, but as opium is not particularly difficult to acquire in game and there are already delivery quests for illicit goods, I don't see this as a priority.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

Hallvor Hadiya

  • The Underworld
  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2019, 02:15:07 PM »
Quote
Three points:

Selling a character into slavery may work when there are subsequent expectations that that player will have to work for those who have enslaved them. This falls apart when you consider that a character sold into slavery in Hazlan or Har'Akir will be expected... to sit around waiting for NPCs to tell them what to do. On the other hand, yes, there are sometimes players of Mulan at the Red Academy, and yes, sometimes they do take player slaves; but all that happens without the need for a mechanical implementation; roleplay is our watchword and it more than suffices here.

Secondly, any actual implementation of slavery as you describe it either requires significant mechanical overhead (to chain two players so that they may not go a certain distance from the other) or is extremely damaging to immersion, say by being able to teleport another player to your side. That also makes it rife for abuses; the development team on PotM is quite conservative about creating new systems, especially when the benefits are not perceived to outweigh the costs.

The ability to craft illicit substances is on its face interesting and perhaps something we can consider as a part of either brewing or a forthcoming (probably) cooking system, but as opium is not particularly difficult to acquire in game and there are already delivery quests for illicit goods, I don't see this as a priority.

Thank you Arawn, for the speedy response and making the DM teams opinions clear. But I'd like to also ask about the former proposal in regards to mechanic slavery, while you consider the consequences to outweigh the positives when it comes to players what about selling hostile mobs and NPCs into slavery? It would introduce the characters more into the concept without the pitfalls you've illustrated.

Maybe they even offer you the ability to rent some like summons, just a thought.
Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2019, 02:25:47 PM »
I don't see any large gameplay problems with capturing certain types of hostile mobs per se; after all, we allow you to eat them. But the implementation may be wonky, and changing hostility settings in NWN is often a bit tricky. I'll look into it.

Rentable companions is something we've discussed in the past but ultimately we're not really keen on enabling solo play more than it already is.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

Silas Rotleaf

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 928
  • Space cat!
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2019, 02:29:46 PM »
For PCs though each there would probably be some DM supervision and oversight, right?

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2019, 02:33:46 PM »
For PCs though each there would probably be some DM supervision and oversight, right?

We would not do this for PCs.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2028
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2019, 05:14:01 AM »
I agree with everything here. There's really no motive to be a gun smuggler except for the RP that comes with it. I played one years back, and other than some seedy drain RP, the consequences for having firearms in Barovia, and.. The fact anyone who actually wants to avoid consequences will just go to Port, makes a potentially curious and interesting career choice useless. Now that firearms are more prominent in PvP and are substantially powerful, it's far more common for individuals to be illegally carrying one, however.


As for drugs, short of RP, actual opium possession is kind of pointless and isn't common, though I've caught players with abundant paraphernalia related to smoking it. However, there are delivery quests in the game that smuggle opium, it only exists in one of two hubs -- Barovia. And the Krofburg side where people could be caught with it more frequently, isn't as .. Well. Populated, as most would like, making it quite easy to smuggle in-fact, and while that mechanically benefits you monetarily, it doesn't exactly lend to RP. There's a balance between RP and mechanical incentive that would be nice to see. Designer drugs with weird side-effects, an addiction mechanic that would actually start off by giving you a really good bonus to something, but.. That bonus ends up dwindling, as you become adjusted to the drug, requiring more of it, which could cause you to make other saves. ..And if you go off of it cold turkey, you get some nasty negatives from withdrawal. That kind of drug play is always nifty.

Nemesis 24

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1406
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2019, 06:25:09 AM »
I think some very crucial points are being very overlooked here.

Personally, I think there are some extremely good reasons for playing evil here.  First and foremost, the faction association, and the power that comes with it.

Playing evil as a loner is exceedingly difficult - perhaps even impossible.  Playing evil and wanting to be socially accepted amongst other characters is also extremely difficult - and that is probably to be expected.  To demand otherwise is to demand a change in the playing style of others, to change their IC behaviour to suit your own experience, and that is not okay.

On the other hand, playing as evil in a faction is extremely rewarding.  It is also extremely powerful.

Let us have no illusions.  The Red Wizards, the Garda, The Red Vardo and others of perhaps a more secretive nature are extremely powerful organisations, on paper and beyond.  Red Wizards and the Garda have extreme power in their domains, political and otherwise, and can wield that power that can affect the lives of other players in fashions that other players simply are not afford.  Not to say this is a bad thing, but this is in fact something that other players cannot do, good aligned or otherwise.  They are also exceedingly evil organisations.  The Red Vardo also has exceeding power in the underworld as well.

Red Wizard students can become nobility, something not afforded to good aligned characters.  One of the most evil characters in recent history, Baron Laurier, became a baron through his evil deeds.  Dread has utilised evil to become powerful politically several times over with utmost success.

Simply put, evil 'does' get shortcuts.  They can access powerful groups and organisations, do exceedingly evil things to win their approval, and earn political power as a result.  It is not 'mechanical' power perhaps but as a thing that can shape the server, it is something good aligned characters do not get access to.  In this setting, evil has the power over each domain, and that is the gateway for evil characters that good characters are forced to either survive, evade, or go up against.  Considering these evil organisations still exist and still rule after all this time (which is frankly integral to the server) then its fair to say that good has some pretty darn big obstacles they're not overcoming any time soon.

With regards to Hazlan, it is an evil aligned stronghold that good aligned characters would be reckless or deperate to go to if they had the intention of causing problems.  In this domain, an ordained Red Wizard can claim enormous clout, something a good aligned character cannot (at least openly) claim in any domain anywhere in the setting by virtue of their deeds, supported domains or otherwise.  Maybe that means that its hard to play with others as a result, but being a prince or princess of evil wasn't ever going to be easy.

There are good aligned factions.  Mechanically wise, these can be pretty powerful factions thanks to their members - WFK, Morninglordians, and others.  Politically?  Not nearly so much, if at all.  They -survive-, they do not -rule-.  That is the crucial difference here.

emptyanima

  • Making & Breaking Characters Since May 2013
  • Church of Ezra - Refuge of Fifth Light
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3785
  • She Who Slays Dragons
    • Emptyanima Portrait Pack
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2019, 06:52:45 AM »
Mostly agree with your assessment, Nem, except in relation to the Garda. The Garda is not a de facto evil faction, but members of it may be.

Phantasia

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1337
  • ¿
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2019, 06:54:51 AM »
Something not afforded to good characters, Nem? Are you sure about that?

If you are referring to Hazlan specifically, likely. A broad stroke? Plain untrue.
Le cœur voit plus loin que l'esprit.
The heart sees further than the mind.

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2019, 07:51:45 AM »
Having played extremes of each kind of PC, I think both have their challenges. As with any PC here, the trick is to find and get connected with the like-minded (or to a DM who has something in mind that can use your PC to facilitate).

What I see as common with players is they want it to be easier for their particular concept: "I want to play slave (or slaver). I want to play a smuggler." If it's a novel concept you haven't seen on the server much, this means a group isn't likely around to support you, so you will either have to get this going entirely on your own, or hope a DM buys into it. So talk to one before you have the concept firmly and inflexibly in mind. Maybe as is it won't fit, but with a few tweaks the DM can make it work.

Lastly, I also find that things look different from the outside than in. Recently and on other occasions, Iridni has ranted ICly about how those not in the Kinship have such skewed prejudices about how it works...skewed in mutually contradictory ways. If you like to play evil PCs and think good PCs have it easy, try playing a good PC instead and seeing what the challenges are. And visa versa.

Above all, however, remember that most successful PCs are collaborative. No matter how wonderful the concept you have in mind, if you can't get other PCs to play with you, it's going to flop.

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

PrimetheGrime

  • Full-time Hunter, Part-time Outlaw
  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2022
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2019, 08:15:14 AM »
Having played extremes of each kind of PC, I think both have their challenges. As with any PC here, the trick is to find and get connected with the like-minded (or to a DM who has something in mind that can use your PC to facilitate).

What I see as common with players is they want it to be easier for their particular concept: "I want to play slave (or slaver). I want to play a smuggler." If it's a novel concept you haven't seen on the server much, this means a group isn't likely around to support you, so you will either have to get this going entirely on your own, or hope a DM buys into it. So talk to one before you have the concept firmly and inflexibly in mind. Maybe as is it won't fit, but with a few tweaks the DM can make it work.

Lastly, I also find that things look different from the outside than in. Recently and on other occasions, Iridni has ranted ICly about how those not in the Kinship have such skewed prejudices about how it works...skewed in mutually contradictory ways. If you like to play evil PCs and think good PCs have it easy, try playing a good PC instead and seeing what the challenges are. And visa versa.

Above all, however, remember that most successful PCs are collaborative. No matter how wonderful the concept you have in mind, if you can't get other PCs to play with you, it's going to flop.


Unrelated to the discussion, but would you mind bumping up your font size so I can read what you have to say without straining my eyes? (Not a dig, just wondering if you knew it was super small!)

Evil should by rights have a lot given to them, simply because this is a setting where they get everything given to them for being naughty, however, from a balancing server standpoint, you can't make it so unbelievably better than being a neutral/good character either because then people will get frustrated. I think that there's a good deal of balance to the setting right now, though I'd love to see more evil around. If good became something often ignored or reviled, imagine how sinister every respite would feel for a non evil character? Personally I think that'd be a swell move, but that's less on the DMs and more on the playerbase. 

PlatointheCave

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 897
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2019, 11:48:09 AM »
I've played plenty of evil and found it rewarding.

Black magic men, zealots, traitorous bastards and even some driven to evil by others.

Yes, you closure more. Or rather, you closure to death more. Sure, you can't hang out at the mist camp and do whatever people do there, but there's plenty of places evil and neutral gather to plot, sneer and break the laws of nature. There's spaces where it is elevated. There's plenty to pursue in the server to tempt and damn.

I have two thoughts about it not being worth it:

1. If your primary concern is playing a character to 20, doing dungeons and getting gear, then a lot of evil isn't for you in the first place. Flavours of less obvious, ambitious or more lawful evil could manage, but evil tends to do things that breed conflict - I'd call it story. You have enough conflict and you're either gonna be done and closure, or dead and closure. I don't play primarily for the things listed above. Plenty of people don't. It's fine if you do but I'd argue that added mechanical incentive to play evil in order to entice players that favour the things listed in point one would result in a large number of people being frustrated by violent ends to their characters.

2. The dominance of evil need not be represented by PCs. It's inherent to the setting. Laws are unjust all over, evil people are in charge and good can't do squat about it.

I think evil is fun and fine where it's at.

Except when a level 20 wizard norp kills you in timestop please stop that.

Hallvor Hadiya

  • The Underworld
  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2019, 11:50:40 AM »
I think some very crucial points are being very overlooked here.

Personally, I think there are some extremely good reasons for playing evil here.  First and foremost, the faction association, and the power that comes with it.

Playing evil as a loner is exceedingly difficult - perhaps even impossible.  Playing evil and wanting to be socially accepted amongst other characters is also extremely difficult - and that is probably to be expected.  To demand otherwise is to demand a change in the playing style of others, to change their IC behaviour to suit your own experience, and that is not okay.

On the other hand, playing as evil in a faction is extremely rewarding.  It is also extremely powerful.

Let us have no illusions.  The Red Wizards, the Garda, The Red Vardo and others of perhaps a more secretive nature are extremely powerful organisations, on paper and beyond.  Red Wizards and the Garda have extreme power in their domains, political and otherwise, and can wield that power that can affect the lives of other players in fashions that other players simply are not afford.  Not to say this is a bad thing, but this is in fact something that other players cannot do, good aligned or otherwise.  They are also exceedingly evil organisations.  The Red Vardo also has exceeding power in the underworld as well.

Red Wizard students can become nobility, something not afforded to good aligned characters.  One of the most evil characters in recent history, Baron Laurier, became a baron through his evil deeds.  Dread has utilised evil to become powerful politically several times over with utmost success.

Simply put, evil 'does' get shortcuts.  They can access powerful groups and organisations, do exceedingly evil things to win their approval, and earn political power as a result.  It is not 'mechanical' power perhaps but as a thing that can shape the server, it is something good aligned characters do not get access to.  In this setting, evil has the power over each domain, and that is the gateway for evil characters that good characters are forced to either survive, evade, or go up against.  Considering these evil organisations still exist and still rule after all this time (which is frankly integral to the server) then its fair to say that good has some pretty darn big obstacles they're not overcoming any time soon.

With regards to Hazlan, it is an evil aligned stronghold that good aligned characters would be reckless or deperate to go to if they had the intention of causing problems.  In this domain, an ordained Red Wizard can claim enormous clout, something a good aligned character cannot (at least openly) claim in any domain anywhere in the setting by virtue of their deeds, supported domains or otherwise.  Maybe that means that its hard to play with others as a result, but being a prince or princess of evil wasn't ever going to be easy.

There are good aligned factions.  Mechanically wise, these can be pretty powerful factions thanks to their members - WFK, Morninglordians, and others.  Politically?  Not nearly so much, if at all.  They -survive-, they do not -rule-.  That is the crucial difference here.

Certainly, excellent points worth considering, that a lot of good-aligned characters do not have access to nor is the post asking people to change their play styles as that would be utterly selfish and self-serving. But what I am proposing is representation on a mechanical level, as someone who's involved with the Red Wizards of Hazlan, we have been truly lucky that Brimstone has presented us with domain heavy events.

However, when the DMs are gone, they're humans and what they do for us is a kindness and a privilege we can't expect them to be there twenty-four seven, do the lights go out? As a lot of what is presented requires a storyteller and as written often doesn't translate to what happens and let us not forget it is a game and we work within the boundaries set.

Tools such as a more inclusive drug system, or NPC or hostile mob slavery would draw more attention to the profitability and appeal, a gateway to more role-play. This isn't about good vs evil from an OOC level but a way to encourage more RP. For every drug dealer trafficking in Red Smack there will be someone trying to put an end to the lab, for every person who'd chain someone, another to break the link.

This isn't about who has it worse, or who has it best, but what potential we can find in mechanically supporting a role-play style.

Quote
I've played plenty of evil and found it rewarding.

Black magic men, zealots, traitorous bastards and even some driven to evil by others.

Yes, you closure more. Or rather, you closure to death more. Sure, you can't hang out at the mist camp and do whatever people do there, but there's plenty of places evil and neutral gather to plot, sneer and break the laws of nature. There's spaces where it is elevated. There's plenty to pursue in the server to tempt and damn.

I have two thoughts about it not being worth it:

1. If your primary concern is playing a character to 20, doing dungeons and getting gear, then a lot of evil isn't for you in the first place. Flavours of less obvious, ambitious or more lawful evil could manage, but evil tends to do things that breed conflict - I'd call it story. You have enough conflict and you're either gonna be done and closure, or dead and closure. I don't play primarily for the things listed above. Plenty of people don't. It's fine if you do but I'd argue that added mechanical incentive to play evil in order to entice players that favour the things listed in point one would result in a large number of people being frustrated by violent ends to their characters.

2. The dominance of evil need not be represented by PCs. It's inherent to the setting. Laws are unjust all over, evil people are in charge and good can't do squat about it.

I think evil is fun and fine where it's at.

Except when a level 20 wizard norp kills you in timestop please stop that.

PlatointheCave as a person with more experience than I, between time on the server and recent escapades with Rhea, you've exposed villainous role-play to countless characters and bought a meaningful sense of dread to the oftentimes hidden underbelly of the Core. However, I disagree and that's fine.

1. People are what they're exposed to if you go to Vallaki you can expect xenophobic garda who are at their wits end with the near ceaseless deluge of outlanders invading their countryside, with very few options beyond violence. Or at the Mist-Camp waiting to hear about the next tragedy, pining over lost loved ones and friends between dungeons of course. But at the end of the day, we are in Ravenloft, people will or should be exposed to the nature of the setting.

But we are also playing a video game, and we'd be remiss not to use that side of it. Let's not forget that feeling when we find a really good item or that ding as we reach the next level. The mechanics are the rails this train runs on, and we already do so much to support the setting more won't hurt, but encourage to interact with it. I know and played on other servers you get exp for exploring seeing more of the map than you've seen before, I'd intentionally go out of my way to find new locations for this benefit but would often time stay and than read up about its lore and history, wanted to than become involved with it.

People like to hold something tangible, that isn't a bad thing its a representation of what I'm doing or been doing, and most of the time I find from my own experience that they then get involved with it on a more character level, have you ever had that item on you or apart of your outfit that just said 'this is my character'. This translate directly to role-play.

2. PCs are what we deal with for the majority of the time, and if you're on an awkward timezone you may never see an event, and characters cannot ignore their environment either nor should they lack the ability to interact with it on such a level. Even as written Ravenloft is a setting that perverts hope and warps dreams, with systems such as the dark powers offering power to those that fall, paving the way for the next evil.

I think evil is fine where its at too, but I also think it can be improved.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 12:52:13 PM by Hallvor Hadiya »
Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2019, 11:56:54 AM »
Spoiler: show
I've played plenty of evil and found it rewarding.

Black magic men, zealots, traitorous bastards and even some driven to evil by others.

Yes, you closure more. Or rather, you closure to death more. Sure, you can't hang out at the mist camp and do whatever people do there, but there's plenty of places evil and neutral gather to plot, sneer and break the laws of nature. There's spaces where it is elevated. There's plenty to pursue in the server to tempt and damn.

I have two thoughts about it not being worth it:

1. If your primary concern is playing a character to 20, doing dungeons and getting gear, then a lot of evil isn't for you in the first place. Flavours of less obvious, ambitious or more lawful evil could manage, but evil tends to do things that breed conflict - I'd call it story. You have enough conflict and you're either gonna be done and closure, or dead and closure. I don't play primarily for the things listed above. Plenty of people don't. It's fine if you do but I'd argue that added mechanical incentive to play evil in order to entice players that favour the things listed in point one would result in a large number of people being frustrated by violent ends to their characters.

2. The dominance of evil need not be represented by PCs. It's inherent to the setting. Laws are unjust all over, evil people are in charge and good can't do squat about it.

I think evil is fun and fine where it's at.


+1

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Exordium

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1806
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2019, 12:46:16 PM »
I wouldn't mind some less savory options for crafting, questing and the like. But, I'll still chip in something I've thought about a lot over the years that I think is relevant here; personally I believe that evil PCs should be outnumbered by the neutral and good PCs. I believe that playing an evil PC, especially playing a PC starting as evil or being planned from start as becoming evil, should be something that players do for selfless reasons. The stories of evil PCs are important and deserve being told, but at the same time, the dual purpose of evil PCs is to let the good guys shine. You should not play an evil PC expecting to "win", or even to survive. You should play an evil PC because you want to see how he's brought down.

It's my experience that when people play evil PCs with the expectation of taking them to level 20 and having them climb to the top of the hierarchy, one of two things ends up happening most of the time; either they never do anything antagonistic and appear like a neutral character would or then they eventually end up in conflict threatening closure and drama ensues as the player doesn't want closure. I worry that certain kind of mechanical rewards for being evil could encourage some players to play evil for the wrong reasons, leading to situations that do not serve the purposes of shared, quality storytelling.

Now I'm not saying that you're entirely wrong in your opinion that playing evil is unrewarding. I think there could be something more included with crafting or delivery quests or so on that appealed to the more evil PCs. Some kind of other systems could also be considered, though for the reasons already mentioned, I am not big on the idea of a script-supported slavery system.

There's also one quite important thing where I do feel that evil is rewarded proportionally more than good - community appraisal and having your PC remembered. I can list a lot more evil PCs who shook the server than I can list good PCs. In fact, I would go far enough to claim that as a roleplaying community, we sometimes appraise evil PCs disproportionately much compared to good PCs and have a bias in favor of evil PCs when we consider examples of good, inspiring roleplay.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 12:54:41 PM by Exordium »

zDark Shadowz

  • Guest
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2019, 01:25:21 PM »
DP checks are supposed to curse players in a Ravenloft setting eventually until the point they become NPCs, which takes the control away from the player, right? OOCly it's not supposed to be worth playing evil. Losing control of your character as your evil deeds run rampant & grow is supposed to be a penalty.

Play evil, get closured, that's 'Ravenloft'. I'm not overly a big fan of AMPCs / MPCs unless they're trying to save themselves from their curses, dragging people along in their plots to save themselves.

Good & neutral is fine but it's not a Ravenloft setting if players don't lose their characters because they pursued evil acts.

TedFromDebate

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
  • "Bardic Senses"
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2019, 01:40:23 PM »
I guess for me I am worried if I play an evil character I will just get dunked on by some random paladin with smite when I try to mess with folk in the crypts when I am like level 5, but personally I have never played a bad character, so I don't know how realistic that is.
Raine
"Everyone's got a song singing on, but what they don't know is they write the verses."

Lucille Kelter - Oathbearer of Atlas
"Love not only one's victory, but love one's struggle as well."

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2019, 02:17:06 PM »
I guess for me I am worried if I play an evil character I will just get dunked on by some random paladin with smite when I try to mess with folk in the crypts when I am like level 5, but personally I have never played a bad character, so I don't know how realistic that is.

If you are a 5th level good PC, you can't put yourself in that kind of position either. That is, you can't find a group of evil adventurers (say in the Drain) and start messing with them and be certain you won't get "dunked" on :) Evil or good...don't solo!

Anecdotally, here's an example of how day-to-day life for good PCs can be more difficult. My good PC was out at night, and I needed to log but was trying to get her back to the Mist Camp before doing so. Booking it in Ethereal Jaunt to the Tser Pool...when here's a dead PC and his ghost.

Evil Suspiria could have grabbed the approximately 8,000 gold on the ground, possibly eaten the corpse to get swol, and been on her merry way. What is a truly good PC obligated to do? Pick up the corpse--which was approximately at Midway Haven--and decide between carrying it all the way back to Vallaki or going on to the Village of Barovia. (Mind you, OOCly what I really wanted to do was neither and keep going so as not to be IRL late!)

Similarly, evil PCs can use motivations like this to manipulate good PCs. A vampire for example, forced a near-death Iridni to come out of the ethereal by torturing a bystander until she did. Suspiria can just worry about self-preservation.

More generally, the current fetch quests are much more lucrative for evil PCs when trying to get a PC off the ground. Sus made tons of cash doing them because she could double up both ways. Given an ECL that makes fighting anything of equivalent level impossible for her, this was super important so she could get basic gear.

DP checks are another mechanical way for evil PCs to be rewarded that good PCs have nothing comparable.

Although not off limits to good PCs, traps are a very strong mechanic that generally fit neutral to evil PCs better.

Something that could be improved crafting wise and made exclusive to evil are poisons.

But I think everything Plato said is on the money. Exordium, too, although I would say that evil PCs often being more memorable is fair. If a player creates a PC for "selfless reasons. The stories of evil PCs are important and deserve being told, but at the same time, the dual purpose of evil PCs is to let the good guys shine. You should not play an evil PC expecting to 'win', or even to survive. You should play an evil PC because you want to see how he's brought down"...that kind of thing does deserve to have some recognition and incentive, once the good guys win.

How many of the heroes who finish off Dracula in Bram Stoker's novel do you remember?

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Destinysdesire

  • Vallaki Guards
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 847
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2019, 02:20:11 PM »
I guess for me I am worried if I play an evil character I will just get dunked on by some random paladin with smite when I try to mess with folk in the crypts when I am like level 5, but personally I have never played a bad character, so I don't know how realistic that is.

If you are a 5th level good PC, you can't put yourself in that kind of position either. That is, you can't find a group of evil adventurers (say in the Drain) and start messing with them and be certain you won't get "dunked" on :) Evil or good...don't solo!

Anecdotally, here's an example of how day-to-day life for good PCs can be more difficult. My good PC was out at night, and I needed to log but was trying to get her back to the Mist Camp before doing so. Booking it in Ethereal Jaunt to the Tser Pool...when here's a dead PC and his ghost.

Evil Suspiria could have grabbed the approximately 8,000 gold on the ground, possibly eaten the corpse to get swol, and been on her merry way. What is a truly good PC obligated to do? Pick up the corpse--which was approximately at Midway Haven--and decide between carrying it all the way back to Vallaki or going on to the Village of Barovia. (Mind you, OOCly what I really wanted to do was neither and keep going so as not to be IRL late!)

Similarly, evil PCs can use motivations like this to manipulate good PCs. A vampire for example, forced a near-death Iridni to come out of the ethereal by torturing a bystander until she did. Suspiria can just worry about self-preservation.

More generally, the current fetch quests are much more lucrative for evil PCs when trying to get a PC off the ground. Sus made tons of cash doing them because she could double up both ways. Given an ECL that makes fighting anything of equivalent level impossible for her, this was super important so she could get basic gear.

DP checks are another mechanical way for evil PCs to be rewarded that good PCs have nothing comparable.

Although not off limits to good PCs, traps are a very strong mechanic that generally fit neutral to evil PCs better.

Something that could be improved crafting wise and made exclusive to evil are poisons.

But I think everything Plato said is on the money. Exordium, too, although I would say that evil PCs often being more memorable is fair. If a player creates a PC for "selfless reasons. The stories of evil PCs are important and deserve being told, but at the same time, the dual purpose of evil PCs is to let the good guys shine. You should not play an evil PC expecting to 'win', or even to survive. You should play an evil PC because you want to see how he's brought down"...that kind of thing does deserve to have some recognition and incentive, once the good guys win.

How many of the heroes who finish off Dracula in Bram Stoker's novel do you remember?

[/size]

Quoted to make it big enough to read

King Pickle

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2019, 10:35:45 PM »
Cheers for the scaling Destinysdesire.

Iridni, I don't think most goodies play like you do. I see good guys walk past corpses all the time, sometimes stealing their money and weapons if they are worth taking.

Nemesis 24

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1406
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2019, 10:45:13 PM »
Cheers for the scaling Destinysdesire.

Iridni, I don't think most goodies play like you do. I see good guys walk past corpses all the time, sometimes stealing their money and weapons if they are worth taking.

Then they're not good.  If that happens, screenshot, report and alignment will be adjusted accordingly.

King Pickle

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2019, 04:48:16 AM »
Cheers for the scaling Destinysdesire.

Iridni, I don't think most goodies play like you do. I see good guys walk past corpses all the time, sometimes stealing their money and weapons if they are worth taking.

Then they're not good.  If that happens, screenshot, report and alignment will be adjusted accordingly.

I would, but I have more pressing matters to do with my time.
Like scratching my arse.

Nemesis 24

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1406
Re: Slavery & You; Evil Just Isn’t Worth It
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2019, 06:07:13 AM »
Cheers for the scaling Destinysdesire.

Iridni, I don't think most goodies play like you do. I see good guys walk past corpses all the time, sometimes stealing their money and weapons if they are worth taking.

Then they're not good.  If that happens, screenshot, report and alignment will be adjusted accordingly.

I would, but I have more pressing matters to do with my time.
Like scratching my arse.

If you wont do nothing about it, then you dont really deserve to complain about it either.  Either that or its just made up.  An addition to that, I really dont believe that claim of 'most' either. 
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 06:08:58 AM by Nemesis 24 »