Author Topic: notells  (Read 4365 times)

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
notells
« on: December 18, 2018, 03:29:32 PM »
I was following the discussion of makesafe and saw that it was implemented on Aerlith. This led me to look at their wiki and their other commands:

http://wiki.arelith.com/Console_command

Here's the one I would love:

http://wiki.arelith.com/Console_command#-notells

Quote
-notells

 Toggles Tells availability on and off

Use: -notells

-notells opens a menu that allows players to control who they will receive Tells from. Optionally, a player can turn off Tells for everyone. If someone tries to send a player a Tell while they are blocked, they will receive a message telling them that the recipient has chosen not to receive Tells. If a player sends someone a Tell who cannot reply to them, then the player will get a warning reminding them of the block (but the Tell will go through).

DMs can always send you Tells, even if you have -notells on.

Although Tells are sometimes a necessary evil--just as being able to toggle off LFRP--it would be wonderful to toggle Tells off as well.

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

APorg

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Fanatic Xenophile
Re: notells
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2018, 03:32:10 PM »
+1, good idea
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Phantasia

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1336
  • ¿
Re: notells
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2018, 03:41:14 PM »
I'd rather not have to run a scene as an AMPC or even communicate something to a player in tells to clarify, only to find that the player in question has no tells turned on, and suddenly I have to do the arguably more immersion breaking thing of //Etcetcetcetc instead.
Le cœur voit plus loin que l'esprit.
The heart sees further than the mind.

APorg

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Fanatic Xenophile
Re: notells
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2018, 03:52:03 PM »
AMPCs have @voice for that, though. In my experience as an AMPC, almost all Tells are OOC.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Phantasia

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1336
  • ¿
Re: notells
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2018, 03:56:00 PM »
No, I think you misunderstand me. Nothing that I would have to clarify in a tell should ever be pushed through an @voice, even less so with //text there. Keeping lines of communication open for courtesy and informing others of what is going to happen is important.
Le cœur voit plus loin que l'esprit.
The heart sees further than the mind.

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: notells
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2018, 04:05:54 PM »
I'd rather not have to run a scene as an AMPC or even communicate something to a player in tells to clarify, only to find that the player in question has no tells turned on, and suddenly I have to do the arguably more immersion breaking thing of //Etcetcetcetc instead.

By far, the vast majority of the Tells I receive are from players I am not in a scene with at the time. Frankly, I don't really experience that much need for clarification when I'm actually RPing with a player. If there's confusion, then RP the confusion :) People misunderstand one another IRL.

Likewise, if I prefer not to receive Tells, I don't think another PC should have the right to inflict Tells on me simply because that PC is unable to express the RP ICly.

For the sake of argument, however, let's consider whether  // is "arguably" more immersion breaking.

Case 1: The AMPC (or whatever) is interacting with only one other PC. Then there is no substantive difference between the Tell and the //.

Case 2: Multiple PCs are present. Then whatever confusion has arisen would seem likely to be confusing to all those present. The Tell, in fact, informs only one PC of the clarification, as though by telepathy, which invites cheesing. WYSIWYG, after all. It would be much less disruptive to use // to clarify for everyone all at once.

Regardless, and even given there may be some cases in which Tells are--as I concede--a necessary evil, players should not have to be subjected to the far greater number of cases when they do nothing but break immersion.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 04:15:26 PM by Iridni Ren »

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

zDark Shadowz

  • Guest
Re: notells
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2018, 04:22:48 PM »
Seems like a useful option to have and I've seen other servers use similar things.

No tell functions while considered dead also up there on the list.

I disagree with the opinion that tells are a necessary evil though. Tells aren't evil, just... Irresponsible in some situations.

The option to toggle off the ability to receive tells is a useful option if you want to hunt someone down but a talkative PC suddenly sends you info on their progress in doing the same thing, inadvertantly giving you OOC info that you then have to abandon your hunt because it would otherwise be considered metagaming. Ex: 'Creature in the sewers!' Now I can't scout in my own time of my own initiative or IG findings.

Tells create situations such as the above. Having this toggle for covert OPs and potential PvP conflict & chases can simplify things where someone is closured in PvP, accuses the other of metagaming yet because the victor had closed off receiving tells DMs can see in the logs that it was all that PCs own effort.

It's self-security from meta information.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 04:24:46 PM by zDark Shadowz »

Philos

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Developers
  • Dark Lord
  • *
  • Posts: 889
  • Detruisez tous, c'est une obligation!
Re: notells
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2018, 05:04:01 PM »
I kind of like the idea. I'm more fan of blocking one or two individual people as opposed to a blanket black out but it's certainly something we should consider.

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 6423
Re: notells
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2018, 05:32:03 PM »
The "Tell" channel is invaluable to help out newcomers to the server and, as was mentionned, to clarify some circumstances without involving everyone. I cannot support blocking it.
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Castle Road, Castle Ravenloft, Village of Barovia.

Phantasia

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1336
  • ¿
Re: notells
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2018, 05:37:18 PM »
The tell system is not a "necessary evil," it is a necessity period. The DMs need to send tells to players to clarify things they are experiencing on a personal level. While the system can be tailored to not block any DM tells, it just seems cumbersome and pointless to implement when what we have now works just fine.

And if you are so easily rattled that a few lines of green text breaks your immersion, kindly state to the people sending you tells to remain IC, and not to send an egregious amount of tells to you. That simple.
Le cœur voit plus loin que l'esprit.
The heart sees further than the mind.

Marsi

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
Re: notells
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2018, 07:02:03 PM »
The tell system is not a "necessary evil," it is a necessity period. The DMs need to send tells to players to clarify things they are experiencing on a personal level. While the system can be tailored to not block any DM tells, it just seems cumbersome and pointless to implement when what we have now works just fine.

And if you are so easily rattled that a few lines of green text breaks your immersion, kindly state to the people sending you tells to remain IC, and not to send an egregious amount of tells to you. That simple.

Agreed.

I've been in situations where necessary OOC co-ordination has been prevented by -notells. On Arelith this is perhaps more of an issue, as IC communication is forbidden outside of the client. If I need to contact a player but they keep -notells on always and maintain no forum presence, there's little I can do short of involving a DM. But this is an awkward thing to do particularly if the communication is non-urgent. On Arelith at least there are many such situations where OOC communication is absolutely necessary. Perhaps on POTM, which is less player-centric, it would be less intrusive, however I still disagree with its use on principle.

What -notells is good for is temporarily blocking harrassment from a single target. When employed as a device to indulge in method "acting" and immersion, I think it unreasonably hinders storytelling, good sportsmanship, and co-ordination.
Artur Iliescu | Former Corporal of the Vallaki Garda (Retired)

TheGrinningHound

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • That's Mr. TheGrinningHound to you
Re: notells
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2018, 08:03:00 PM »
Sometimes I send people tells to ask whether or not my character would recognize them in their current outfit, or if it's a disguise.

In my opinion, if you're being harassed involve staff members. But there are little nice tidbits and messages that can certainly help coordinate a scene, and not being able to have that option or to be able to even reach the person and say, "Hey, can you turn on tells?" sounds like it might stifle those little moments of valuable OOC communication.

Even though we emphasize IC interaction and immersion, at many times we depend on OOC understanding and coordination.

HopeIsTheCarrot

  • Red Vardo Traders Front
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 598
  • Discord: HopeIsTheCarrot #5147
Re: notells
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2018, 09:39:37 PM »
I would absolutely be opposed to the banning of tells. I understand the motivation to reduce their usage, but tells serve too many necessary functions to rid them from the server.

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: notells
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 10:16:33 PM »
"Method Acting" has a specific meaning that has nothing to do with the topic and is being used simply for vague disparagement of the idea.

Quote
I've been in situations where necessary OOC co-ordination has been prevented by -notells.

This is a subjective opinion as to what is "necessary" as clearly the person using the -notell thought otherwise.

Players who don't want to use such an option would not have to. If the option winds up being detrimental to players' enjoyment, then players won't use it. That is, if using it somehow handicaps a player or makes other players not want to play with her and coordinate with her, then that's her choice. In point of fact, anyone can ignore Tells now. The only difference is, players take it personally.

Quote
The DMs need to send tells to players to clarify things they are experiencing on a personal level. While the system can be tailored to not block any DM tells, it just seems cumbersome and pointless to implement when what we have now works just fine.

DMs cannot be blocked. The second part of your response begs the question.

Quote
The "Tell" channel is invaluable to help out newcomers to the server

Those who want to help newcomers can continue to do so.

Ultimately, this is all about giving players a choice of not having other players chatting with them while they are trying to play or are involved in a scene. Those who enjoy side banter can continue to participate in it. It needn't rise to the level of reportable harassment before it gets annoying and detrimental to some players' enjoyment.

Quote
I would absolutely be opposed to the banning of tells.

This would not ban tells. It allows players to limit the amount of OOC distraction they are subjected to.

I'm slightly surprised at the level of cognitive dissonance required to believe that something is both so critical to say and yet others might block it. If people actually enjoy talking to you and your Tells are useful rather than annoying, why would anyone block you?

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Theorem Of Neutrality

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 453
  • It Do
Re: notells
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2018, 11:56:31 PM »
You conveniently didn't address this point:

Quote from: Phantasia
And if you are so easily rattled that a few lines of green text breaks your immersion, kindly state to the people sending you tells to remain IC, and not to send an egregious amount of tells to you. That simple.
Zivon de'Scusa - The Core's best Doctor Doom cosplayer since 752.

haifisch021

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: notells
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2018, 12:15:46 AM »
The "Tell" channel is invaluable to help out newcomers to the server and, as was mentionned, to clarify some circumstances without involving everyone. I cannot support blocking it.

Nothing else to really say beyond this. +1
Me miserable! which way shall I fly
Infinite wrath and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is hell; myself am hell;
And in the lowest deep a lower deep,
Still threat’ning to devour me, opens wide,
To which the hell I suffer seems a heaven.

FinalHeaven

  • Ba'al Verzi
  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1796
  • dat boi
Re: notells
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2018, 01:40:06 AM »
This seems to be a matter of development time more than anything else.  If someone wants to ignore your tells, they're going to do so regardless of whether you can literally prevent seeing them.  It's a nice feature for those who enjoy as much immersion as possible, with very little drawback.



BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2028
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: notells
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2018, 02:25:14 AM »
If someone has to communicate something OOC to you and you have your tells turned off, you’re just going to invite people forcing it throughbwith // OOC. Or worse, people are going to get tired of hit or miss tells and result to // OOC more frequently by habit. Tells are by far the lesser evil of the two. Your individual experiences, Iridni, may be unique to you, but like many things suggested for serverwide implementation and change, can lead to less than desired effect.

That being said, when you right-click the chat box and get a radial menu, can you not just click off Tells? If it’s really something you disdain that much. If there’s people you want to ‘Block’ we have a Community Council which exists to help rectify these issues, and at worst, you can contact the DM Staff regarding harassment. I’d rather not see the Arelith trend for -notells become a thing here.

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: notells
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2018, 07:54:47 AM »
One final point: Players are not to use Shout. (I don't think they can use it at all on POTM, but I've never tried.)

The presumption is that even though you may think what you have to say is "shout-worthy," it would be disruptive to the community for players to have this ability. The community (as a whole) has pre-emptively elected not to grant you that privilege.

Allowing individuals the same prerogative for what the individual wants to hear OOCly is not a radical notion, but an extension of the same idea. It is clearly more my prerogative than any other player's who I want to communicate with OOC.

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

ladylena

  • Gundie Mom
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3259
  • Meow!
Re: notells
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2018, 09:04:08 AM »
I can see this being a nice addition if you could set it for one or two individuals like philos said. But I do feel over all like this is just something that's not needed. If you don't want to be bothered with tells just ignore them. You don't have to reply to them, and if say some ampc wants to let you know that you're going to be badly impaired or mutilated as a courtesy, then they can. Instead if the option is there to black out all tells it would promote the use of the immersion breaking "//". Tells can also help to clear up if something was not clear. Not all our players speak English as a first language, so I have seen some tells making sure I understood what was meant. Heck, I've even used tells for RP purposes, like if my character is near another in stealth I may send them a tell like : "You feel like you're being watched" or "an odd scent lingers near you, out of place" Since emoting when you're stealthed breaks stealth if you want anyone to see it

As for players taking it personally.... I think having a message pop up "oh this player has blocked tells from you" would be far more insulting and makes it seem WAY more personal than if you just ignore the tell. I mean that way you can tell the person you didn't see the tell, or were crafting or whatever. But like in certain pvp situations it would be nice to turn off the tells between players, but again there is the draw back of resulting in pushing the use of the ooc remarks. Just my opinion.
Currently playing:
                          Narcissa Bogdan

Dariu

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: notells
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2018, 09:09:54 AM »
I also don't like the idea, in situations where PVP has been a thing or a hostile encounter, I like reaching out to the player to ensure theres no hurt feelings or distress on their part. While Arelith does have notells, it is something very infrequently used and often more done to players by DMs when they have griefing issues in OOC chatter.

Ociros

  • Red Vardo Traders Front
  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 45
Re: notells
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2018, 10:56:40 AM »
I dislike the idea. If you receive unwanted tells from people, then let those people know - don't just ignore them. If they persist then escalate it to a CC member.

The limitations of the medium we RP in requires occasional OOC communication, regardless of how I or others might wish it otherwise. Sometimes you just need to clarify something OOC before proceeding with a scene.

Also, if this -was- implemented, then it should work both ways; the person who has tells blocked shouldn't be able to receive messages in, nor -send- messages out.

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: notells
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2018, 11:16:46 AM »
Please remember the CC has no powers of enforcement and does not handle rulebreaks. If someone persists in contacting you after you have told them to stop, contact a DM.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

Ociros

  • Red Vardo Traders Front
  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 45
Re: notells
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2018, 11:25:03 AM »
I assumed this would fall under the "resolve conflicts" aspect of the CC. My mistake.

Arawn

  • Developers and
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 10144
  • Gwrandewch ar y cwn.
Re: notells
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2018, 11:31:27 AM »
I assumed this would fall under the "resolve conflicts" aspect of the CC. My mistake.

They mediate between two parties who are having a dispute. If you ask someone to stop contacting you, there's not really any mediation required; they just need to stop.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.