Author Topic: Herbalism Changes  (Read 1542 times)

aprogressivist

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2019, 08:02:01 AM »
It's more unfair to make us lose recipes we invested time and resources into unlocking. New players will have to put in more work, yes, but they do not lose anything invested. You are saying existing players should lose part of their investment with no refund.
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derkotushka

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2019, 09:06:23 AM »
There is nothing bad in grinding. Someone just likes it. Someone not.
Herbalism compare to other craftings(especially smith one!), in my opinion, was almost balanced well. Except of HEAL potion.
Herbalism crafting have own "grind" part at start when low stat character grinding light healing potions. And then character slowly, with not wasting huge amount of time(compare to smithing and with MUCH less waste of gold) reaches other most useful potions and gains herbalism levels.(invisibility, haste, deathward, negative energy shield, etc)

I like what devs added more potions and such but for this DC changes I will blame only HEAL potion.
In many-many dungeon runs it is very few times when character needed use this potions. Critical healing potions makes their good work and already player need waste good amount of time to get many critical healing potions.  It would be better just without heal-potions.

I agree with few posts, what DCs need to adjust and balance well, and perhaps change spell levels on this potions too.
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haifisch021

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2019, 12:48:29 PM »
A lot of the comments here are the result of emotions, which I totally understand. Feedback is important and we hope you'll keep forwarding them. Though I urge you to take a step back and try the system as it is now for a while before claiming this is the worse change ever. You are likely to discover there is still a lot you can accomplish and that it is even easier now for newcomers to the craft to get into it.

There will be a more thoughtful reply from the Dev team soon as to why we felt the change was important.

With all due respect MAB, that is pretty condescending of you to say. Emotions aside it is pretty clear that this change was a poorly made one. Before you dismiss the concerns of the community, I would advise you take a moment to actually address these concerns.

I have a lot of respect for you and the rest of the Dev team, and I appreciate what you do. I also understand that kickback will come with most changes and that it is important to be steadfast in the face of opposition. However, it's unfair to completely ignore everything that has been said in this thread. I hope that in this more thoughtful reply you will take the time to address the concerns of the community.

Dante101

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2019, 12:54:52 PM »
A lot of the comments here are the result of emotions, which I totally understand. Feedback is important and we hope you'll keep forwarding them. Though I urge you to take a step back and try the system as it is now for a while before claiming this is the worse change ever. You are likely to discover there is still a lot you can accomplish and that it is even easier now for newcomers to the craft to get into it.

There will be a more thoughtful reply from the Dev team soon as to why we felt the change was important.

With all due respect MAB, that is pretty condescending of you to say. Emotions aside it is pretty clear that this change was a poorly made one. Before you dismiss the concerns of the community, I would advise you take a moment to actually address these concerns.

I have a lot of respect for you and the rest of the Dev team, and I appreciate what you do. I also understand that kickback will come with most changes and that it is important to be steadfast in the face of opposition. However, it's unfair to completely ignore everything that has been said in this thread. I hope that in this more thoughtful reply you will take the time to address the concerns of the community.

+1 to this.  I'm hopeful the response we were promised today will address some of the questions and concerns that have been brought up so far.

FinalHeaven

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2019, 01:32:19 PM »
Here's the problem though - new players WILL NOT go through the same process everyone else did because those recipes were learned at DIFFERENT DCs.

A new player needs 5 more levels to make high end potions before an existing player that had learned it at a lower DC before needs to? That's pretty unfair.

As with most things on a Neverwinter Nights PW it all comes down to a matter of time and investment.  By the same logic shouldn't we be handing out gold and loot to new players to compensate for the change in dungeon difficulty over the years?  What about XP to players that miss DM events?

Eliminating other players' hard work isn't the answer.  But fixing some of the glaring issues that don't effect that is.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 01:38:35 PM by FinalHeaven »

immasturgeon

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2019, 02:12:05 PM »
As a counter to many of the negatives about this change... Yes it will require grinding to get higher but previously starter potions, say cowardice, will now, allow you to get to level 24 instead of 15. This is a single ingredient that is very commonly found. Yes the top is stretched, but this sort of change ripples throughout. You will need to get more levels but the difficulty of getting them will be blunted somewhat by the previously low level herbs getting you up further.

H

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2019, 03:56:57 PM »
Look on the bright side, low level characters who slave away collecting herbs will now be making more money since the prices will be adjusted.

Not so. The pricing for herbs has already been dropping prior to this change. Now, more herbs are needed to make a single successful product. The end result is more expensive, and in order to properly break even the cost of herb sales will have to drop too. Since the loss on making potions is increased, the potions' worth increases, but the herbs' individual worths decrease because they need to be expendable.
Rare herbs will go up in price, but the basics will drop. I presume basic herbs from around will end up coming out to about 20 GP per, give or take 5. They've seen up to a 20 GP dip depending on the person from the average price of 50 from when I started on here.

As a result, the income of low-level players from herb gathering decreases and the potions created will be more expensive. The demand for herbs only increases for starting herbalists. The supply however does not change.
---------------------------------------------------

The change of DC's up to 70 doesn't seem to be the issue, it's the imbalance of the DC's for the effects of the potions. Potions that are worth using at low levels but not high levels have high level DC's while others have low level DC's, with little semblance of direction.

buyonegetonefree

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2019, 06:14:50 PM »
My two main concerns are:

Why again changes were simply enforced and from ic perspective we should accept this as given? In general,  forums are full of references to how roleplaying is significant and highly valued. How those who called themselves 'master herbalists' should act now? Did they forgot all they knew?

Another important thing is an imbalance between casters and non-casters. I know that dnd was never balanced in this regard,  but on in low magic environment,  like PoTM is,  such changes increase the gap even further.

Hedgewife

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2019, 07:25:11 PM »
If I could succeed at something in herbalism as someone just starting... That would be nice...
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2019, 10:53:20 PM »
Not sure what the DC 70 recipe is but potions of heal aren't 'that' high. Taking back my message earlier now that I have a much clearer idea how the DCs have been calculated for the potions. Give me a month at most with no work obligations, a lazy play schedule and if I have to pick up the herbs myself.

There's a logic, with exceptions for a couple of clear reasons, and it works.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 12:37:42 AM by zDark Shadowz »
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Barlo Neverwitz

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2019, 11:08:20 AM »
So up until this update I have been passively doing herbalism with two different character to make potions as needed. This update has sewed my play experience because now I can't reach better stuff. In fact it is near impossible to get to higher DC stuff now.

Basically both characters have now given it up because crafting is not worth it compared to just going out and killing stuff. You can't even RP crafting because you end up doing it alone anyways. Let us do it quickly so we can go back to RP like this server claims to want so much.

I understand that the DCs needed to be raised because non-wis/con characters were able to make high tier stuff, but inflating the DCs to the extent of even people with stats that match it can barely hope to reach high stuff is harsh. I just wish the Dev team sees this and are atleast willing to compromise. If not it is just going to drive players away.

DM Cataclysm

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2019, 01:17:17 PM »
As long as you donít have negative modifiers to Wisdom and Constitution, you can still progress this craft as you would have before. Characters can start off with DC 15 potions and work their way up. Youíll gain crafting experience past the point that you previously would have, allowing you to reach the higher tier potions.

I definitely understand the frustration, especially for characters who had invested a lot in the craft and suddenly canít brew the potions they could before. I have more than one character that previously couldnít fail any potions and suddenly.....they can fail a lot of them! That being said - Herbalism was fairly easy compared to a lot of other crafts and returns a lot more profit compared to them also.

Smithing DCís reach into the 70 range as well. From my experience on a smithing character, it takes quite a bit more time to gather the materials you need and in general is much more expensive and time consuming to level. Thereís also quite a bit less profit to be made (unless you start gathering and get to the skill level to process Adamantine, which is even more time consuming and comes with a great deal of risk) - as what youíre making isnít consumable and fewer characters overall need it.

All in all - Iíd say donít be discouraged. While it will take more time to level the craft, it is still very useful and possible to level.

noah25

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2019, 11:46:56 PM »
As long as you donít have negative modifiers to Wisdom and Constitution, you can still progress this craft as you would have before. Characters can start off with DC 15 potions and work their way up. Youíll gain crafting experience past the point that you previously would have, allowing you to reach the higher tier potions.

I definitely understand the frustration, especially for characters who had invested a lot in the craft and suddenly canít brew the potions they could before. I have more than one character that previously couldnít fail any potions and suddenly.....they can fail a lot of them! That being said - Herbalism was fairly easy compared to a lot of other crafts and returns a lot more profit compared to them also.

Smithing DCís reach into the 70 range as well. From my experience on a smithing character, it takes quite a bit more time to gather the materials you need and in general is much more expensive and time consuming to level. Thereís also quite a bit less profit to be made (unless you start gathering and get to the skill level to process Adamantine, which is even more time consuming and comes with a great deal of risk) - as what youíre making isnít consumable and fewer characters overall need it.

All in all - Iíd say donít be discouraged. While it will take more time to level the craft, it is still very useful and possible to level.

Definitely agree. Herbalism was hands down the easiest craft which is why everyone has picked it up. There is a reason it feels like 70% of the server has some experience in herbalism and there's always a smithing shortage. Its a change sure, but I definitely do not see how its a "punishment". I have a herbalist that couldn't fail a potion before. It was nice, but I perhaps optimistically believe, it will reward those who stick with herbalism more, and certainly increase the incentive for people to party up. Before if I wanted to solo I would take any character, no matter how bad their modifiers, and master herbalism. Between haste, invisibility, healing, barksin, bulls, and cats, you don't really need a mage or cleric at lower levels. I may still be stubborn about it, but I will definitely think twice now about going out without a party.

I love soloing, still think discouraging it is a win for the server as its intended to function.

Zarathustra217

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2019, 04:45:49 AM »
To all of our fellow Prisoners:

Recent updates have significantly expanded the herbalism craft in the form of a wide variety of new herbs, recipes, and potions.

We have now had time to properly observe the impact of these additions and this, along with overall feedback provided by player herbalists, has led us to the following conclusions: firstly, that herbalism was already poorly balanced against other crafts, which all required a significantly greater commitment in terms of time and materials invested; secondly, that the relative easiness of herbalism led to an over-saturation of the market and stockpiling of potions, hindering the desired interdependency and general functioning of the player economy and making soloing or adventuring without a caster far easier than intended; and thirdly, that these preexisting problems were further exacerbated by the introduction of many new types of herbs and potions made from them.

In order to correct these issues, we made the following change: instead of setting the DCs of individual potions manually by the developers for each potion, the DC is now calculated by a regular and mathematical formula to make it easier to maintain balance:  5 + (4 * base spell level) + (3 * effective caster level), with a minimum of 15. This results in the 15 to 70 DC spread seen after the recent changes, which brings the relative difficulty of "beginner" and "expert" potions directly in line with the other crafts on the server. An alternative would be to simply limiting the spawn rate of herbs in general, but to do so would only correct the third of the three issues mentioned above and therefore we decided to go for a more fundamental fix.

In general, although we may likely make adjustments to the system as a whole, we believe that simply bringing herbalism into consistency with the other crafts is still warranted and needed. We are of course aware of the fact that this, like all changes which increase the difficulty of play, will not be favored by all, and we do not take such decisions lightly. We are also sensitive to the fact that it varies significantly how much time people have available to play, and we want crafts to be approachable and rewarding for many different players. Yet we also have to balance this carefully against the need for crafts to reward those who prioritize investing their time in these crafts and whose roleplay revolves around them.

To specifically address some concerns that have arisen: firstly, yes, this will indeed mean that this craft will take longer to master, but it should be no longer than the rest of our crafts. That is one of the intended outcome of the changes. However, as the amount of crafting XP you receive is directly related to your own skill and the DC of the potion attempted, you will continue to gain crafting XP regularly and in proportion to the difficulty of the crafting you attempt. Secondly, while we acknowledge some inevitable awkwardness from characters having difficulty with potions that were previously trivial to make, high-level herbalists should still be able to create virtually all of the potions they were able to create previously, albeit with a greater chance of failure. With some continued investment into the craft, they will arrive again at the highest level.

Again, it should be stressed that this does not mean that the current state is final and we won't be making any further adjustments. While we cannot always satisfy everyone, changes are always made with the goal of creating a better, richer, and more rewarding world for everyone and will be constantly evaluated against that. What we want to assure everyone is that we are not insensible to your feelings, your ideas, your thoughts, and your opinions, whether we agree with you or not. Obviously, we rarely (if ever) get anything completely right the first time, so there are times where we must experiment and try new things; your feedback, especially after some time spent with the new version of the system, is both valuable and necessary in determining what adjustments we'll need to make down the road. We may even need to make some changes to the difficulty and required investment of all crafting, overall, and we'll know a lot better once we see how this works out. But we ask you to participate in this process with an open mind and not pass rash judgment, doing what you can to make the ongoing discussion both constructive and amiable.

Very sincerely,

The PotM Development Team

Dante101

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Re: Herbalism Changes
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2019, 07:53:09 AM »
Thank you for the explanation and the formula behind the logic. I firmly believe that explanations like this are crucial to effectively bringing a group of people to understand why a change is being implemented, and to be less resistant to it.

After playing with the new system for a few days, it does seem well designed for the most part, but I still have my concerns. Particularly how many potions are clustered around specific break points (such as DC22, 32, 42) - but that seems to be a function of the formula. Moving from one circle of magic to the next (at minimum required caster level) will result in a 10 DC jump. I know there are other options available to craft to help bridge that 10 DC gap, but they are fairly specific. Other crafts like smithing simply require the crafter to use the existing materials they have gathered and selecting a more difficult template to move up the DC. For herbalists, this means collecting specific materials that are very likely to be seasonal.

I'll also add that leveling this craft to mastery previously - for me - took many months of focused and persistent effort. I started focusing on the craft in late 2017, and hit mastery just a few weeks back. But that is likely due to my limited play time and resources, playing a mundane character without regular access to spells to assist in gathering, and only being online a few hours on weeknights. I bring this up because of the previous comments of the resistance to this change being an emotional one. In part, I'd say that is true, at least for me - because of the aforementioned efforts made to master the craft, and my invested time and efforts are being set back as a result.

Naturally, I'll continue to try advancing this craft to return to mastery, but it seems a daunting task when put up against players that have the ability to dedicate far more time than I do. I've no doubt that with enough time and effort I'll make it - but I will once again be behind the curve.

All that said - I do greatly appreciate the time and effort the dev team has put into crafting systems (and others!) recently. I don't intend to sound ungrateful - we as a community understand that the work you do is done for free and at will. I personally only ask that you help "bring us along for the ride" with these changes with communications like the post above mine.