Suggested Feat: Improved Shield Proficiency

[Iridni Ren]

Type of Feat: General

Prerequisites: Str 13+, Shield Proficiency

Specifics: The character is better able to employ a shield for both defense and offense. She receives a +1 to parry when using a small shield, +2 to parry when using a large shield, and a +10 to parry when using a tower shield (effectively negating the ACP for using these shields in regard to parry).  Moreover, when using a tower shield, she counts as one size larger when receiving or attempting a knockdown attack.

Use: Automatic

Note: I considered making the requirement a 15 Str, but the ACP improvement would seem doable for those with less strength when employing smaller shields. And in the case of tower shields (which is of the greatest benefit), most anyone using one is going to have to be very strong anyway.

[Mailbox-2100]

The Parry element is cool- but the additional Knockdown bonus is a feat in itself, really. Especially stacking with imp.knockdown.


 Your Rough is broken as it first stands. I like the idea in general, but another issue I see is this only combos with Shield Parry- as naturally Parry does nothing for a Shield user.
Edit: Sure, Parry -does- have its own feature. I just never see anyone use it!

[Jeebs]

While I support the idea that a tower shield would make you harder to knockdown, I don't think it should alter your size category since that would actually make you better at knocking down others and allow you to potentially knockdown creatures you shouldn't be able to. I don't see how a big bulky shield would help you with that. Otherwise I think the idea is nifty enough though perhaps needs a different name to address what Maiblox said about only being of use to shield parry feats.

[Iridni Ren]

You're right to characterize it as a draft, because it very much is so

My thinking, however, was to make it useful for a variety of builds and therefore somewhat flexible, while addressing perceived problems.

The knockdown aspect is to make tower shields more worthwhile in and of themselves and therefore give PCs who are not dex-based at all some reason to take the feat. It also seems reasonable that tower shields in the right hands would provide stability against a charge or serve as a great battering ram when making one.

A PC who is capable of using the synergy between this feat and Shield Parry, however, would have to have 15 in Dex and at least enough strength to manage a tower shield. Some build might rely on the 13 Str minimum and then be buffed most of the time to deal with the encumbrance. Nevertheless, the PC would have invested three feats (counting Shield Proficiency) and at least a 15 in Dex and 13 in Str. So if a caster, coming up with the points for maximizing the casting stat will be a challenge. It might be better to multi-class in that case.

A feat is generally equivalent to four skill points (several feats give either +2/+2 to two skills or +4 to a single skill). This feat give a max of +10 but that's going to be useful only if the PC has made other sacrifices and only when the PC is using a tower shield...which carries a -10 penalty to the skill, making it a wash.

Sure the feat can be tweaked, but I don't see it as in any way over-powered. The consensus is that Tower Shields are useless. This makes them have one advantage by itself and, and if the PC takes another hard-to-get feat with this, a Tower Shield becomes very good indeed.

[haifisch021]

I don't know if I'd say tower shields are useless. I use one and I've never had any issues. Despite having 8 dex and no parry, I do well enough in the AC department to tank most things. Also, while I can see your reasoning behind increasing someone's size category, I think a more appropriate solution would be to simply give a bonus to Discipline instead. This would achieve a similar effect without being so overpowered and without causing unintended side-effects.

[Jeebs]

Increasing size category is really not a viable way to go in my books. As a human you're considered a medium-sized creature, which means that the biggest creatures you can knock down are large-sized ones (like an ogre for example). If you increase their size category simply by holding a tower shield then suddenly they're able to knock down huge creatures (like a dragon as an example, though I don't know if they can actually be knocked down) and that simply doesn't make sense from a logical perspective. I don't see how a tower shield could help you knock anyone down, really. Resisting a knock down yourself though is another matter entirely and does make sense to me. An increase to discipline might be a good work-around if you can't give a direct bonus to resisting knockdowns specifically though it would also make you better at resisting disarm and called shots which I suppose wouldn't be unrealistic given that you have a small wall you can hide behind.

[Wholesome Memester]

The idea that shields are in need of buffs just because other playstyles that were downright gimping yourself to play originally (fighting with one hand, dual-wielding and not receiving extra AC)  got buffs is worrisome. Where would the power creep end with this? I know that the odds of dungeons getting tweaks as a result of it is unlikely.

Also the size category + imp KD which increases your size category ontop of it not only absolutely obliterates anyone that plays small characters, but is also particularly a huge AB bonus even against normal-sized people. You not only get extra AC on the mere fact that you carry a shield but when you enchant it, you get extra powerful boons ontop of it which the dual-wielding and one-handed variants do not get.

[Iyer]

That would be a great barbarian feat.

[Iridni Ren]

In response to suggestions and criticism, I've renamed the topic and made other changes as below as an alternative.

Type of Feat: General

Prerequisites: Str 13+, Shield Proficiency

Specifics: The character is better able to employ a shield. When wielding a shield she receives the following benefits to her Discipline: +1 for a small shield, +3 for large, and +6 for a tower shield.

Additionally, she receives a +1 to parry when using a small shield, +2 to parry when using a large shield, and a +10 to parry when using a tower shield (effectively negating the ACP for using these shields in regard to parry).

Use: Automatic

[Revenant]

I don't believe negating the ACP for shields is a good idea. Right now there is a reason to use large or small shields with shield parry; with Shield Proficiency, it will go back to being always optimal to rock a giant tower shield.

[Iridni Ren]

It appears you have misunderstood.

Improved Shield Proficiency would not remove the ACP; it would effectively negate it only in the case of parry.

Consequently, there are several reasons for keeping a small or large shield:

* This is at the cost of an additional feat.

* Tower shields weigh considerably. On a server in which encumbrance is a major constraint, a tower shield constitutes a significant portion of the weight any PC can carry (more than one third for my main).

* The ACP would remain for all other skill checks.

* Making use of the feat in this way requires having a Dex of 15 so as to take Shield Parry. Very few builds are going to have the points left for enough strength to make Tower Shields an easy choice after putting 15 in Dex.

In any case and as I previously posted, a -10 ACP for tower shields does not make a lot of sense under the parry system as implemented on POTM. Parry here is an AC mechanic. An ACP of 10 negates 2 of the 3 points of AC a tower shield provides. Full plate has only an 8 ACP, despite weighing much more and covering the entire body.

It's reasonable that having a giant shield on one's arm makes "spectacular counterattacks" more difficult--or the other checks that are still implemented as they were in the original game. But if parry is entirely about blocking blows (as it is on POTM), then a big shield presumably is better than smaller--certainly not inferior.

[EO]

We increased the ACP on shields to balance them with Parry; it's not accidental. Small Shields have 3 ACP, Large 8 and Tower 13; you'll notice the increment of 5, which also is how much Parry you need with Shield Parry to get an extra point of AC. That means that they all have the exact same maximum optimized AC output (6 AC from Parry/Base shield AC, with the possibility of going up to 10 AC if enchanted or buffed).

A feat that would negate this ACP would essentially throw shields off balance. Your feat gives Tower Shields an extra 3 AC (since you negate 13 ACP), Large Shields an extra 2 AC and Small Shields an extra 1 AC. Basically if we implement that, we just essentially went back to NwN's original balance, except everyone, shield and non shield users got extra AC to boot. The point of this system is that all builds can be viable.

The reason Tower Shields are not efficient is their weight compared to the AC they give when using Parry. However, for non-Parry users, they remain the best deal around. The character with 10 Dex who won't invest in Parry is better served with a Tower Shield than any other option.

[SardineTheAncestor]

EO, thanks for explaining the way shields work and why they work the way they do. I am playing a character with 8 DEX but high parry as a result of hitting the recommended button and have read a lot of discussion on this, unsure of where my character stands. But now I feel enlightened after following it for long enough that some more reliable info has come to light & other users have helped me on the Discord.

Maybe this feat is unnecessary for defensive purposes, or maybe it should work differently. Obviously, shields are for blocking, not for dodging, so what about a passive damage absorption? 1 per 3 caster levels with tower shields, 1 per 5 with large shields, 1 per 6 with small shields? The sound effect of the shields clunking and swords clanging is much more exciting than the action-movie "woosh" every time someone dodges.

A small bonus to Knockdown attempts without changing character size? Shield bash comes to mind.

I feel these would be able to combo with Shield Parry for the 15 DEX characters but also provide an alternative extra feat for characters who have grueling survivability in hand-to-hand. How would this effect the balance? Do shields need the help?

[BattleCupcake]

This recital of the original motivation between changing the parry system to introduce shield parry is useful for the people in this thread who may've forgotten it, and I think this viewpoint is valid and viable; the introduction of the Parry system makes it much more competetive to use different combat styles.

At the high end of it all, I feel a tower shield should be the highest AC option regardless, since it weighs an extra 20~60 pounds depending on the shield, and doesn't get the increased damage of two-handers or the increased APR (and AC!) of two-weapon fighting. Have we considered aligning the system so that shields are accessible, and also the highest-AC option with proper investment?