This server still hating on shields.

[Green Monster]

I left 2 years ago. I came back because I REALLY missed the setting. I have to confess to being a bit disappointed where shields are concerned, though. A sword and shield is my favourite aesthetic.

I saw the Sheild Parry feat. I appreciate the thought, but it doesn't help. Why does it require 15 dex? It doesn't require a lot of coordination to block at 2 inch wide blade with a 2 foot wide shield.  If a shield parry feat had an ability requirement, it should be 13 Strength (same as Power Attack). As it is, the shield parry feat is just throwing more love at dex builds which already get an awful lot of love on this server. Please drop the dex requirement.

Please remove the dex requirement from the Shield Parry feat, or lower it to 13 (same as Dodge feat) AND make the shield parry feat work ONLY with the smallest category of shields. Shield Parry feat (and Parry AC bonus in general) should not work with large shields and tower shields, those should be for non-parry and/or strength based builds.

Please reduce the weight of shields down to the more updated (and realistic*) NWN2 weights:

Small shield =  5 lbs
Medium Shield =7 lbs
Tower Shield = 19.4 lbs

*The Hall of Arms and Armor at the Metropolitan Museum of Art here in New York City has many fine examples of real medieval shields. As you can see here, a medium-sized shield roughly 2 feet tall and 1.5 feet across does indeed weigh about 7 lbs.

IF you do this, then those who can train with a shield can do so, and get a total of 1 ac (with enchantment) higher for their efforts than those who train parry without a shield (someone using a shield having higher defense than someone who doesn't? radical concept, right?). Those who don't have the skill points for parry (like clerics and paladins) can use a shield without the weight of it breaking their arms, but they can't get as high ac as someone who has trained, except temporarily with spells.

[zDark Shadowz]

Crafted shields are light, shield parry makes tower shields equivalent to bucklers in usefulness & you can throw a +4 varnish on it to make it the best thing to use for AC with the lowest dex & feat requirements...

It's in a good place right now, just need to build right for it.

[Nemesis 24]

At one point they attempted to make the base AC of the shields higher to compensate for the whole thing.  Sadly, it didn't work - while the shield itself had a higher base AC, the number didn't carry across to the PC, for whatever reason.  It had to be dropped, but I can't recall what the solution was in its place.

[Green Monster]

Crafted shields are light, shield parry makes tower shields equivalent to bucklers in usefulness & you can throw a +4 varnish on it to make it the best thing to use for AC with the lowest dex & feat requirements...

It's in a good place right now, just need to build right for it.

Shield Parry still require a 15 dex. We can't all be rogue/fighters with 16 each in str and dex and 8 charisma. There is zero reason why you would need 15 dex to block a sword with a 2 foot wide shield. If anything, you'd need strength. As I said, Shield Parry is just throwing more love on a build type that has always gotten too much love here.

[Blight]

I'm inclined to agree.  I dont think parrying with a shield requires any more dexterity than swinging a sword, which is determined by strength.

If I HAD to gate it, I'd put it behind Intelligence 11 OR Improved Parry. But otherwise I would not. Parrying with a shield  currently has the same dex requirement as Two-Weapon Defense.  It's obviously not even close to the same thing in terms of challenge.

[zDark Shadowz]

Shield is giving you a +9 AC bonus, two-handers heavy armoured folk cap out at a +4 Parry bonus.

I'd say they're in a good place. Base 15/15 str/dex at character generation is workable, next 5 points go into STR, and the benefit is +5 AC.

If you don't want to spend Dex, to increase your armour class, that's entirely your character choice, and I won't fault you for that, but it's really not that much of an attribute cost when you get +5 AC which is just enough after the right support for end-game conquering. I've been with a perfect group to Sithicus and it was hell, it's made me wish I took that extra point into Dex. 5 AC without sacrificing a large chunk of AB is totally worth it.

I might just do it at lvl 16 so my attribute spread is 18 15 14 14 10 10, even if I'm weapon focused in a Halberd, and keep a good shield in reserve. It's genuinely the tipping point after the right buffs that would make what was a difficult trial so, so much easier.

[foxtale]

While I have no thoughts on your suggestions themselves, consider that the 15 Dex requirement might not represent blocking attacks with the shield, but blocking attacks with your weapon in addition to the defense the shield provides (as represented by it's AC bonus) and without being hindered in this endeavour by it's bulk.

[Green Monster]

Two years ago I had this discussion. Basically, people telling me I'm a complete madman to expect that someone who trains in using a shield should have significantly higher defense, without magic, enchantment, or varnishes, than someone who doesn't. Right now, as is, if you sacrifice your xp to enchant a shield you can get an ac exactly ONE higher than someone using bonetti's defense feats. ONE.  If you don't employ magic, then your non-magical shield using ac is way worse than someone not using a shield. Worse than someone using two weapons and blocking attacks with their off-hand dagger. And here people are once again telling me that's ok and if I don't like it I should build a character with little to no points left over for charisma or intelligence or anything else. As if having one build type that gets the best defense and the best offense both is ok.

Well, it's not ok. It's not ok for someone to invest the same number of skill points and improved parry and skill focus parry and shield parry to train how to block attacks with a two foot piece of movable armor and STILL have lower defense than someone blocking with a dagger. It is just not ok.

[Green Monster]

While I have no thoughts on your suggestions themselves, consider that the 15 Dex requirement might not represent blocking attacks with the shield, but blocking attacks with your weapon in addition to the defense the shield provides (as represented by it's AC bonus) and without being hindered in this endeavour by it's bulk.

Umm....blocking attacks is exactly what shields DO in the real world, both versions of nwn, and every server but this one. You would not be blocking with your weapon if you have a shield. That's why it's called a shield. It shields you from blows.

[Iridni Ren]

I agree that the Dex requirement is too high, but many made the same point when the feat was introduced, so I'm not sure the Devs are going to be receptive to changing it. I would prefer 13 Str and 13 Dex as requirements.

The language of "without being hindered by its bulk" connotes to me strength more than dexterity both IRL and in NWN terms. PCs overcome encumbrance, after all, through their Str rather than Dex.

[Mailbox-2100]

 The one concession I haven't seen mentioned is the Skill Point requirement for Parry you don't have to invest in with Shields. Albeit, its only one Skill you lose, its still something to consider.

[Silas Rotleaf]

Quick question: What is shield parry, physically speaking?

[TedFromDebate]

I always thought shields were more so for people who didnt want to invest in Parry, rather they be a priest who I dont think has the points to spare (or might not even be a class feature, never played priest), or other classes who didnt have the points to invest in Parry. Shield parry even now I thought was made to make bucklers/large shields more viable, since tower shields are fairly taxing on skill point penalties.

But, as a two hander boi, I think it makes sense as shields are much more for giving to people who dont know HOW to block a sword with their own. And, while one wouldn't hate to have one in duels, it makes sense that an individual (meaning if you come from a background where you went out on your own/ weren't in a tight unit) you might opt for lighter, less cumbersome ways of attack, hence the two hander exists. And while perhaps late game people without shields may rise higher (which I defer because I have never gotten a shieldbro up that far), a lot of people dont get to that far in the game, and besides that it means you can invest in other skills that parry boys cant.

And to be honest, if two handers/ no shields were completely nonviable as a defensive option, no one would ever had used two handers historically at all, which to me means that you should look at it in the perspective of what skill points can I invest in besides parry to punish those that have to put in hella parry points.

(Like antagonize, for example)

[THE STREET WARRIOR]

Dev's got it right. You would need to be dextrous and strong to move that shield around with your hands, also footwork would come into play.


Definition of dexterity

1 : readiness and grace in physical activity especially : skill and ease in using the hands

[modderpunk]

The basic blocking of sword blows is included in the ac the shield gives you. Using it to parry requires dexterity.

Also remember, the ability to avoid blows all together is also included in ac.

[Iridni Ren]

You would need to be dextrous and strong to move that shield around with your hands, also footwork would come into play.

A PC's Dex modifier affects her parrying skill, which reflects how someone with "readiness and grace in physical activity especially" would be innately superior at it to begin with. Beyond that, however, it is a trained skill. Shield Parry likewise relies on training and improves the more the PC trains: "The character has learnt how to better parry blows with a shield. When fighting with a shield, for every five skill points in Parry the character's armor class is improved by +1."

The prerequisites for the feat, on the other hand, indicate a minimum ability necessary to learn this skill. IMO the minimum abilities to move a 45 lb tower shield or even a 15 lb large shield would be at least as reliant on strength. No matter your coordination or training, if you aren't strong, you won't be able to maneuver something heavy with great skill.

[APorg]

It's important to remember that in the original Shield Parry update, Tower Shields were going to be boosted to base AC 4 to balance them up. Unfortunately that got dropped in the end because it was not technically feasible. It's a shame, and hopefully that will change; but in the interrim, I'd definitely argue that Tower Shields are lacking something.

For me, the annoying part of it is that Shields don't really feel distinguishable. Fighting with a buckler, a large shield, or a tower shield should be a completely different fighting style -- the first should be an extremely fast and agile warrior, the latter should be slow, stoic, and steady. It makes no sense for a buckler fighter to be harder to hit by a crossbow than a tower shield.

It would be nice if therefore tower shields could be given some specialisation, a reason to take them beyond the default leftover choice that you're a STR build with not enough points and Feats to put into Parry and INT. The most obvious direction to take this, IMO, is to leave bucklers as the "kings of melee combat" while making tower shields more potent against ranged attacks. Perhaps by giving them some immunity to Piercing; or perhaps eventually EE will give us more options to specialise Shields.

[Always_a_hero]

As far as I know, shields alright have a percentage chance of blocking an incoming missile (i.e. arrow or bolt). I'd think the % changes with the shield size, but I couldn't find any precise numbers. However, I agree the advantage shields grant against ranged opponents could be something to tap into, like another feat working like Deflect Arrow for monks but for shields instead based on the size category and whatnot. That way would create more variety rather than focusing on AC.

[zDark Shadowz]

As far as I know, shields alright have a percentage chance of blocking an incoming missile (i.e. arrow or bolt). I'd think the % changes with the shield size, but I couldn't find any precise numbers.

This isn't quite true. There is a ''parried" message indicating that an arrow was parried but it's exactly the same as a 'miss', it's just letting you know that your shield AC contributed toward blocking the arrow as flavour text.

[Green Monster]

Lot of people willfully missing the point and not reading the OP.

I never said anything about heavy shields and tower shields being part of the Shield Parry feat. I specifically said that they should NOT. Therefore the DEX requirement is excessive.

The statement that everyone against this keeps ignoring is that someone who uses a shield SHOULD have a significantly higher ac than someone who does not, without magic or enchantment, where parry skill and level are the same. That's what shields did in the real world. That's what they're for. That's why they were invented. Someone who prefers to forego two weapons or a two-handed, sacrificing a great deal of offense for more defense, should be able to do so. Freedom of playing style. Boosting defense vs other players instead of offense. Instead, here, there's one build that gets it all in terms of both offense and defense, and that's the two-weapon player.

Actually, you know what? I said all this two years ago. Nevermind.

[APorg]

Hey, some of us are agreeing with you

[Green Monster]

Hey, some of us are agreeing with you

Sorry. Just really frustrated that my favourite ic esthetic is a mechanical liability here and nowhere else, and not for any reason that makes any sense.

[EO]

Hey, some of us are agreeing with you

Sorry. Just really frustrated that my favourite ic esthetic is a mechanical liability here and nowhere else, and not for any reason that makes any sense.

It’s a tradeoff between Dex and Strength. If you don’t want to invest in Dexterity because you want more Strength or other stat then you’ll get less AC but in return you may dish out more damage.

The maximum AC a two hander can get is 6 from Parry but that’s if he uses leather armor. If he uses leather, to maximize his AC he’d need 22 Dex (2 AC from the armor, 6 from Dex). That’s with maximum Parry and one feat.

A two weapon build can get 9 AC total from Parry/feats but that’s once again in leather armor, so once again 22 Dex to optimize it, and at the cost of at least three feats and maximum Parry.

A tower shield build, without Parry, can go up to 7 AC with buffs on the shield regardless of armor. A tower shield with Shield Parry and maxing Parry could theoretically get 8 or 9 AC with buffs in a leather armor with 22 Dex.

A small shield build with Parry and leather, so once again 22 Dex, could get to 10 AC by maximizing Parry and taking Shield Parry.

So, yes, a tower shield build yields less AC than a small shield build or even a two weapon build but you don’t need to invest in Dex, Parry or feats, all things that you can then invest elsewhere. You still have a higher AC than a two hander who maximized Parry and had 22 Dex.

[haifisch021]

I think a neat compromise would be to introduce a feat that allows Tower Shields to gain bonus AC when around other tower shields. I understand that an aura might be a bit intensive on server resources, but maybe something with charges that you can activate like Shrouded Dance. I can see the justification for smaller shields being more effective in single combat, but in a formation tower shields have real potential. Just my two cents

[Green Monster]

Still no answer as to why someone with a dagger, or nothing at all, in their left hand can block better than someone with a shield. Or why it takes 15 dex to intercept a 2 inch wide sword with a 2 foot wide shield.

It's not a trade off. It's nonsensical catering to high dex builds. You don't get potentially more damage from not using two weapons, regardless of strength.