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Author Topic: Feedback on the rules section of the forums  (Read 690 times)

Daboomer

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Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« on: January 20, 2019, 05:13:32 PM »
Greetings prisoners of the mists, a few days ago i partake in a discussion where there seem to be somewhat of a concensus upon the fact there are certain rules that exist on the server but are not actually stated properly in one area, when you speak to longtime players and is one yourself it appears you are in fact aware of rules that can not be found in the rules section of the forums. The server rules which can be found here in particular would at least to me appear to not actually stating all the rules.

 (Can be found here https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=2863.0)

As an example, i know as a long time player that hiding a corpse behind say a faction door would be considered a PvP rulebreak. I am 100% sure of it, and yet i can't seem to find it in the rules section when i look through the PvP rules. At least not clearly stated.

"- PvP should always be done to further the positive experience of all sides and as part of a roleplay event. Turning instantly toward trying to kill each other seldom leads to more roleplay, and much more often just ends it. Try alternate methods in playing out the IC fighting first (for example, use emotes, rolls and subdual) before taking the other character's life, and never PvP to get a sense of winning, but always to further the story.

- When engaging in PvP, be responsible to the fact that it's a situation that can cause OOC grievance. Consider taking preemptive measures - possibly communicating with the opposing part OOCly to make sure they don't feel violated in their roleplay. If you during the conflict feel the opposing part isn't able to satisfyingly handle the IC consequence of their actions, seek advice with the DM team instead of pressing forward.

- Unless you have justifiable reason to assume that the counterpart is interested in the form of PvP and that it will enhance their experience, your character may not actively attack another character without overriding in-character reason and only when the victim has actively sought into the conflict. This encompasses extensive provoking, aggressive or confrontational behaviour by the victim, if they are intruding upon you and extensively refuse to withdraw, or if they are a member of a faction your faction is in conflict with. Retaliation of an attack of self or close ally is also legitimate reason to engage in PvP. In doubt, seek DM advice.

- Don't abuse the restrictions of the PvP rules to your advantage. Don't give the impression that you do not want to participate in PvP to later gain advantage by having the initiative.

- Guard PCs are always allowed to subdue suspected lawbreakers that resist or otherwise seek to avoid arrest.

- In terms of having IC cause for engaging PvP, MPCs do not need their victim to have engaged themselves in the conflict or consented to it. Equally, IC identifying someone to be a MPC can be sufficient cause for engaging in PvP with them. The PvP should still be done in accordance with all the other aspects of the general PvP rules - roleplay the hostilities before resorting to basic combat.

- Don't engage in IC conflicts with people you have OOC conflicts with or grudge. Make sure to have OOC conflicts resolved first, possibly by the aid of the Community Council or DM team. While any OOC conflict is ongoing, put the IC conflict on hold and generally avoid interaction.

- Anytime PvP occurs, an attacker must set the target of the attack to hostile as fair OOC warning before the attack. We suggest setting to hostile at least 10-15 seconds before the actual attack occurs.

- Abuse of OOC knowledge that an attack is imminent is not allowed.

- Ordering or paying others to attack someone counts as PvP from the one requesting the attack.

- Hiding, delivering irrevocable wounds or burning corpses falls under the general rules of PvP and is considered as such.

- The corpse/remains items should generally be treated as following the game mechanics. The corpse/remains item cannot be supposed to not be present in game when it actually is - you should not by roleplay decide that the corpse/remains item is somewhere else, like the bottom of the sea, the Shadow Rift, or in a remote region of the Core that is not actually represented anywhere within the game. In the same sense, you cannot dissolve/decrepit it beyond what amounts to the remains item.

- Whenever you feel you have been violated in relation to PvP, take your screenshots with your chat windows merged. To do this, right-click on one of your chat windows and select "merge" from the radial menu. This will help show the events in the order they occurred.

Stealing:"



This is simply one example and i believe there might be more examples where the rules could be stated more clearly, even if my said example would be proven incorrect i feel i might be on to something here.

This thread is therefore to try and help us gather up these issues if they exist so it will be easier for moderators to take a look at with an easier overview since i suspect quite a few rules are sadly scattered in statements and such on the forums rather then simply stated as plain and simple as possible for easy access to players.



Philos

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2019, 08:51:26 PM »
Seconding this. There's been a few recent rulings that don't appear to be reflected in our rules. For example like hiding corpses on water tiles. Would it be possible to review recent rulings and maybe flesh out a few areas of our listed rules with updated information?

Destinysdesire

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2019, 09:16:44 PM »
A better clarification on the suicide rule would be good too.

EO

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2019, 09:39:20 PM »
A better clarification on the suicide rule would be good too.

Suicide is clearly covered in the rules under Death and Dying, not to mention it's a DnD rule.

Seconding this. There's been a few recent rulings that don't appear to be reflected in our rules. For example like hiding corpses on water tiles. Would it be possible to review recent rulings and maybe flesh out a few areas of our listed rules with updated information?

That's considered an exploit of game mechanics since it is abusing a glitch with NwN that makes items invisible when under a water stream. We won't list every potential exploit there is but we trust our players' judgment. If something feels too easy or broken then it likely is; to keep using it afterwards is exploiting. As an example, even when the relevel crystal's conversation says it is limited to five uses, many used it more than five times without reporting it, or people who found loopholes to craft non-craftable gear.

Quote
As an example, i know as a long time player that hiding a corpse behind say a faction door would be considered a PvP rulebreak. I am 100% sure of it, and yet i can't seem to find it in the rules section when i look through the PvP rules. At least not clearly stated.

It's actually already covered in the PvP rules:

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- Hiding, delivering irrevocable wounds or burning corpses falls under the general rules of PvP and is considered as such.

Hiding corpses falls under PvP rules, and behind locked doors counts as hiding. Since locked doors belong to factions, DMs have the final say on what can be kept there. As an example, the guards can store bodies in the Vault, which is essentially inaccessible, same for factions like the Verzi. We've chosen overall to not let it happen ICly because the tradeoff would be to have all faction areas be accessible by lockpicking/bashing.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 10:21:58 PM by EO »

Daboomer

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2019, 10:27:20 PM »
A better clarification on the suicide rule would be good too.

Suicide is clearly covered in the rules under Death and Dying, not to mention it's a DnD rule.

Seconding this. There's been a few recent rulings that don't appear to be reflected in our rules. For example like hiding corpses on water tiles. Would it be possible to review recent rulings and maybe flesh out a few areas of our listed rules with updated information?

That's considered an exploit of game mechanics since it is abusing a glitch with NwN that makes items invisible when under a stream. We won't list every potential exploit there is but trust our players' judgment. If something feels too easy or broken then it likely is; to keep using it afterwards is exploiting. As an example, the relevel crystal has been abused by many, who used it more than the five times, without reporting it, or people who found loopholes to craft non-craftable gear. In both examples, we could issue bans to the perpetrators.

Quote
As an example, i know as a long time player that hiding a corpse behind say a faction door would be considered a PvP rulebreak. I am 100% sure of it, and yet i can't seem to find it in the rules section when i look through the PvP rules. At least not clearly stated.

It's actually already covered in the PvP rules:

Quote
- Hiding, delivering irrevocable wounds or burning corpses falls under the general rules of PvP and is considered as such.

Hiding corpses falls under PvP rules, and behind locked doors counts as hiding. Since locked doors belong to factions, DMs have the final say on what can be kept there. As an example, the guards can store bodies in the Vault, which is essentially inaccessible, same for factions like the Verzi. We've chosen overall to not let it happen ICly because the tradeoff would be to have all faction areas be accessible by lockpicking/bashing.

So why is it not simply stated right there then "you can for examples not hide a corpse in a faction base"

There was also a ruling some time back that you can't declare a character dead pubicly and then Keep playing Said character. Sensible rule and something that likely should be added in to the rules. I get that most People Will see that going into the thread but just putting it in the rules section as well makes it clearer.

https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48913.msg602713#msg602713

EO

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2019, 10:33:06 PM »
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So why is it not simply stated right there then "you can for examples not hide a corpse in a faction base"

Because it's not a hard and fast rule, as the two counter examples show. There may be situations where it is allowed, even for other factions, if it's called for. And players don't get warned/banned for doing it; DMs just bring the body back in play.

Quote
There was also a ruling some time back that you can't declare a character dead pubicly and then Keep playing Said character. Sensible rule and something that likely should be added in to the rules. I get that most People Will see that going into the thread but just putting it in the rules section as well makes it clearer.

Actually, that is also already covered in our rules under Death and Dying. The problem was that people didn't acknowledge the actual rule when they posted to closure their characters, so we just plastered a reminder in the topic itself.

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- We generally consider "permadeath" as an OOC term, and as such, we prefer to avoid it as a consequence of the IC roleplay. Character stories can come to a "closure", but only by the decision of the player of the character. Nonetheless, in some situations it may still be very unlikely that a dead character should ever return to life, practically amounting for the same but is entirely IC.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 10:34:57 PM by EO »

Philos

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2019, 10:34:53 PM »
How about being in faction bases that you're not a part of without DM oversight?


EO

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2019, 10:36:59 PM »
How about being in faction bases that you're not a part of without DM oversight?

That's also already covered under NPCs:

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- Attacks upon NPCs are expected to be handled in character and always under DM supervision. Killing an NPC needs to have a valid role-playing reason - being "evil" is not sufficient. And be aware that wholesale slaughter will likely get you executed.

- Interacting with the world is an essential part of every persistent world, that is interacting with both other players and with the environment. Ignoring NPC's and such aspects of the environment willingly during roleplay is detrimental to the realism and consistency of the setting. As such, it is considered akin to metagaming to ignore the NPCs when they from an IC perspective would be expected to react. For example, if your character is currently wanted by the city guard, it is not acceptable to ignore the guard NPCs simply because there are no DMs online to control them.

I strongly encourage people to actually read the rules.

Philos

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2019, 10:43:27 PM »
So what's the difference from opening the door to the bounty office in stealth or invisibilty vs. the citadel?

Daboomer

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2019, 10:56:22 PM »


Actually, that is also already covered in our rules under Death and Dying. The problem was that people didn't acknowledge the actual rule when they posted to closure their characters, so we just plastered a reminder in the topic itself.

Quote
- We generally consider "permadeath" as an OOC term, and as such, we prefer to avoid it as a consequence of the IC roleplay. Character stories can come to a "closure", but only by the decision of the player of the character. Nonetheless, in some situations it may still be very unlikely that a dead character should ever return to life, practically amounting for the same but is entirely IC.
[/quote]

Granted my understanding of english is the understanding of someone using it as a secondary language. But i feel simply adding the sentence "You can not declare your character closured and then bring him back" would clarify that more.

Arawn

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2019, 10:58:57 PM »
So what's the difference from opening the door to the bounty office in stealth or invisibilty vs. the citadel?

Well, sneaking into the Citadel illegally is a crime. Entering the bounty office invisibly is not, so you’re not really doing anything to which the NPC would react.
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Philos

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2019, 11:35:06 PM »
I strongly encourage people to actually read the rules.

Players do read the rules, we're saying they vague and easy to be misunderstood. Sure, you can extrapolate what's written but clarity is better.

The rule on character closure mentions nothing about going back on your decision. It was clarified later in a thread, but that same level of clarity should be brought to the actual rule as written.

Rulings on specific spells like domination and charm, while they exist on the forums, they're not in any ready means of reference. For a lot of people, myself being one of them, NwN was their first experience with DnD. I'm not familiar with their rule set. Should I be to pick up Potm? Should we tell players to read 3.0/3.5 rules in additions to the ones we've presented?

Are we going to get a ruling on what is acceptable to emote from faction NPCs, animals and dominated players with the added @dominate/npc/animal functions? I'm sure one was made but it's no where to be found on the rules section.

I'm not faulting anyone, I think more could be made clearer is all.



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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2019, 06:54:57 PM »
I think clarification on some things can only do good.  There are a lot of things that tend to come up on the fly in situations that can often be tense, and with no DM around to provide insight can often lead to undo drama or stress for the parties involved.

One thing that I've seen come up frequently is the matter of disguises.  Dice Rolls are not enforced between players without a DM present, so the situation of the player trying to be in disguise is often a questionable affair.

Silas Rotleaf

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Re: Feedback on the rules section of the forums
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2019, 10:04:10 AM »
In general I think giving it a bit of an update and some revisions for flow wouldn’t hurt.  Content is fine but editing helps things be easier to read for people.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 10:07:08 AM by Silas Rotleaf »